Brooks Rangers, Strome Talking Extension

[LindG1000]

10 hours ago, Capt said:

Panarin, Zib, Strome are not one and done playoffs ghosts.  They are proven playoff ghosts

 

Let's take stock of Panarin as a playoff ghost and also a point-per-game player in the playoffs, because those two things seem pretty incompatible.

[Bugg]

26 minutes ago, G1000 said:

 

Let's take stock of Panarin as a playoff ghost and also a point-per-game player in the playoffs, because those two things seem pretty incompatible.

Panarin is maddening. He is a tremendous talent, there's almost nobody who can stickhandle like him, and he does get his points. He's good for 90 points every regular season, and those are  serious accomplishments. But every 5x5  possession involves crossing the blue line, curling back along the left wall, and looking to pass. He never drives to the net despite having good speed and great shot. And then to constant passing around the perimeter. And even more deliberate on the PP. Now, those 90+ points are not nothing. But every cross ice pass is another chance for it to go bad. In each case, he's giving the goalie and the defense the chance to reset, 

 

And in the playoffs, it's even more pronounced. The time and space get compressed. And that's because over and 82 game season, while scouts know about his tendencies, but really there was a game last night and then again another tomorrow  tonight. When you're facing the same team every other night, the opposing team has seen the tape over and over had that drilled into their heads. Simply could he be so much more if he changed it up and drove the net or forced the issue, or is that never going to be part of his game? 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Bugg

[Capt]

23 minutes ago, G1000 said:

 

Let's take stock of Panarin as a playoff ghost and also a point-per-game player in the playoffs, because those two things seem pretty incompatible.

He has 5 points in 4 games this series and he's been awful, so there's that.  He also has 12 pp points in those 34 games and he's a -10.  That means he has been on the ice for more than goal per game 5on5.  It means that his line which is usually the top scoring line for his team is allowing more goals than they are scoring.  

 

Anyway I have already stated that Panarin. is somebody surrounded by the right line mates would have playoff success  and you live with his perimeter play.  

[LindG1000]

5 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Panarin is maddening. He is a tremendous talent, and he does get his points. He's good for 90 points every regular season, and those are  serious accomplishments. But every 5x5  possession involves crossing the blue line, curling back along the left wall, and looking to pass. He never drives to the net despite having good speed and great shot. And then to constant passing around the perimeter. And even more deliberate on the PP. Now, those 90+ points are not nothing. But every cross ice pass is another chance for it to go bad. In each case, he's giving the goalie and the defense the chance to reset, 

 

And in the playoffs, it's even more pronounced. The time and space get compressed. And that's because over and 82 game season, while scouts know about his tendencies, but really there was a game last night and then again another tomorrow  tonight. When you're facing the same team every other night, the opposing team has seen the tape over and over had that drilled into their heads. Simply could he be so much more if he changed it up and drove the net or forced the issue, or is that never going to be part of his game? 

 

Hey - that much I think is fair. If we want to argue that he's predictable and needs to change some things to be more threatening when the ice closes up - that's fair criticism and probably pretty accurate. Doubly so because he's actually capable of doing it; Panarin is one of maybe five players in the NHL capable of doing the things he does with the puck.

 

Predictable? Sure. Capable of creating far more chaos for opposing defenses? Absolutely. Ineffective? No sir - doubly so when you recognize that he's somehow - somehow!! - only a -1 in a series where his team has been completely bent over at 5v5. Even moreso when you look at where the rest of his minuses come from (playoff bubble, that one Chicago series where they got reamed by Nashville, are high-end culprits)

[Flynn]

45 minutes ago, G1000 said:

 

Let's take stock of Panarin as a playoff ghost and also a point-per-game player in the playoffs, because those two things seem pretty incompatible.

He had a nice game 2 and 3 from a points perspective.. but he has been 100% invisible for long periods of time, including entire games.  Points are almost like batting average, they paint part of the picture, but don't tell the whole story. 

 

Superstars are noticeable even when not on the score sheet.. Panarin, Zib, Kreider, Strome, Fox have all been invisible far too often.. This team has a bunch of "really good" but no "great" players..  Looking at that cap you'd hope to have at least one great guy. 

[Phil]

50 minutes ago, Capt said:

He has 5 points in 4 games this series and he's been awful, so there's that.  He also has 12 pp points in those 34 games and he's a -10.  That means he has been on the ice for more than goal per game 5on5.  It means that his line which is usually the top scoring line for his team is allowing more goals than they are scoring.  

 

Anyway I have already stated that Panarin. is somebody surrounded by the right line mates would have playoff success  and you live with his perimeter play.  

 

Yes. A "play-driving" center. Who is not Strome or Zibanejad based on this small sample size of games. All these players "attack" the game in the exacts same way, making it incredibly easy to defend against it, which reflects in the heat maps.

 

 

These are basically perfect representations of how ineffective the Rangers offense (and defense) are in this series. The giant red spots on offense are Panarin and Fox. It's where the Rangers are trying, and trying, and trying, and trying from, and failing, and failing, and failing, and failing from simultaneously. Because the guy in the middle isn't doing shit to help or "drive" offense.

 

The same is true on defense. Pens are attacking right up the middle and nothing is being done to stop it.

 

I'm not sure what can be done about Zibanejad other than to run it back and hope for a different result, but the story being painted in this series is clear as fucking day: change the makeup of your top-six, or expect this every year going forward.

 

Paging Nazem Kadri...

[Phil]

44 minutes ago, Flynn said:

He had a nice game 2 and 3 from a points perspective.. but he has been 100% invisible for long periods of time, including entire games.  Points are almost like batting average, they paint part of the picture, but don't tell the whole story. 

 

Superstars are noticeable even when not on the score sheet.. Panarin, Zib, Kreider, Strome, Fox have all been invisible far too often.. This team has a bunch of "really good" but no "great" players..  Looking at that cap you'd hope to have at least one great guy. 

 

Which just puts even more pressure on Lafreniere or Kakko or both to be that guy.

 

Again, I hate to say it, because the series isn't over yet, but if they roll over and die, I'd take a knife to their gut this summer and dramatically change the look of that top-six. I don't give a fuck about being first in the division or being a 100+ point team. I care about winning in the playoffs. I'll happily trade regular season standing position and/or points for a playoffs-designed composition.

 

Strome is the path of least resistance here. Arguably the "easiest" component to change.

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Bugg said:

Panarin is maddening. He is a tremendous talent, there's almost nobody who can stickhandle like him, and he does get his points. He's good for 90 points every regular season, and those are  serious accomplishments. But every 5x5  possession involves crossing the blue line, curling back along the left wall, and looking to pass. He never drives to the net despite having good speed and great shot. And then to constant passing around the perimeter. And even more deliberate on the PP. Now, those 90+ points are not nothing. But every cross ice pass is another chance for it to go bad. In each case, he's giving the goalie and the defense the chance to reset, 

 

And in the playoffs, it's even more pronounced. The time and space get compressed. And that's because over and 82 game season, while scouts know about his tendencies, but really there was a game last night and then again another tomorrow  tonight. When you're facing the same team every other night, the opposing team has seen the tape over and over had that drilled into their heads. Simply could he be so much more if he changed it up and drove the net or forced the issue, or is that never going to be part of his game? 

Exactlynwhy a few weeks ago I was saying he needs to shoot more and that playoff bread better be much different than regular season bread 

[Capt]

32 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Which just puts even more pressure on Lafreniere or Kakko or both to be that guy.

 

Again, I hate to say it, because the series isn't over yet, but if they roll over and die, I'd take a knife to their gut this summer and dramatically change the look of that top-six. I don't give a fuck about being first in the division or being a 100+ point team. I care about winning in the playoffs. I'll happily trade regular season standing position and/or points for a playoffs-designed composition.

 

Strome is the path of least resistance here. Arguably the "easiest" component to change.

Exactly right on every point.  Even if the Rangers come back and win this series, it will likely be largely because of Domingue and Shesty both returning to from.  However the point is that if this is how the Rangers intend of succeeding in the playoffs by having zero presence in front of either net, then they might as well not play.  They are going to get rolled eventually.  Does anyone really think that this is the recipe for beating Boston or Carolina?  How about winning 4 rounds?  The problem isn't one guy.  The problem is the group together.  Not to mention there is a big difference in Panarin playing on the perimeter and anyone else.  Panarin can make an difference from there, pretty much no one else can.  That's not me saying I prefer his style, it's just he can get away with things others can't because of his immense talent.  Like Kerik said though, if Panarin did change it up and go to those hard areas at times he'd be even harder to defend.  

 

Strome is the obvious change of course but to me that is not enough.  Zib is an asset that would bring a serious return.  A return that could change the makeup of the team.  Yes you may even be trading the best point producer in the trade but if it brings back a lineup wide mentality of high compete and the will to win than it has to be looked at.  I do think Laf and Kakko are the right type of guys for playoff runs.  They are big and strong and not overly flashy.  Their game is simple and straight forward and their success will be determined by the 5 feet around the goal.  Get them some centers who play that game too.  We lucked into two high draft picks, can we build around these two kids please.  They may fail and that would suck.  What would suck worse is not giving them the best chance to succeed.  

[Phil]

20 minutes ago, Capt said:

Exactly right on every point.  Even if the Rangers come back and win this series, it will likely be largely because of Domingue and Shesty both returning to from.  However the point is that if this is how the Rangers intend of succeeding in the playoffs by having zero presence in front of either net, then they might as well not play.  They are going to get rolled eventually.  Does anyone really think that this is the recipe for beating Boston or Carolina?  How about winning 4 rounds?  The problem isn't one guy.  The problem is the group together.  Not to mention there is a big difference in Panarin playing on the perimeter and anyone else.  Panarin can make an difference from there, pretty much no one else can.  That's not me saying I prefer his style, it's just he can get away with things others can't because of his immense talent.  Like Kerik said though, if Panarin did change it up and go to those hard areas at times he'd be even harder to defend.  

 

Strome is the obvious change of course but to me that is not enough.  Zib is an asset that would bring a serious return.  A return that could change the makeup of the team.  Yes you may even be trading the best point producer in the trade but if it brings back a lineup wide mentality of high compete and the will to win than it has to be looked at.  I do think Laf and Kakko are the right type of guys for playoff runs.  They are big and strong and not overly flashy.  Their game is simple and straight forward and their success will be determined by the 5 feet around the goal.  Get them some centers who play that game too.  We lucked into two high draft picks, can we build around these two kids please.  They may fail and that would suck.  What would suck worse is not giving them the best chance to succeed.  

 

The problem with trading Zibanejad is the optics. He literally signed an eight-year extension this year, last October. Ignoring the trade protection impediment for the moment and assuming they did in fact deal him, if you think doing so won't have a dramatic and negative affect on their ability to court free agents, I have a bridge to sell you. In fact, I think it would emphatically scare off any meaningful free agent entirely. Kadri, most notably. "They just signed and dumped their first-line center and I'm supposed to trust this team for the next eight years? Pass."

 

Strome being the path of least resistance is literal and pragmatic. It also gives the Panarin unit an added element it currently lacks, or lacked most of the season until Copp came.

[Pete]

Rangers gave up 14 goals in the last 2 games and we're talking about the forwards...

 

Again, don't this this outcome should shock anyone. It's going down pretty much as expected based on what we saw all year. 

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Rangers gave up 14 goals in the last 2 games and we're talking about the forwards...

 

Again, don't this this outcome should shock anyone. It's going down pretty much as expected based on what we saw all year. 

Because both things are true at once. Look at the heat maps. They really spell it out.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

The problem with trading Zibanejad is the optics. He literally signed an eight-year extension this year. Literally, in October. Ignoring the trade protection impediment and assuming they deal him, if you think doing so won't have a dramatic and negative affect on their ability to court free agents (like Kadri), I have a bridge to sell you. In fact, I think it would emphatically scare off any meaningful free agent entirely. Kadri, especially. "They just signed and dumped their first-line center and I'm supposed to trust this team for the next eight years? Pass."

 

Strome being the path of least resistance is literal and pragmatic. It also gives the Panarin unit an added element it currently lacks, or lacked most of the season until Copp came.

There's no way at all to afford Kadri unless you move Trouba.

 

We've been quibbling for weeks about how you afford EITHER Strome or Copp and now you want one player who's going to make double what they would have made alone.

 

It's just not happening. 

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

Because both things are true at once. Look at the heat maps. They really spell it out.

I looked at the heat maps. I also looked at the games. They won game 1 on a good goal that was called back. Game 3 they scored 4 goals... You should win a playoff game where you score 4. 

 

Game 4 was abysmal and that's what folks are reacting to. They idea isn't to move talent out and replace it with grit, the idea should be to add grit to your talent. They tried to do that.

 

The injuries hurt, a lot. 

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

There's no way at all to afford Kadri unless you move Trouba.

 

We've been quibbling for weeks about how you afford EITHER Strome or Copp and now you want one player who's going to make double what they would have made alone.

 

It's just not happening. 

 

Oh, no doubt. I'm using his name as a placeholder here, but I absolutely think if they get rolled, they're going walk away from Strome and look to replace him with a harder-nosed player. Maybe Dubois or Scheifele?

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

Oh, no doubt. I'm using his name as a placeholder here, but I absolutely think if they get rolled, they're going walk away from Strome and look to replace him with a harder-nosed player. Maybe Dubois or Scheifele?

I'd love Schiefele. Only name that's a clear upgrade. 

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I looked at the heat maps. I also looked at the games. They won game 1 on a good goal that was called back. Game 3 they scored 4 goals... You should win a playoff game where you score 4. 

 

Game 4 was abysmal and that's what folks are reacting to. They idea isn't to move talent out and replace it with grit, the idea should be to add grit to your talent. They tried to do that.

 

The injuries hurt, a lot. 

 

Injuries to a top-pairing defenseman and a couple of bottom-six penalty-killers are factors, yes, but they're not critical components considering the Pens are dealing with the exact same thing and lost both their starter and backup goalies.

 

I also never suggested to swap talent for grit. I said I'd be willing to cut back on pure talent to add talent with more grit. Again, placeholder names for style not for practicality, but more Matthew Tkachuk, less Artemi Panarin. More Nazem Kadri, less Ryan Strome.

 

They broke a lot of their homogeneity, but their top-six is still a pretty soft unit. I'm not sure if that's coaching or composition. Maybe both. But it's hard to watch this team — namely it's top-six players — get driven into the ground like this and accept the premise that a healthy Goodrow, Motte, and Lindgren are dramatically improving the margins.

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'd love Schiefele. Only name that's a clear upgrade. 

 

Yeah, we've gone over this a few times in the last few months. We primarily agree, I think. The whole point of moving on from Strome isn't to get worse or more expensive for the sake of getting worse or more expensive. The goal should be to improve. I just think we might disagree on exactly how to define "improve" here.

 

But this is also why I wanted to kind of table this conversation until after the series. They're not dead yet, and I hate talking like they are, even though it's kind of my own fault.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Injuries to a top-pairing defenseman and a couple of bottom-six penalty-killers are factors, yes, but they're not critical components considering the Pens are dealing with the exact same thing and lost both their starter and backup goalies.

 

I also never suggested to swap talent for grit. I said I'd be willing to cut back on pure talent to add talent with more grit. Again, placeholder names for style not for practicality, but more Matthew Tkachuk, less Artemi Panarin. More Nazem Kadri, less Ryan Strome.

 

They broke a lot of their homogeneity, but their top-six is still a pretty soft unit. I'm not sure if that's coaching or composition. Maybe both. But it's hard to watch this team — namely it's top-six players — get driven into the ground like this and accept the premise that a healthy Goodrow, Motte, and Lindgren are dramatically improving the margins.

I don't think you're giving Goodrow and Lindgren injuries nearly enough credit, especially Goodrow because he's the guy you can inject in the top 6 in games like G4 and have him drag guys into the fight. There's no one like him in our bottom 6.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Yeah, we've gone over this a few times in the last few months. We primarily agree, I think. The whole point of moving on from Strome isn't to get worse or more expensive for the sake of getting worse or more expensive. The goal should be to improve. I just think we might disagree on exactly how to define "improve" here.

 

But this is also why I wanted to kind of table this conversation until after the series. They're not dead yet, and I hate talking like they are, even though it's kind of my own fault.

I'm all for improving any position, but to your point there is no name + realistic price tag mentioned that's a clear improvement and worth upsetting your premier forward (who you're tied to for another 5 seasons).

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't think you're giving Goodrow and Lindgren injuries nearly enough credit, especially Goodrow because he's the guy you can inject in the top 6 in games like G4 and have him drag guys into the fight. There's no one like him in our bottom 6.

 

You might be right, but I'm just having a hard time seeing it. I didn't even see game four, and I'm just really dejected with how this team appears to have quit.

 

[LindG1000]

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

The problem with trading Zibanejad is the optics. He literally signed an eight-year extension this year, last October. Ignoring the trade protection impediment for the moment and assuming they did in fact deal him, if you think doing so won't have a dramatic and negative affect on their ability to court free agents, I have a bridge to sell you. In fact, I think it would emphatically scare off any meaningful free agent entirely. Kadri, most notably. "They just signed and dumped their first-line center and I'm supposed to trust this team for the next eight years? Pass."

 

Strome being the path of least resistance is literal and pragmatic. It also gives the Panarin unit an added element it currently lacks, or lacked most of the season until Copp came.

 

Ignoring the absurdity of the idea to begin with, the other problem with trading Zibanejad is designing the trade. You need a return to make it worthwhile, a team with the cap space, Zib's approval - those three factors alone make it nearly impossible.

[BrooksBurner]

40 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't think you're giving Goodrow and Lindgren injuries nearly enough credit, especially Goodrow because he's the guy you can inject in the top 6 in games like G4 and have him drag guys into the fight. There's no one like him in our bottom 6.

You could make a justifiable argument that those two guys are most fit for playoff hockey on this team’s roster, and they are hurt. In fact, both guys Drury explicitly brought in over the summer for this purpose are not playing (Blais and Goodrow). One of the guys acquired at deadline explicitly for this purpose is not playing in Motte. It feels like the injuries have struck us where it hurt the most and we’ve been sent back to a lineup that looks more like last years.

 

With all that said, it’s really hard to complain too much when the Penguins are starting a 3rd string goalie, missing their top 6 winger deadline acquisition in Rackell, and missing their own top pairing defensemen in Dumoulin. But they still have all of their most experienced playoff players intact.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Zib is obviously not gonna be traded the same summer his 8 year extension kicks in just because he's looked bad against Crosby for 3 games. Come on.

 

They do need to change up the top 6, and they will. Kreider, Mika and Bread are probably the only three from the current top 6 to come back, maybe one of Strome or Copp. We'll have 2 or 3 open spots in the top 6, one should be for Laf, who's shown he's capable of mixing it up and not just being a perimeter passer like the rest. The last spot or two we'll find by UFA or trade.

 

We also need a 3rd or 4th line that's defensively capable that we can put out on a D-zone draw against the oponents top teams. We're using our 1st line as a shutdown-line and it's not working. That should be the 3rd or 4th line. Injuries fucked us here, because a "4th line" of Motte - Goodrow - Blais/Rooney/Hunt/Reaves would be perfect for this.

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

You could make a justifiable argument that those two guys are most fit for playoff hockey on this team’s roster, and they are hurt. In fact, both guys Drury explicitly brought in over the summer for this purpose are not playing (Blais and Goodrow). One of the guys acquired at deadline explicitly for this purpose is not playing in Motte. It feels like the injuries have struck us where it hurt the most and we’ve been sent back to a lineup that looks more like last years.

 

With all that said, it’s really hard to complain too much when the Penguins are starting a 3rd string goalie, missing their top 6 winger deadline acquisition in Rackell, and missing their own top pairing defensemen in Dumoulin. But they still have all of their most experienced playoff players intact.

Aside from goaltending, yes the players they lost were luxuries where we lost necessities.  Agree there.