Motorsports Formula 1 Discussion

[4EverRangerFrank]

Masi out!

 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.michael-masi-replaced-as-race-director-amid-fia-structural-changes.174xskJuXpEIAiXPQ98oPE.html

[Karan]

No surprise, I think the writing was on the wall. Even if he didn't break any rules, it was important to get him out to have a fresh start and erase some of that bad taste from fan's memories. Although I wonder if by removing Masi, this indirectly implicates that they screwed up in Abu Dhabi and forever puts an asterisk next to the race result Mercedes/Hamilton fans will no doubt be arguing about this for years to come...

[NY Chief]

Masi out!

MB gets their way?

[Karan]

Damn I'm loving the retro livery of the new Ferrari. Throwback to the scarlet red + black wing Ferrari's of the late 80s/early 90s. These 2022 cars so far have all been pretty damn sexy (aside from the Haas). 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Karan

[Morphinity 2.0]

1 hour ago, Karan said:

Damn I'm loving the retro livery of the new Ferrari. Throwback to the scarlet red + black wing Ferrari's of the late 80s/early 90s. These 2022 cars so far have all been pretty damn sexy (aside from the Haas). 

 

 

Best one yet, I think. I also liked Williams' entry. 

[Marc]

11 hours ago, 4EverRangerFrank said:

Masi out!

 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.michael-masi-replaced-as-race-director-amid-fia-structural-changes.174xskJuXpEIAiXPQ98oPE.html

I still don’t think Michael Masi made that call.  I think he was told to get them racing no matter the consequences, and he’d be protected.  And he is being protected.  

[Karan]

11 hours ago, Marc said:

I still don’t think Michael Masi made that call.  I think he was told to get them racing no matter the consequences, and he’d be protected.  And he is being protected.  

 

Indeed Marc. I know the media (particularly the British media) enjoys painting the picture that Masi made the decision solely influenced by Jonathan Wheatley (RB Team Manager). But let's remember that Masi was in a control room with tons of data/monitors, surrounded by a bunch of other FIA officials. Not like he was sitting in a trailer by himself with only the teams in his ear. I think he was trying to make the best decision in terms of racing, with the data he had in hand, and in the end of course it looks like he was favoring one team, because someone had to lose. I do think the FIA system for making such decisions is slightly broken though and needs some work, not to mention more manpower to support the race director.

 

Thanks to the pressure from Mercedes (let's not forget they only threatened to drop their appeal if the FIA made changes), Masi's been made the scapegoat. 

[4EverRangerFrank]

Scapegoat is a good way of phrasing it. ‘Fired’ has strong connotations, like, “You are out of this company!” and that is clearly not what’s happening if he is being reassigned. Hoping whatever changes come, there is fairness for everyone going forward. 

[Karan]

First the Aston Martin, then the Williams, then the Ferrari...and now the Merc. Damn the trend of sexy 2022 cars continues. This looks so good and I'm sure glad they finally went back to the classic Mercedes silver.

 

 

[Scott]

Would be great if it happened and they were able to somehow be competitive at some point.

[Marc]

23 hours ago, Karan said:

 

Indeed Marc. I know the media (particularly the British media) enjoys painting the picture that Masi made the decision solely influenced by Jonathan Wheatley (RB Team Manager). But let's remember that Masi was in a control room with tons of data/monitors, surrounded by a bunch of other FIA officials. Not like he was sitting in a trailer by himself with only the teams in his ear. I think he was trying to make the best decision in terms of racing, with the data he had in hand, and in the end of course it looks like he was favoring one team, because someone had to lose. I do think the FIA system for making such decisions is slightly broken though and needs some work, not to mention more manpower to support the race director.

 

Thanks to the pressure from Mercedes (let's not forget they only threatened to drop their appeal if the FIA made changes), Masi's been made the scapegoat. 

the Wheatley broadcast looks bad, only because of what Masi said after the race ended.  And he only said that because didn’t really have any other explanation for his actions.  What Wheatley said was never of any consequence.  Although it might be used in the report which is why we’re being greased now.  
 

And we still have questions.  Why does a man of Michael Masi’s experience simply abandon everything he knows backwards?  We’ve been offered zero explanation.  Why was a man of that much experience, with such a relatively quiet and uneventful race mostly behind him, so indecisive during what was essentially a routine safety car protocol?   The time and place should be of zero consequence and Masi would have learned that on day one of his apprenticeship.  Even if one wants to believe that his brain shorted out to such a huge degree, the man made one of the biggest errors in the history of the sport, yet retains a position in the FIA.    The whole episode is ludicrously transparent in its audacity.  
 

The FIA are obviously having a lot of issues trying to figure out how to present what actually happened.  Why is that?  And if they lie, and it comes out, it could do irreparable damage to the sport.  
 

Masi wasn’t made the scapegoat because of Mercedes and their threat to appeal.  Michael Masi agreed to be the scapegoat at Abu Dhabi and has known all along he’d be protected.  

Edited February 19, 2022 by Marc

[Karan]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

the Wheatley broadcast looks bad, only because of what Masi said after the race ended.  And he only said that because didn’t really have any other explanation for his actions.  What Wheatley said was never of any consequence.  Although it might be used in the report which is why we’re being greased now.  
 

And we still have questions.  Why does a man of Michael Masi’s experience simply abandon everything he knows backwards?  We’ve been offered zero explanation.  Why was a man of that much experience, with such a relatively quiet and uneventful race mostly behind him, so indecisive during what was essentially a routine safety car protocol?   The time and place should be of zero consequence and Masi would have learned that on day one of his apprenticeship.  Even if one wants to believe that his brain shorted out to such a huge degree, the man made one of the biggest errors in the history of the sport, yet retains a position in the FIA.    The whole episode is ludicrously transparent in its audacity.  
 

The FIA are obviously having a lot of issues trying to figure out how to present what actually happened.  Why is that?  And if they lie, and it comes out, it could do irreparable damage to the sport.  
 

Masi wasn’t made the scapegoat because of Mercedes and their threat to appeal.  Michael Masi agreed to be the scapegoat at Abu Dhabi and has known all along he’d be protected.  

 

As far as I know the report hasn't yet been released has it? It's taken excessively long but let's see what they say. The logical thing to do would've been red flag the race to have a fair fight for everyone. But Masi had even said on Thursday before the weekend that if there was an accident at that particular corner, it would be a SC not a red flag. So he was just sticking to his word there. He could've changed his word of course, but there was some basis for his reasoning. What there wasn't any explanation for was why only 5 cars were allowed to unlap themselves rather than all or none. For that we need to wait and see if the FIA can come up with a convincing reason.

But make no mistake that Mercedes had a lot of say in what happened with Masi. I think just about everyone can see that Mercedes are like the Mafia of F1 and Wolff is The Godfather. The guy has a lot of clout behind the scenes. They all but threatened to take the FIA to court over the results and tarnish their image, if they didn't do an "investigation" with the sole purpose of giving Masi the boot. It's pretty short sighted putting the blame squarely on Masi. The guy has a tough enough job as it is without the team bosses in his year. I can't wait to see the public's reaction when the new race directors fail at making "perfect" decisions all the time and then we'll get to watch Wolff/Hamilton cry again until they're fired.

[Marc]

3 hours ago, Karan said:

 

As far as I know the report hasn't yet been released has it? It's taken excessively long but let's see what they say. The logical thing to do would've been red flag the race to have a fair fight for everyone. But Masi had even said on Thursday before the weekend that if there was an accident at that particular corner, it would be a SC not a red flag. So he was just sticking to his word there. He could've changed his word of course, but there was some basis for his reasoning. What there wasn't any explanation for was why only 5 cars were allowed to unlap themselves rather than all or none. For that we need to wait and see if the FIA can come up with a convincing reason.

But make no mistake that Mercedes had a lot of say in what happened with Masi. I think just about everyone can see that Mercedes are like the Mafia of F1 and Wolff is The Godfather. The guy has a lot of clout behind the scenes. They all but threatened to take the FIA to court over the results and tarnish their image, if they didn't do an "investigation" with the sole purpose of giving Masi the boot. It's pretty short sighted putting the blame squarely on Masi. The guy has a tough enough job as it is without the team bosses in his year. I can't wait to see the public's reaction when the new race directors fail at making "perfect" decisions all the time and then we'll get to watch Wolff/Hamilton cry again until they're fired.

the report has not been released.  And is apparently not ready for release.  What on Earth is so complicated, or so incriminating, that figuring it out, or covering it up, is taking this long?  The last time an investigation took this long, they couldn’t think of any excuses, so they just sealed it.  SMHID.  
 

I don’t think the incident warranted a red flag to be honest.  It was an unspectacular, not unusual, safety car situation, that should have been afforded the regular safety car protocol.    
 

The whole Mafia talk within F1 is a bit silly really.  If Masi had simply applied the rules correctly, the rules he stated at Eifel last year, then none of this would’ve happened.  It’s very simple.  It’s Toto Wolfe’s job to do what he does.  Is he not meant to put his best foot forward?  
 

I don’t think Mercedes blame Masi at this point.  And no one believes that simply firing Michael Masi will miraculously fix something that is rotten.  There just isn’t a place for Masi near a Formula event anymore.  

Edited February 19, 2022 by Marc

[Karan]

7 hours ago, Marc said:

the report has not been released.  And is apparently not ready for release.  What on Earth is so complicated, or so incriminating, that figuring it out, or covering it up, is taking this long?  The last time an investigation took this long, they couldn’t think of any excuses, so they just sealed it.  SMHID.  
 

I don’t think the incident warranted a red flag to be honest.  It was an unspectacular, not unusual, safety car situation, that should have been afforded the regular safety car protocol.    
 

The whole Mafia talk within F1 is a bit silly really.  If Masi had simply applied the rules correctly, the rules he stated at Eifel last year, then none of this would’ve happened.  It’s very simple.  It’s Toto Wolfe’s job to do what he does.  Is he not meant to put his best foot forward?  
 

I don’t think Mercedes blame Masi at this point.  And no one believes that simply firing Michael Masi will miraculously fix something that is rotten.  There just isn’t a place for Masi near a Formula event anymore.  

 

Yeah it's a bit odd how they've taken 3+ months to conclude the investigation and release a report. I would've thought something like this would be a month tops. Especially with all the negative publicity on the outcome.

 

I didn't say the incident warranted a red flag. It definitely didn't, not by a long shot. As I said, Masi himself said an accident at that car would be handled by safety car. But the point here being, the intention was to have green flag racing to the chequered flag, and the cleanest way to do that was a red flag (aka standing restart), and not lose time behind the SC while the mess got cleaned up. 

 

I think it's rather naive for one to think that Mercedes and Wolff don't have heavy influence on how F1 and the FIA operate. This is not exactly a new situation. They appear to have had heavy influence in the sports operations/rule-making for a few years now. And it's not like they even hide it. Go back and watch Wolff arguing not to put a Safety Car out earlier in the race as it would mess with their strategy. Now we going to have team bosses put safety over their own strategy? Unfortunately they've tried to influence plenty of other things behind the scenes with regards to the regulations and getting other teams penalized. Frankly I think the sport would be a better place without them in it. Or at least the current Mercedes management. 

 

I don't agree that what Wolff's been doing is part of his job. Putting his best foot forward would be focusing on his own team and helping them move forward and deal with challenges. If he was actually doing only his job, he wouldn't be constantly meddling in how F1/FIA go about their business and would focus on his own team. And then on top of that you factor in the diva Hamilton pouting over the incident...and lo and behold, you've got a heavily Mercedes-influenced outcome with Masi being made the scapegoat in what was overall a poorly executed decision due to Masi's job being made harder than it should've been (i.e. not enough manpower, need for tighter regulations and team members constantly in his ear). 

 

If you think Mercedes don't blame Masi at this point, I suggest you take a listen to Wolff's comments at the 2022 car launch. The guy is a brilliant politician that's able to dupe most people with his words, but I can see right thorough his word games. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Karan

[Marc]

12 hours ago, Karan said:

 

Yeah it's a bit odd how they've taken 3+ months to conclude the investigation and release a report. I would've thought something like this would be a month tops. Especially with all the negative publicity on the outcome.

 

I didn't say the incident warranted a red flag. It definitely didn't, not by a long shot. As I said, Masi himself said an accident at that car would be handled by safety car. But the point here being, the intention was to have green flag racing to the chequered flag, and the cleanest way to do that was a red flag (aka standing restart), and not lose time behind the SC while the mess got cleaned up. 

 

I think it's rather naive for one to think that Mercedes and Wolff don't have heavy influence on how F1 and the FIA operate. This is not exactly a new situation. They appear to have had heavy influence in the sports operations/rule-making for a few years now. And it's not like they even hide it. Go back and watch Wolff arguing not to put a Safety Car out earlier in the race as it would mess with their strategy. Now we going to have team bosses put safety over their own strategy? Unfortunately they've tried to influence plenty of other things behind the scenes with regards to the regulations and getting other teams penalized. Frankly I think the sport would be a better place without them in it. Or at least the current Mercedes management. 

 

I don't agree that what Wolff's been doing is part of his job. Putting his best foot forward would be focusing on his own team and helping them move forward and deal with challenges. If he was actually doing only his job, he wouldn't be constantly meddling in how F1/FIA go about their business and would focus on his own team. And then on top of that you factor in the diva Hamilton pouting over the incident...and lo and behold, you've got a heavily Mercedes-influenced outcome with Masi being made the scapegoat in what was overall a poorly executed decision due to Masi's job being made harder than it should've been (i.e. not enough manpower, need for tighter regulations and team members constantly in his ear). 

 

If you think Mercedes don't blame Masi at this point, I suggest you take a listen to Wolff's comments at the 2022 car launch. The guy is a brilliant politician that's able to dupe most people with his words, but I can see right thorough his word games. 

Well, I’m not repeating any lines from Mercedes or Wolfe so I guess his hypnotic political brilliance is not working on me, as easily dupable as us rabble are… 

 

The most influential team in the sport as far rules, regulations, power and revenue allocation, is Ferrari, by miles.  No one comes close.  It may change now that we don’t have that poisonous narcissistic sociopath in charge, but his negative effects will be long lasting.

 

Toto Wolfe is doing his job.  The team he’s in charge of has dominated a sport that dominance is not good for.  The team have risen to every challenge.  Again, lobbying during the race is something all the teams are doing.  I too hope that changes.  But to only point at Wolfe when we can point at incidents where Red Bull gets to choose their preferred penalty option seems a little blinkered.  Hamilton takes time off of social media, and it’s extreme toxicity at a low point in his life, and even that is a negative?  That’s a bit spiteful.  
 

I’ve nothing against Max, I don’t mind his elbows out driving style, but I would have more respect for him if he didn’t complain so much when he gets elbowed back.  But that’s probably more to do with Horner, Marko, and the RBR marketing strategy in general.  They’ve dragged the sport to the lowest level of fan culture I’ve experienced.  Would be a shame to see it become football.

 

Masi had a simple racing event decision to make that night.  It was a collision that required a safety car, and the required safety car protocol.  It wasn’t complicated.  The track staff and the clerk of the course are experienced so there is nothing to point at there.  There really is no defense for it.  And that’s where the real interesting questions begin. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Marc

[Karan]

On 2/20/2022 at 5:59 AM, Marc said:

Well, I’m not repeating any lines from Mercedes or Wolfe so I guess his hypnotic political brilliance is not working on me, as easily dupable as us rabble are… 

 

The most influential team in the sport as far rules, regulations, power and revenue allocation, is Ferrari, by miles.  No one comes close.  It may change now that we don’t have that poisonous narcissistic sociopath in charge, but his negative effects will be long lasting.

 

Toto Wolfe is doing his job.  The team he’s in charge of has dominated a sport that dominance is not good for.  The team have risen to every challenge.  Again, lobbying during the race is something all the teams are doing.  I too hope that changes.  But to only point at Wolfe when we can point at incidents where Red Bull gets to choose their preferred penalty option seems a little blinkered.  Hamilton takes time off of social media, and it’s extreme toxicity at a low point in his life, and even that is a negative?  That’s a bit spiteful.  
 

I’ve nothing against Max, I don’t mind his elbows out driving style, but I would have more respect for him if he didn’t complain so much when he gets elbowed back.  But that’s probably more to do with Horner, Marko, and the RBR marketing strategy in general.  They’ve dragged the sport to the lowest level of fan culture I’ve experienced.  Would be a shame to see it become football.

 

Masi had a simple racing event decision to make that night.  It was a collision that required a safety car, and the required safety car protocol.  It wasn’t complicated.  The track staff and the clerk of the course are experienced so there is nothing to point at there.  There really is no defense for it.  And that’s where the real interesting questions begin. 

 

Well it's not hard to see that the British media, particularly Sky F1, regularly lap up Wolff's savvy political statements every race weekend, suck right up to him and hold him up on some pedestal. He's about as fake a person in the paddock as they come. But I'll give him credit, he's definitely perfected his art of being a slick politician so I'm sure it won't be long before he's running for the FIA President position once he's had enough of Mercedes.

 

To be honest it's a stretch to say Ferrari are still the most influential team in the sport by miles. This ain't the 90s anymore. Yes they still have a veto when it come to certain rule changes, something which they had deservedly negotiated years ago due to their long involvement in the sport. But they're definitely not as powerful as they once were. Similarly, I'm not sure if you're aware of how revenue allocation works in the sport's current commercial agreements. Again, you're referring to a thing of the past. It's performance based now. Those days are long gone now and the likes of Mercedes stand on equal footing with them more or less, and they certainly take full advantage of that...

 

And referring to Jean Todt as a poisonous narcissistic sociopath just goes to prove that you're completely clueless. Try not to go with what your herd of fellow fanboys are parroting on the forums but rather try to research into what the man has actually done on a personal level for various individuals, improving safety in F1 and in developing countries etc. He couldn't be further from a poisonous narcissistic sociopath. 

 

I still disagree that Wolff's only doing his job. If he was doing only his job, he'd be focusing on his own team rather than trying to meddle in how the sport is governed and how the races are ran. And let's not forget that a big reason for that dominance, which just about ruined the sport, was down to Wolff/Mercedes meddling in the rule changes to maintain their power train advantage, which I thought was pretty disingenuous but that's another topic. And from the examples that have been broadcasted, I personally haven't seen all teams lobbying how the races are ran so I'm not sure what you're referring to. There's actually a big difference between trying to direct when a safety car comes in out or not, versus whining about a penalty like Red Bull and other teams do. If you're unable to see the difference, then no offence but I feel like the only blinkered opinion here might be yours...

 

Hamilton's fully entitled to take time off social media whenever he wants of course. But the guy is such a diva, anyone can see right through it. He loves the attention doesn't he? Take for example his comments after Abu Dhabi: We'll see about next year. Then at the new car launch saying: I never said I would leave F1. Yea, okay pal everyone knows you wanted to keep people guessing just to create more drama and attention on yourself, before making a grand re-entrance, while having no intentions of actually leaving. But that's Hamilton for ya...

 

I agree that Verstappen has a super uncompromising style, but that's what's made him so successful and hard to contend for other drivers, even Hamilton. I'll agree on one point that he does complain quite a bit when other drivers get their elbows out against him. Then all of a sudden they're in the wrong. But let's not forget he's only what 24-25? Hamilton was ten times the whiner at that age when he entered F1. Marko is a senile old fool and no one really pays any serious attention to his comments, but I'm a little confused by what you mean about Red Bull having dragged the sport to the lowest level of fan culture? Red Bull have done way more for the sport's marketing and image than many other teams combined.

 

Well I don't think there was anything simple about the decision Masi had on his hands so to sit on our couches and try to oversimplify is a case of hindsight being 20/20. He had to oversee the clean-up of the incident, decide what to do with the lapped cars, proper timing to re-start the race to avoid having the WC decided under a SC. All while having multiple team members whining in his ear. Not sure what you mean about there being no defense about it but I'm guessing you may not be aware of the specific paragraphs in the sporting regulation which actually allow the race director full discretion to allow some (not all) of lapped cars through. While his reasoning may have been questionable (and hopefully we'll get to find out what it was), but what he technically did was not illegal or out of the code. 

 

Anyway, that ended up being way longer of a post than I had intended. I'm not sure if anything fruitful will come out of trying to debate with a Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy. God only knows that social media is rife with them. So to avoid cluttering up this thread for the other guys, I'm just going to go ahead and add you to my ignore list (feel free to do the same). Enjoy the season. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Karan

[Marc]

3 hours ago, Karan said:

 

Well it's not hard to see that the British media, particularly Sky F1, regularly lap up Wolff's savvy political statements every race weekend, suck right up to him and hold him up on some pedestal. He's about as fake a person in the paddock as they come. But I'll give him credit, he's definitely perfected his art of being a slick politician so I'm sure it won't be long before he's running for the FIA President position once he's had enough of Mercedes.

 

To be honest it's a stretch to say Ferrari are still the most influential team in the sport by miles. This ain't the 90s anymore. Yes they still have a veto when it come to certain rule changes, something which they had deservedly negotiated years ago due to their long involvement in the sport. But they're definitely not as powerful as they once were. Similarly, I'm not sure if you're aware of how revenue allocation works in the sport's current commercial agreements. Again, you're referring to a thing of the past. It's performance based now. Those days are long gone now and the likes of Mercedes stand on equal footing with them more or less, and they certainly take full advantage of that...

 

I still disagree that Wolff's only doing his job. If he was doing only his job, he'd be focusing on his own team rather than trying to meddle in how the sport is governed and how the races are ran. And let's not forget that a big reason for that dominance, which just about ruined the sport, was down to Wolff/Mercedes meddling in the rule changes to maintain their power train advantage, which I thought was pretty disingenuous but that's another topic. And from the examples that have been broadcasted, I personally haven't seen all teams lobbying how the races are ran so I'm not sure what you're referring to. There's actually a big difference between trying to direct when a safety car comes in out or not, versus whining about a penalty like Red Bull and other teams do. If you're unable to see the difference, then no offence but I feel like the only blinkered opinion here might be yours...

 

Hamilton's fully entitled to take time off social media whenever he wants of course. But the guy is such a diva, anyone can see right through it. He loves the attention doesn't he? Take for example his comments after Abu Dhabi: We'll see about next year. Then at the new car launch saying: I never said I would leave F1. Yea, okay pal everyone knows you wanted to keep people guessing just to create more drama and attention on yourself, before making a grand re-entrance, while having no intentions of actually leaving. But that's Hamilton for ya...

 

I agree that Verstappen has a super uncompromising style, but that's what's made him so successful and hard to contend for other drivers, even Hamilton. I'll agree on one point that he does complain quite a bit when other drivers get their elbows out against him. Then all of a sudden they're in the wrong. But let's not forget he's only what 24-25? Hamilton was ten times the whiner at that age when he entered F1. Marko is a senile old fool and no one really pays any serious attention to his comments, but I'm a little confused by what you mean about Red Bull having dragged the sport to the lowest level of fan culture? Red Bull have done way more for the sport's marketing and image than many other teams combined.

 

Well I don't think there was anything simple about the decision Masi had on his hands so to sit on our couches and try to oversimplify is a case of hindsight being 20/20. He had to oversee the clean-up of the incident, decide what to do with the lapped cars, proper timing to re-start the race to avoid having the WC decided under a SC. All while having multiple team members whining in his ear. Not sure what you mean about there being no defense about it but I'm guessing you may not be aware of the specific paragraphs in the sporting regulation which actually allow the race director full discretion to allow some (not all) of lapped cars through. While his reasoning may have been questionable (and hopefully we'll get to find out what it was), but what he technically did was not illegal or out of the code. 

 

Anyway, that ended up being way longer of a post than I had intended. I'm not sure if anything fruitful will come out of trying to debate with a Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy. God only knows that social media is rife with them. So to avoid cluttering up this thread for the other guys, I'm just going to go ahead and add you to my ignore list (feel free to do the same). Enjoy the season. 

 

 

oh stop it with the fan boy stuff… we’re adults aren’t we?

 

I don’t see what Sky TV broadcasts, I can’t get Sky in Finland.  

 

You look at everything through the lens of someone who simply resents the success of MB, Wolfe, and Hamilton.  Mercedes wins, and the easy excuse is that they run the sport.  It’s all meddling and other silly claims.  Yes, Mercedes meddled in removing 9 vital components from their own floor.  Is that what you’re claiming?  
Their dominance ruins the sport… what a terrible attitude.  How about you just make a better car, challenge   them and leave it at that??  And when they fight back, when they elbow back, don’t complain.  It’s why we’re here.  

 

Masi literally gave Jonathan Wheatley an option of what penalty they would prefer… and Mercedes are favored and running the show?
 

Verstappen literally assaulted a fellow driver in the paddock… but Hamilton “whines”.  Verstappen stamps his feet off of the podium but Hamilton is a diva… it never ends.  And if age is an excuse for Verstappen’s unsocial behavior, then I submit that sheer volume of success being more than a reason for Hamilton’s.  
 

It doesn’t say “some” in the sporting regulations.  It says any.  The “any doesn’t mean all” line was bs made up by Red Bulls lawyers after the race in Abu Dhabi.  The FIA stated in their ruling that evening that all rules may not have been fully followed.
 

By all means ignore the truth… social media is rife with the same delusion.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by Marc

[Karan]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:46 PM, Marc said:

oh stop it with the fan boy stuff… we’re adults aren’t we?

 

I don’t see what Sky TV broadcasts, I can’t get Sky in Finland.  

 

You look at everything through the lens of someone who simply resents the success of MB, Wolfe, and Hamilton.  Mercedes wins, and the easy excuse is that they run the sport.  It’s all meddling and other silly claims.  Yes, Mercedes meddled in removing 9 vital components from their own floor.  Is that what you’re claiming?  
Their dominance ruins the sport… what a terrible attitude.  How about you just make a better car, challenge   them and leave it at that??  And when they fight back, when they elbow back, don’t complain.  It’s why we’re here.  

 

Masi literally gave Jonathan Wheatley an option of what penalty they would prefer… and Mercedes are favored and running the show?
 

Verstappen literally assaulted a fellow driver in the paddock… but Hamilton “whines”.  Verstappen stamps his feet off of the podium but Hamilton is a diva… it never ends.  And if age is an excuse for Verstappen’s unsocial behavior, then I submit that sheer volume of success being more than a reason for Hamilton’s.  
 

It doesn’t say “some” in the sporting regulations.  It says any.  The “any doesn’t mean all” line was bs made up by Red Bulls lawyers after the race in Abu Dhabi.  The FIA stated in their ruling that evening that all rules may not have been fully followed.
 

By all means ignore the truth… social media is rife with the same delusion.  

 

Oh what's wrong, you didn't like the Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy comment? I guess you must not like hearing the truth either then...

 

No I actually don't look at it through the lens of resenting Mercedes/Hamilton's success for the simple fact that I've watched the sport for long enough now to have lived through the Ferrari/Schumacher and Red Bull/Vettel domination eras and what effect they had on the sport. But the difference here is that Hamilton walked into a team that was on the up and had success handed to him on a platter, and Wolff did everything in his power to keep the rules the same to benefit them and severely compromise Ferrari/Renault/Honda ability to develop their power units. What Mercedes/Wolff have done behind the scenes has single handedly driven viewership/ratings, turned away fans and nearly ruined the sport. Yet Hamilton and Wolff likes to go on the air and claim how much he loves competition and purity of the sport. That's laughable. Their actions have never correlated with their words but yet they keep spewing that angle because much of the media and their fanboys, like the one we have here, will lap it right up...

 

I thought the two examples were pretty self-explanatory but I guess I do have to explain this again as I realize it might be difficult for a Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy to be able to recognize the difference. So let's go over this slowly. Wheatley arguing with Masi about what penalty to give Verstappen over an illegal pass has absolutely nothing to do with safe control of a race unlike Wolff literally telling Masi to disregard the marshall's safety and not to put out a safety car as it would negatively affect Hamilton's race. 

 

Verstappen literally assaulted another driver in a paddock? Exaggeration at it's best, but yea okay. I'm not sure if you watched F1 in the 80s and early 90s if you think that's assault. Also you may want to Google/YouTube the number of examples of Hamilton sulking on the podium when things didn't go his way, trust me it won't take you long to find multiple instances. Verstappen might be bit of a brat at times but at least he's real. I'll take the brat any day over Hamilton's fakeness. At the end of the day, everyone knows Verstappen is entitled and has a huge ego, but only the most deluded of the Hamilton fanboys who have their heads too far up his butt will deny the truth that he's long since been a diva and a whiner. But thanks for confirming my earlier assumption of which camp you fell into. Back to ignore you go! 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Karan

[Marc]

2 hours ago, Karan said:

 

Oh what's wrong, you didn't like the Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy comment? I guess you must not like hearing the truth either then...

 

No I actually don't look at it through the lens of resenting Mercedes/Hamilton's success for the simple fact that I've watched the sport for long enough now to have lived through the Ferrari/Schumacher and Red Bull/Vettel domination eras and what effect they had on the sport. But the difference here is that Hamilton walked into a team that was on the up and had success handed to him on a platter, and Wolff did everything in his power to keep the rules the same to benefit them and severely compromise Ferrari/Renault/Honda ability to develop their power units. What Mercedes/Wolff have done behind the scenes has single handedly driven viewership/ratings, turned away fans and nearly ruined the sport. Yet Hamilton and Wolff likes to go on the air and claim how much he loves competition and purity of the sport. That's laughable. Their actions have never correlated with their words but yet they keep spewing that angle because much of the media and their fanboys, like the one we have here, will lap it right up...

 

I thought the two examples were pretty self-explanatory but I guess I do have to explain this again as I realize it might be difficult for a Mercedes/Hamilton to be able to recognize the difference. So let's go over this slowly. Wheatley arguing with Masi about what penalty to give Verstappen over an illegal pass has absolutely nothing to do with safe control of a race unlike Wolff literally telling Masi to disregard the marshall's safety and not to put out a safety car as it would negatively affect Hamilton's race. 

 

Verstappen literally assaulted another driver in a paddock? Exaggeration at it's best, but yea okay. I'm not sure if you watched F1 in the 80s and early 90s if you think that's assault. Also you may want to Google/YouTube the number of examples of Hamilton sulking on the podium when things didn't go his way, trust me it won't take you long to find multiple instances. At the end of the day, everyone knows Verstappen is entitled and has a huge ago, but only the most deluded of the Hamilton fanboys who have their heads too far up his butt will deny the truth that he's long since been a diva and a whiner. But thanks for confirming my earlier assumption of which camp you fell into. Back to ignore you go! 

No I don’t like the fanboy comment because its a cheap way of attempting to diminish someone’s point of view, and I assume you’re capable of adult conversation.  The fact you’re doubling down on it, just makes me think less of you, and I don’t want to do that (see my last paragraph).  I’m extremely proud to be a Lewis Hamilton fan.  I was always a McLaren fan since my childhood, watching James Hunt with my Grandad is an earliest memory, and a driver like Hamilton coming to that team was a dream come true, and the results have been very satisfying.  And I have equal enthusiasm for George and Lando.  
 

Saying you don’t resent Hamilton’s success and then describing your resentment and why, is kind of amusing to honest. “He walked into a team that was on the up”… he was recruited to join Mercedes, after they heard he was genuinely frustrated with McLaren, and took a chance that Mercedes were going to deliver on their promises.  There were no guarantees that Mercedes had it right.  None.  And in return, he has delivered.  Without compromise.  But only resentment from detractors.  
 

Toto Wolff was in favor of, what would we call it, locked in engine homologation rules back then for exactly the same reasons as Red Bull are in favor of another engine freeze now.  Mercedes had to follow the same rules.  So hypocritical.  But that’s the mentality of the average Mercedes hater.  Toto Wolff has had 1 philosophy and goal in Formula 1.  To make the team he manages profitable and still win.  He has supported policies with a similar goal across the spectrum of Formula 1.  And it gets into a much much deeper conversation that has to be taken back to why these large manufacturers even want to be a part of Formula 1.  And if we carry on that conversation, it only leads to

one end.  Take out all the motivation for large manufacturers, and what do you end up with?  Maybe something better?  I really don’t know, but I don’t think we’re going to find out unless the whole thing collapses.  
 

I didn’t mention it because it’s beyond ridiculous, but Wheatley literally told Masi what he should do at the end of Abu Dhabi, and he did it.  No matter how much it contravened the rules and regs.  Blinkered much?  And Wheatley didn’t have to argue with anyone in SA.  He was given options, and with that politely disagreed, and said he’d get back to Masi.  And then when he did come back to him, he came back with conditions, to which Masi capitulated.  Options, to which he had conditions. 
 

Like I said, cheering for James Hunt got me interested in F1, but I was a child when he was assaulting marshall’s and I wasn’t aware of that behavior.  Do I think Verstappen confronting Esteban and pushing him around was a big deal?  No. (Although with his family issues he may want to get that under control).  Once again, just pointing out the hypocrisy.  I never denied that Hamilton complains about tires, or drivers, his position in a race, or even the damn weather, I never said Hamilton was a ray of sunshine after a loss, I’ve only ever wondered why there is a different standard of behavior that Hamilton must abide by in the eyes of some motor racing fans, that they don’t impose on other drivers.  They all complain down the radio, they all have ego’s, they’re all unhappy when races don’t go their way.  For some racers that is celebrated.  For others, the “fans” see it as a reason to pour out their naked resentment, and one hesitates too, but has every reason and excuse to call it hatred.  
 

and that’s why I dislike Red Bull’s Formula 1 marketing strategy.  From being the party team, scrappy underdogs of when they entered the sport, and no matter how enormous they’re resources, they’ve now cultivated an eternally oppressed mentality.  It’s always someone else’s fault.  It’s never on them to do better.  It’s so ingrained in you, that even when the opposition has lost, and humbly says they will try to be better, you see those words with nothing but cynicism and anger.  Red Bull have encouraged and propped up that increasing negativity.  We have ratings, but we have a new element and a football terrace mentality is growing roots.  A Formula 1 race was a place you could go and enjoy in a grandstand full of fans wearing different colours.  It would be very sad to see that change.  But it appears to only be a matter of time.  We can talk and politely disagree.  If you only like to be agreed with, and will only react to that disagreement with hostility, then there’s little point.  It’s up to you.  

[Karan]

Let's try to get this thread back on track guys especially with pre-season testing just a couple of days away...Alpine launch their new 2022 challenger. Looks like the lovechild of the Racing Point and their 2021 car. 

 

 

 

[Morphinity 2.0]

I'm just going to step in here. I'm glad we have spirited F1 conversation on this board, but let's be respectful to one another.

[Karan]

On 2/21/2022 at 1:15 AM, Marc said:

No I don’t like the fanboy comment because its a cheap way of attempting to diminish someone’s point of view, and I assume you’re capable of adult conversation.  The fact you’re doubling down on it, just makes me think less of you, and I don’t want to do that (see my last paragraph).  I’m extremely proud to be a Lewis Hamilton fan.  I was always a McLaren fan since my childhood, watching James Hunt with my Grandad is an earliest memory, and a driver like Hamilton coming to that team was a dream come true, and the results have been very satisfying.  And I have equal enthusiasm for George and Lando.  
 

Saying you don’t resent Hamilton’s success and then describing your resentment and why, is kind of amusing to honest. “He walked into a team that was on the up”… he was recruited to join Mercedes, after they heard he was genuinely frustrated with McLaren, and took a chance that Mercedes were going to deliver on their promises.  There were no guarantees that Mercedes had it right.  None.  And in return, he has delivered.  Without compromise.  But only resentment from detractors.  
 

Toto Wolff was in favor of, what would we call it, locked in engine homologation rules back then for exactly the same reasons as Red Bull are in favor of another engine freeze now.  Mercedes had to follow the same rules.  So hypocritical.  But that’s the mentality of the average Mercedes hater.  Toto Wolff has had 1 philosophy and goal in Formula 1.  To make the team he manages profitable and still win.  He has supported policies with a similar goal across the spectrum of Formula 1.  And it gets into a much much deeper conversation that has to be taken back to why these large manufacturers even want to be a part of Formula 1.  And if we carry on that conversation, it only leads to

one end.  Take out all the motivation for large manufacturers, and what do you end up with?  Maybe something better?  I really don’t know, but I don’t think we’re going to find out unless the whole thing collapses.  
 

I didn’t mention it because it’s beyond ridiculous, but Wheatley literally told Masi what he should do at the end of Abu Dhabi, and he did it.  No matter how much it contravened the rules and regs.  Blinkered much?  And Wheatley didn’t have to argue with anyone in SA.  He was given options, and with that politely disagreed, and said he’d get back to Masi.  And then when he did come back to him, he came back with conditions, to which Masi capitulated.  Options, to which he had conditions. 
 

Like I said, cheering for James Hunt got me interested in F1, but I was a child when he was assaulting marshall’s and I wasn’t aware of that behavior.  Do I think Verstappen confronting Esteban and pushing him around was a big deal?  No. (Although with his family issues he may want to get that under control).  Once again, just pointing out the hypocrisy.  I never denied that Hamilton complains about tires, or drivers, his position in a race, or even the damn weather, I never said Hamilton was a ray of sunshine after a loss, I’ve only ever wondered why there is a different standard of behavior that Hamilton must abide by in the eyes of some motor racing fans, that they don’t impose on other drivers.  They all complain down the radio, they all have ego’s, they’re all unhappy when races don’t go their way.  For some racers that is celebrated.  For others, the “fans” see it as a reason to pour out their naked resentment, and one hesitates too, but has every reason and excuse to call it hatred.  
 

and that’s why I dislike Red Bull’s Formula 1 marketing strategy.  From being the party team, scrappy underdogs of when they entered the sport, and no matter how enormous they’re resources, they’ve now cultivated an eternally oppressed mentality.  It’s always someone else’s fault.  It’s never on them to do better.  It’s so ingrained in you, that even when the opposition has lost, and humbly says they will try to be better, you see those words with nothing but cynicism and anger.  Red Bull have encouraged and propped up that increasing negativity.  We have ratings, but we have a new element and a football terrace mentality is growing roots.  A Formula 1 race was a place you could go and enjoy in a grandstand full of fans wearing different colours.  It would be very sad to see that change.  But it appears to only be a matter of time.  We can talk and politely disagree.  If you only like to be agreed with, and will only react to that disagreement with hostility, then there’s little point.  It’s up to you.  

 

Okay Marc. I totally get that fanboy is an insulting title, but I gave you benefit of doubt in the beginning, expecting you to be able to debate F1 in an unbiased manner like the rest of the guys here. I even agreed with you on a few points, disagreed on others. But when it became pretty evident (and now even admitted by yourself), that you're so biased towards Hamilton and tend to blindly disagree with anything said against him, then I hate to say this but the fanboy title fits. And that's sadly no different than what you encounter so much of on social media nowadays with his #TeamLH posse. If you don't want to be labelled a fanboy, then my suggestion would be to take a step back, try to understand the reasoning behind opposing comments and acknowledge some of his more obvious flaws, rather than always putting him on a pedestal.

 

Again, try to take an unbiased approach and acknowledge obvious facts and you'll be taken more seriously. It is not resentment, but actual fact that he walked into a Mercedes team on the cusp of dominance. I'm not making this up. One that aced the turbo-hybrid engine formula, and then fought tooth and nail to prevent the rules from changing and prevented other teams from being able to catch them (didn't you say something earlier about building a better car and challenging Mercedes? Well it would be nice if Wolff didn't do his best to veto any engine rule changes). Anyway, all that put together left Hamilton with the single longest duration of dominance in F1. Did he take full advantage of that? Of course and I'm not faulting him for that. But the end result is that all he's really done is pad up his stats while other teams were simply never allowed to really get close. There's been so many examples of his wins where they were literally running at reduced engine capacity the entire race with tons of pace to spare. Sure there's been some spectacular wins he's pulled out due to his skills, but much of them have been handed on a platter. Which is why I largely regard him as a paper champion and not on the same level of people like Schumacher who literally had to pull a team in complete shambles to reach a respectable level. But I don't want to make this into a Schumacher vs. Hamilton debate, that's a topic for another day.

 

I think you're vastly trivializing what Wolff was in favor for and I'm sure you know it being a long term engine F1. I'm sure you're well aware of all the underhanded things he did behind the scenes to veto any changes to the engine formula to maintain Mercedes stronghold and prevent any teams from coming close. That's not really in the spirit of competition and for someone who values good solid competition so much, he sure did go out of his way to ensure his rivals never had the ability to even get close to Mercedes. Which is why his statements should be taken with a grain of salt. His actions have rarely been backed up by his words. But like I suggested above, if you tried to take off the Mercedes blinders and realize that for all their mighty success, they've used their growing clout in F1 to do some pretty underhanded things. 

 

Again, I get that you're upset your boy Hamilton got screwed out of a title, and I would be too if I were a fan of him, he didn't put a foot wrong, but why are you ignoring the original point that Wheatley debating with Masi on where to position Verstappen on the restart after an illegal pass in Saudi Arabia is even on the same planet as Wolff telling Masi to not put out the safety car as it would jeopardize Hamilton's race, directly putting marshall's safety at risk? Like, the two scenarios aren't even remotely close. I guess the one thing that will appease the butthurt Mercedes/Hamilton fanboys is that all their kicking and screaming at least managed to get Masi out of his job, not to mention likely being a condition for Mercedes to drop their investigation against the FIA. And like I said last week, all the videos showing Masi making a decision right after Wheatley/Horner's comments on the radio to get the lapped cars out of the way, is an extremely narrow focused version of the events. I'm not saying Masi's decision was the right one by any means, but an unbiased F1 fan would realize that Masi was seated in a control room with other FIA officials and tons of monitors/data, and not making this decision in isolation or certainly not upon advice from Wheatley. So hopefully the blinkers come off and you're able to look at the wider end of the spectrum rather than just what all the other #TeamLH fanbase is saying on social media because it's the easy route for them to dismiss that fact and say oh Masi only acted after the radio message from Wheatley.

 

Oh come on man, no matter how you slice is, Verstappen giving Ocon a gentle shove is not assault. You've obviously seen F1 in the 80s and ought to know what real assault between drivers look like. So I'm not going to entertain that train of thought anymore, or hypocrisy comments, because you're quite obviously exaggerating just for dramatic effect. I already acknowledged your point that Verstappen can come across as really self-entitled and overly defensive when other drivers race him hard. But for all his antics, I will say that Verstappen is at least real and doesn't sugarcoat things in the media like Hamilton does routinely. It's long since been established in the wider F1 community that he's been bit of a diva. I remember even as far back to his McLaren days he joked in a post-race scrum about being penalized because he was black? Like really, who says that? Then the running gag of his whining about his tires being shot, only to set the fastest lap. The multitude of occasions on the podium where he sulked because he felt he got screwed in the race. But what really underlines his diva side for me are his official statements or social media after an incident. He'll do his best to come off as self righteous in them and then later (usually in team radio) make the total opposite statement. It's like man, if you think X driver blows, then just say so. No need to sugar coat it and come across as a saint, because we all know you ain't. So like I suggested above, it would serve you well to take off the Hamilton blinkers and look at both sides of a coin and you'll realize that for all his success on track, all the diva/whiner comments about him (not just me, but a large portion of the F1 community) are actually coming from a real place, rather than  resentment. Quickly dismissing it as resentment just makes you come across as someone on their high horse and refusing to take the time to understand why so many people are making such comments about him. Where there's smoke, there's fire...

 

So you hate Red Bull because you're suggesting they have an eternally victim mentality? Never on them to do better? Always someone else's fault? Come on man, you're better than that, don't resort to blatant exaggeration and painting them under one brush because it's inaccurate. I hate to say it, but as a neutral fan, that really is your Mercedes blinders hatred coming through because your opinion isn't that original and I see it a lot in the Mercedes/Hamilton Twitter army. Do Red Bull complain about other teams and in some cases push that envelope to find fault with others? Sure they do, but then again so have most teams in their position of being in a championship fight. Renault/Ferrari did it numerous times in their battles in the mid-2000s. McLaren did it numerous times in their battles against Ferrari in the late 90s. But for all those instances they've also gone out and admitted numerous more times where they screwed up or simply weren't good enough to challenge Mercedes. Red Bull have a pretty savvy group of people working for them and fair play for them in trying to squeeze out every possible advantage in the competitive world of F1. Frankly as a neutral, it's nice to see that they're finally at the same level as Mercedes, despite Wolff's best efforts to hold them back, and that's only good for the sport and us fans. 

 

Again like I said before, happy to continue debating with you like before, but it would serve you well to take off the Mercedes/Hamilton blinders and try to acknowledge some of their more obvious and well known flaws, rather than coming into this thread with your holier than thou approach and putting them on a perfect pedestal and dismissing opposing comments are hatred for them. When people make such comments, it usually comes from a valid place. Try to understand where they're coming from instead of being instantly dismissive of it, and maybe then you'll be afforded the same level of respect. If not, then there's little point in debating further and we'll just agree to disagree. It's up to you. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Karan

[Marc]

1 hour ago, Karan said:

 

Okay Marc. I totally get that fanboy is an insulting title, but I gave you benefit of doubt in the beginning, expecting you to be able to debate F1 in an unbiased manner like the rest of the guys here. I even agreed with you on a few points, disagreed on others. But when it became pretty evident (and now even admitted by yourself), that you're so biased towards Hamilton and tend to blindly disagree with anything said against him, then I hate to say this but the fanboy title fits. And that's sadly no different than what you encounter so much of on social media nowadays with his #TeamLH posse. If you don't want to be labelled a fanboy, then my suggestion would be to take a step back, try to understand the reasoning behind opposing comments and acknowledge some of his more obvious flaws, rather than always putting him on a pedestal.

 

Again, try to take an unbiased approach and acknowledge obvious facts and you'll be taken more seriously. It is not resentment, but actual fact that he walked into a Mercedes team on the cusp of dominance. I'm not making this up. One that aced the turbo-hybrid engine formula, and then fought tooth and nail to prevent the rules from changing and prevented other teams from being able to catch them (didn't you say something earlier about building a better car and challenging Mercedes? Well it would be nice if Wolff didn't do his best to veto any engine rule changes). Anyway, all that put together left Hamilton with the single longest duration of dominance in F1. Did he take full advantage of that? Of course and I'm not faulting him for that. But the end result is that all he's really done is pad up his stats while other teams were simply never allowed to really get close. There's been so many examples of his wins where they were literally running at reduced engine capacity the entire race with tons of pace to spare. Sure there's been some spectacular wins he's pulled out due to his skills, but much of them have been handed on a platter. Which is why I largely regard him as a paper champion and not on the same level of people like Schumacher who literally had to pull a team in complete shambles to reach a respectable level. But I don't want to make this into a Schumacher vs. Hamilton debate, that's a topic for another day.

 

I think you're vastly trivializing what Wolff was in favor for and I'm sure you know it being a long term engine F1. I'm sure you're well aware of all the underhanded things he did behind the scenes to veto any changes to the engine formula to maintain Mercedes stronghold and prevent any teams from coming close. That's not really in the spirit of competition and for someone who values good solid competition so much, he sure did go out of his way to ensure his rivals never had the ability to even get close to Mercedes. Which is why his statements should be taken with a grain of salt. His actions have rarely been backed up by his words. But like I suggested above, if you tried to take off the Mercedes blinders and realize that for all their mighty success, they've used their growing clout in F1 to do some pretty underhanded things. 

 

Again, I get that you're upset your boy Hamilton got screwed out of a title, and I would be too if I were a fan of him, he didn't put a foot wrong, but why are you ignoring the original point that Wheatley debating with Masi on where to position Verstappen on the restart after an illegal pass in Saudi Arabia is even on the same planet as Wolff telling Masi to not put out the safety car as it would jeopardize Hamilton's race, directly putting marshall's safety at risk? Like, the two scenarios aren't even remotely close. I guess the one thing that will appease the butthurt Mercedes/Hamilton fanboys is that all their kicking and screaming at least managed to get Masi out of his job, not to mention likely being a condition for Mercedes to drop their investigation against the FIA. And like I said last week, all the videos showing Masi making a decision right after Wheatley/Horner's comments on the radio to get the lapped cars out of the way, is an extremely narrow focused version of the events. I'm not saying Masi's decision was the right one by any means, but an unbiased F1 fan would realize that Masi was seated in a control room with other FIA officials and tons of monitors/data, and not making this decision in isolation or certainly not upon advice from Wheatley. So hopefully the blinkers come off and you're able to look at the wider end of the spectrum rather than just what all the other #TeamLH fanbase is saying on social media because it's the easy route for them to dismiss that fact and say oh Masi only acted after the radio message from Wheatley.

 

Oh come on man, no matter how you slice is, Verstappen giving Ocon a gentle shove is not assault. You've obviously seen F1 in the 80s and ought to know what real assault between drivers look like. So I'm not going to entertain that train of thought anymore, or hypocrisy comments, because you're quite obviously exaggerating just for dramatic effect. I already acknowledged your point that Verstappen can come across as really self-entitled and overly defensive when other drivers race him hard. But for all his antics, I will say that Verstappen is at least real and doesn't sugarcoat things in the media like Hamilton does routinely. It's long since been established in the wider F1 community that he's been bit of a diva. I remember even as far back to his McLaren days he joked in a post-race scrum about being penalized because he was black? Like really, who says that? Then the running gag of his whining about his tires being shot, only to set the fastest lap. The multitude of occasions on the podium where he sulked because he felt he got screwed in the race. But what really underlines his diva side for me are his official statements or social media after an incident. He'll do his best to come off as self righteous in them and then later (usually in team radio) make the total opposite statement. It's like man, if you think X driver blows, then just say so. No need to sugar coat it and come across as a saint, because we all know you ain't. So like I suggested above, it would serve you well to take off the Hamilton blinkers and look at both sides of a coin and you'll realize that for all his success on track, all the diva/whiner comments about him (not just me, but a large portion of the F1 community) are actually coming from a real place, rather than  resentment. Quickly dismissing it as resentment just makes you come across as someone on their high horse and refusing to take the time to understand why so many people are making such comments about him. Where there's smoke, there's fire...

 

So you hate Red Bull because you're suggesting they have an eternally victim mentality? Never on them to do better? Always someone else's fault? Come on man, you're better than that, don't resort to blatant exaggeration and painting them under one brush because it's inaccurate. I hate to say it, but as a neutral fan, that really is your Mercedes blinders hatred coming through because your opinion isn't that original and I see it a lot in the Mercedes/Hamilton Twitter army. Do Red Bull complain about other teams and in some cases push that envelope to find fault with others? Sure they do, but then again so have most teams in their position of being in a championship fight. Renault/Ferrari did it numerous times in their battles in the mid-2000s. McLaren did it numerous times in their battles against Ferrari in the late 90s. But for all those instances they've also gone out and admitted numerous more times where they screwed up or simply weren't good enough to challenge Mercedes. Red Bull have a pretty savvy group of people working for them and fair play for them in trying to squeeze out every possible advantage in the competitive world of F1. Frankly as a neutral, it's nice to see that they're finally at the same level as Mercedes, despite Wolff's best efforts to hold them back, and that's only good for the sport and us fans. 

 

Again like I said before, happy to continue debating with you like before, but it would serve you well to take off the Mercedes/Hamilton blinders and try to acknowledge some of their more obvious and well known flaws, rather than coming into this thread with your holier than thou approach and putting them on a perfect pedestal and dismissing opposing comments are hatred for them. When people make such comments, it usually comes from a valid place. Try to understand where they're coming from instead of being instantly dismissive of it, and maybe then you'll be afforded the same level of respect. If not, then there's little point in debating further and we'll just agree to disagree. It's up to you. 

Okay, so that was a somewhat passive, aggressive post.  A lot of it contingent on me changing things about my opinions, my expression of them, and my acceptance of yours, even if I don’t agree.  I mean what does one say to someone who essentially says, don’t say what you think, listen to me, and then I’ll afford you some respect?  

 

I didn’t say or admit I was biased, I said I was a fan.  So we’re questioning on a particular hockey teams fansite whether being a fan of a team is a good or a bad thing???  And me having a preference for British drivers, doesn’t make me less of a fan of any of the others.  And I’m not “blindly disagreeing with anything said about Hamilton”, anymore than your blindly hating on anything said in praise of Hamilton.  You just don’t know me well enough to make that conclusion.  
 

Sure, Hamilton was signed by Mercedes in September 2012, he won his first Championship with them at the end of 2014.  As far as I’m aware, Lewis Hamilton does not have a crystal ball.  If you can tell me who is on the “cusp of dominance” days before pre-testing begins this year, maybe we can make some money???? I’m not trying to sound like a smart ass, but you ask me to acknowledge “obvious facts”, then you throw something out there like this, which is entirely based on fantasy.  Sure, we can look back and say he made the smartest and luckiest move he could have ever made, but it was a choice, a choice that was strongly questioned by some, and he made it.  
 

The Masi thing has been absurd from the beginning.  I’m not acknowledging one event over the other at all.  I think Masi was extremely inconsistent, and was a bad race director.  I don’t blame him for any one incident, including Abu Dhabi.  I think the FIA have been an absent landlord when it comes to refereeing the sport.  It’s been severely lacking resources for way way too long.  I’m not even going to divulge what I believe happened in Abu Dhabi.  But my spectrum of thought is extremely wide on the subject.  And it has nothing to do with Masi, and nothing to do with Red Bull.  And if you go back a few posts, I stated this on hearing that Masi was out.  I do believe however that there was no way that Hamilton was ever going to enter a race briefing chaired by Masi again.  And that was his position.  He had no faith in him, because no matter what was influencing his decision, he should have done the right thing, and he didn’t.  And Lewis Hamilton has clout.  So that’s that.  
 

I already said that Verstappen pushing Ocon around was no big deal.  Not sure why you’re ignoring that.  
Who says “because I’m black?”  Well it’s usually black people that say that.  Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong.  He was (I’m sure) most definitely wrong.  How long you gonna hold on to it?  
 

Your views on Hamilton’s personality don’t really concern me.  If you don’t like him, that’s fine. You want to see all his quotes negatively, it doesn’t bother me.  We could apply that thought process to all of them, and come to the same conclusions.  I just don’t.  I don’t dislike any single driver.  I see Hamilton as a human being with obvious flaws.  He doesn’t really have much of a personality, his sense of humor is pretty lame.  What I like about him is my business.  And what I said previously is that the only thing I object to, is him being held to a different standard for the things he says, and the way he acts.  On the radio or elsewhere.  And seeing as you keep bringing up social media, I’m sure you’re aware that those differing standards are rife on social media.  It’s a very toxic situation.  And to be honest, your criticisms have the same type of flavor.  So if you’re going to lump me in with negative groups, give me a reason why I shouldn’t do the same?  Because I haven’t.  The fact is, I don’t know you, so I won’t cast you that way, and you don’t know Lewis Hamilton, so your perceptions of his behavior are exactly that.  And only that.  When some of the people in and around the paddock write their memoirs, maybe we’ll talk again about it .   My Uncle and Aunt live in Milton Keynes and are neighbors with a Red Bull mechanic.  My Uncle can’t stand Hamilton.  But the mechanic told my Uncle that the thing with Hamilton is that nobody really knows him.  He’s very quiet.  His circle at the track is really small, so I guess that can be construed negatively.  I really don’t know, or care really.  Having a good idea of where he comes from, I admire that he has done so well, and I admire his father especially.  And his mother for going along with it.  
 

I didn’t say I hate Red Bull.  I said I dislike their marketing.  Being as aware as you are of social media, and understanding that F1’s biggest growth in terms of fan activity is online, it is easy to conclude that the endless toxic negativity, (now admitted) lies regarding cheating, is working.  And maybe that’s another debate, about the toxicity of online activity in general.  Look at us FGS.  But whatever the venue or context of the debate, it’s easy to see that negativity is driving a lot of that growing fan content.  Growth is good.  Negative growth is bad.  I don’t want to see a football terrace mentality become the majority fanbase of Formula 1.  Unlikely to happen in the United States or Asia.  But Europe?  What I will say about that in their defense is that it may be a case of “they know not what they do”.  That could apply to all the teams.  But especially Red Bull, Mercedes, and to a degree, Ferrari.  I glanced at a Ferrari fan site today because I was interested in a story, and I couldn’t believe the amount of baseless negativity coming from it.  That doesn’t have to come between us.  That’s just my observation.  If you want to see me in a negative light because I’m not enthusiastic about the negative fan content around the big teams, then that’s up to you.  Im not going to change my opinion on that subject.  And I only just landed on Twitter and purposefully have not subscribed to anything sports related.  
 

Anyway, I don’t really know how to end this post. As far as I see it we’re just passengers on the same bus having a conversation.  We obviously have disagreements about some of this but that has no baring on whether the new Alpine is pretty or not.  We can agree on that, can’t we .   So if you wanna talk, talk.  

[Marc]

16 hours ago, Karan said:

Let's try to get this thread back on track guys especially with pre-season testing just a couple of days away...Alpine launch their new 2022 challenger. Looks like the lovechild of the Racing Point and their 2021 car. 

 

 

 

Actually that might be my favorite so far.  By a big margin.  

[Karan]

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

Okay, so that was a somewhat passive, aggressive post.  A lot of it contingent on me changing things about my opinions, my expression of them, and my acceptance of yours, even if I don’t agree.  I mean what does one say to someone who essentially says, don’t say what you think, listen to me, and then I’ll afford you some respect?  

 

I didn’t say or admit I was biased, I said I was a fan.  So we’re questioning on a particular hockey teams fansite whether being a fan of a team is a good or a bad thing???  And me having a preference for British drivers, doesn’t make me less of a fan of any of the others.  And I’m not “blindly disagreeing with anything said about Hamilton”, anymore than your blindly hating on anything said in praise of Hamilton.  You just don’t know me well enough to make that conclusion.  
 

Sure, Hamilton was signed by Mercedes in September 2012, he won his first Championship with them at the end of 2014.  As far as I’m aware, Lewis Hamilton does not have a crystal ball.  If you can tell me who is on the “cusp of dominance” days before pre-testing begins this year, maybe we can make some money???? I’m not trying to sound like a smart ass, but you ask me to acknowledge “obvious facts”, then you throw something out there like this, which is entirely based on fantasy.  Sure, we can look back and say he made the smartest and luckiest move he could have ever made, but it was a choice, a choice that was strongly questioned by some, and he made it.  
 

The Masi thing has been absurd from the beginning.  I’m not acknowledging one event over the other at all.  I think Masi was extremely inconsistent, and was a bad race director.  I don’t blame him for any one incident, including Abu Dhabi.  I think the FIA have been an absent landlord when it comes to refereeing the sport.  It’s been severely lacking resources for way way too long.  I’m not even going to divulge what I believe happened in Abu Dhabi.  But my spectrum of thought is extremely wide on the subject.  And it has nothing to do with Masi, and nothing to do with Red Bull.  And if you go back a few posts, I stated this on hearing that Masi was out.  I do believe however that there was no way that Hamilton was ever going to enter a race briefing chaired by Masi again.  And that was his position.  He had no faith in him, because no matter what was influencing his decision, he should have done the right thing, and he didn’t.  And Lewis Hamilton has clout.  So that’s that.  
 

I already said that Verstappen pushing Ocon around was no big deal.  Not sure why you’re ignoring that.  
Who says “because I’m black?”  Well it’s usually black people that say that.  Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong.  He was (I’m sure) most definitely wrong.  How long you gonna hold on to it?  
 

Your views on Hamilton’s personality don’t really concern me.  If you don’t like him, that’s fine. You want to see all his quotes negatively, it doesn’t bother me.  We could apply that thought process to all of them, and come to the same conclusions.  I just don’t.  I don’t dislike any single driver.  I see Hamilton as a human being with obvious flaws.  He doesn’t really have much of a personality, his sense of humor is pretty lame.  What I like about him is my business.  And what I said previously is that the only thing I object to, is him being held to a different standard for the things he says, and the way he acts.  On the radio or elsewhere.  And seeing as you keep bringing up social media, I’m sure you’re aware that those differing standards are rife on social media.  It’s a very toxic situation.  And to be honest, your criticisms have the same type of flavor.  So if you’re going to lump me in with negative groups, give me a reason why I shouldn’t do the same?  Because I haven’t.  The fact is, I don’t know you, so I won’t cast you that way, and you don’t know Lewis Hamilton, so your perceptions of his behavior are exactly that.  And only that.  When some of the people in and around the paddock write their memoirs, maybe we’ll talk again about it .   My Uncle and Aunt live in Milton Keynes and are neighbors with a Red Bull mechanic.  My Uncle can’t stand Hamilton.  But the mechanic told my Uncle that the thing with Hamilton is that nobody really knows him.  He’s very quiet.  His circle at the track is really small, so I guess that can be construed negatively.  I really don’t know, or care really.  Having a good idea of where he comes from, I admire that he has done so well, and I admire his father especially.  And his mother for going along with it.  
 

I didn’t say I hate Red Bull.  I said I dislike their marketing.  Being as aware as you are of social media, and understanding that F1’s biggest growth in terms of fan activity is online, it is easy to conclude that the endless toxic negativity, (now admitted) lies regarding cheating, is working.  And maybe that’s another debate, about the toxicity of online activity in general.  Look at us FGS.  But whatever the venue or context of the debate, it’s easy to see that negativity is driving a lot of that growing fan content.  Growth is good.  Negative growth is bad.  I don’t want to see a football terrace mentality become the majority fanbase of Formula 1.  Unlikely to happen in the United States or Asia.  But Europe?  What I will say about that in their defense is that it may be a case of “they know not what they do”.  That could apply to all the teams.  But especially Red Bull, Mercedes, and to a degree, Ferrari.  I glanced at a Ferrari fan site today because I was interested in a story, and I couldn’t believe the amount of baseless negativity coming from it.  That doesn’t have to come between us.  That’s just my observation.  If you want to see me in a negative light because I’m not enthusiastic about the negative fan content around the big teams, then that’s up to you.  Im not going to change my opinion on that subject.  And I only just landed on Twitter and purposefully have not subscribed to anything sports related.  
 

Anyway, I don’t really know how to end this post. As far as I see it we’re just passengers on the same bus having a conversation.  We obviously have disagreements about some of this but that has no baring on whether the new Alpine is pretty or not.  We can agree on that, can’t we .   So if you wanna talk, talk.  

 

You can take it as passive aggressive if you want, but that was not my intention. I'm just going based on what you put out there. Nor do I expect you to change your opinion or fanship. I'm just pointing out that your approach comes across as holier than thou where you walk into this thread only talking up Mercedes/Hamilton like they're Gods and not acknowledging any of their obvious shortfalls that others point out and instead label that as being a hater. Like I said, if you're able to take a step back, and demonstrate that you're able to unbiased then sure you might be extended the same respect as the others in here. Until then, you just come across as being another Mercedes/Hamilton fanboy. If you put out a certain approach, don't be surprised if it solicits such a response from others.

 

You didn't need to say that you're biased. I'm a fan of plenty of teams/drivers, but I've no issues with having an unbiased debate with other fans in forums by acknowledging their faults. The approach you've taken in this thread so far has been that of blind bias I'm sorry to say. You can live in denial all you want and blame others for being "blind haters", but like I said it's what you're putting out there man. 

 

I've no idea what you're talking about. This has nothing to do with a crystal ball or predicting the future. No one is talking about why he made the decision to join Mercedes when he did. And in hindsight, kudos to him for making the jump when he did. The timing worked out perfectly. But I'm referring to the fact that he joined Mercedes when they were on the cusp of dominance and he benefitted massively from that. He didn't join a team in doldrums like Schumacher did with Ferrari in 1996 and had to suffer/toil for years before their first championship. So it's definitely arguable that Hamilton's had success handed to him on a platter and simply padded his stats in that period with little competition. Coasting around to race wins with an engine turned down most of it the time, I don't put much stock into that in terms of rating his overall stats.

 

I think your anger over what happened in Abu Dhabi is tainting your opinion of Masi. It's easy for butthurt fans to overlook everything he's done since being thrust into the limelight after Whiting's untimely death. If you look at his overall body of work I think he has done a solid job. Has he made some poor execution decisions in the heat of the moment? Sure. But if you don't expect him to do that, then you're expecting perfection and that's not going to happen with anyone. Again, let the bias go, it'll serve you well in the future. I'm glad though that you're finally acknowledging Hamilton has clout and likely used that clout, with Wolff's help, behind the scenes to facilitate this outcome. I don't disagree about Masi being replaced. They had to do that purely to get rid of the negative PR and public outcry that would happen if he continued in that post. But I do maintain that Masi was made the scapegoat of a lot of failing's in the FIA's procedures. 

 

Okay well I'm not sure then why you even felt the need to state Verstappen "assaulted" another driver if it was no big deal. If that's the case, then it's a moot point.

 

As for Hamilton's comments in I believe Monaco 2011 post-race, well he said it himself and now it's in print record, so it's not a case of me holding on to it. But more like me referencing a recorded example of him being unnecessarily a diva. I could bring up plenty of more recent examples if you prefer, but I think even through your strong bias, you know what I'm talking about, even if you don't want to publicly acknowledge it. And like I said, it's not a unique opinion. A large portion of the F1 community shares the same view. And please don't use the excuse that I don't know Hamilton. I don't need to know Hamilton to know that he's a diva/whiner. Why? Because I'm going purely based on what what's publicly put out himself i.e. his comments in press interviews and then contradictory comments in team radio or non-press settings. I'm not filling the blanks with my imagination here. It just comes across as being so fake when he later contradicts himself. In any case, I don't see what's the harm in admitting that he can be a diva sometimes and move on? It's part of his personality and it is what it is. It doesn't undermine his success or driving ability. So I'm not sure why you're choosing this hill to die on. But whatever, I guess you can't argue with the #TeamLH fans, because in his eyes he'll always be the eternal Prince and can do no wrong, meh. 

 

Red Bull admitted lies about cheating? Care to elaborate what you're referring to here? And now you're criticizing Red Bull's marketing by blaming it on toxic negativity? Maybe I'm missing something here but I follow a lot of Red Bull's social channels (not just their motorsport division) and I'm honestly unsure of  what you're getting so bent out of shape about. Like I said earlier, they have done more to promote motorsport (not just F1, but various other categories and feeder series) and have done more bringing up young drivers, funding various series, expanded the audience to a wider reach and in general helped with the sport's image. Have they been embroiled in some controversial decisions in F1? Sure they have, but like I said before, that comes down to trying to squeeze out every advantage in a cutthroat sport. I get that Red Bull's left a bitter taste in your mouth after what happened to your boy Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, but man this really sounds like a stretch and hating on them for no legitimate reason. But to each their own I guess. Can't love them all. 

 

At the end of the day I just want to use this thread to have an open, frank and neutral manner with other fans of the sport where we can all just enjoy the season and debate the action of  what goes on, without fan-ship or bias getting into it. As I said, God only knows that Twitter/Instagram/YouTube is full of it since Abu Dhabi with Verstappen and Hamilton fans going at each other's throats and frankly that's the only toxic negativity in the sport right now. We really don't need that here. If you disagree with my views, or think I'm a "blind hater" or whatever you want to call it, fine by me. Let's just do our best to check our biases at the door (the same applies for me) and it'll be a much more enjoyable discussion for everyone.