Motorsports Formula 1 Discussion

[4EverRangerFrank]

[4EverRangerFrank]

Remembering Ayrton Senna’s father, Milton da Silva, who died yesterday, aged 94, who gave his 3-year-old son (pic) a pedal car, & who then went on to see him become one of the very greatest #F1 drivers of all time. #RIPMilton

[Karan]

Oh wow thanks for sharing. I had no idea about that. I just remember him from the 'Senna' movie and how supportive he was of Ayrton and just how shattered he looked at his funeral. RIP.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Karan

[4EverRangerFrank]

Man that was some movie. Saw it with my son in a theater near Canal Street when it came out. Just about everyone there was a F1 fan talking in line before the movie. When it was over, we shuffled out in sad silence. RIP Ayrton

[Morphinity 2.0]

One race left, it all comes down to this. Pretty crazy last few races! Tons of drama.

[NY Chief]

2 hours ago, Morphinity said:

One race left, it all comes down to this. Pretty crazy last few races! Tons of drama.

Does Ham EVER have any BAD luck???????????

[Morphinity 2.0]

I mean pitting under a safety car only to have them red flag the race 3 laps later was pretty bad luck. 

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

Controversy between lewis and max there 

 

I think max meant to push him off and lewis didn’t do anything wrong there though. Exciting race so far

[Morphinity 2.0]

6 hours ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

Controversy between lewis and max there 

 

I think max meant to push him off and lewis didn’t do anything wrong there though. Exciting race so far

I think Max knew exactly what he was doing and the stewards had it 90% right. Only thing is Lewis did not give back the advantage. It didn't really matter though because the pace of the Mercedes was just too much, Horner said as much in his interview during the race. 

But what a clusterfuck at the end. Congrats to Max, a very deserving champion, but I'm gutted for Lewis too. Lewis got jobbed at the end through no fault of his own - and there's really no two ways around that. I genuinely have no rooting interest (well I even had money on Max to win!) and I just want to see good racing. We were robbed of that today in the last few laps. 

To me, there's really no defense for what the race director did. And to tell Toto "it's a motor race" is a giant slap in the face. There was no "motor race" at the end. Lewis was a sitting duck.

The move to only allow the cars between Max and Lewis to pass is indefensible. I know why the race director waited - to ensure the track was clear before lapped cars passed - but if you want to have the fairest one or two-lap shootout to decide the race, then red flag the race. I absolutely did not want the race to end under safety car, that would have been pathetic. But to do what he did in order to get one more racing lap was just so disappointing.

I guess we just all need to accept that F1 is now WWE with cars basically - which I'm fine with, but I think they should stop pretending like the "sport" is just that. 

 

[Karan]

Yeah I don't think Max intended to push Hamilton off track, but we've seen all year that he's a very uncompromising passer. He just puts his car into the gap and the other driver is forced to take evasive action. In this case, as pointed out, the only wrong thing Hamilton did was not giving back the advantage or the place, and the FIA missed penalizing him for it. Wouldn't have mattered as I was surprised how much faster their race pace was.

Of course Hamilton and Mercedes are going to feel royally screwed, but someone had to lose this championship. I agree that Race Control did a shoddy job today, but let's be honest they've been inconsistent all year. @Morphinity I agree with you that they should've red flagged the race to have the purist result at the end. But Race Control had already decided before the weekend that if there was an incident at Turn 14 that it would be cleared under safety car, so it's not like they went back on their word.

Secondly, the regulation doesn't say "all" lapped cars need to be released behind the safety car, it says "any". And it seems there's a fair amount of discretion left to the Race Director on how that's handled. Here's the official explanation from the stewards which I think will address why it was handled the way it is.

It was definitely controversial, but today Lady Luck went Verstappen's way after he was on the receiving end of a lot of bad luck this year, compared to Hamilton, it has to be said i.e. Imola, Baku, Silverstone, Hungary. This championship ought to have been wrapped up a long time ago.

Plus let's give credit where it's due. Mercedes had equal opportunity to pit Hamilton for fresh tires too but understandably they didn't want to risk losing track position. Red Bull gambled and risked pitting Verstappen under both safety cars, and today their risk paid off. Not to mention Verstappen seized the opportunity on the final lap right away. 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Karan

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

I’m new to F1 so forgive me for not understand rules but like, how the fuck is it that, in an enforced slowdown where there’s supposed to be no overtaking, is Ver Stappen allowed to close a 10 second gap out of nowhere like that. They held all the lapped cars until after Ver Stappen pits. And then just allow. We Stappen. To get that close before resuming the race? Seems so fishy to me 

 

Max owes Checo a ton for that one regardless

[Morphinity 2.0]

28 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

I’m new to F1 so forgive me for not understand rules but like, how the fuck is it that, in an enforced slowdown where there’s supposed to be no overtaking, is Ver Stappen allowed to close a 10 second gap out of nowhere like that. They held all the lapped cars until after Ver Stappen pits. And then just allow. We Stappen. To get that close before resuming the race? Seems so fishy to me 

 

Max owes Checo a ton for that one regardless

You're not allowed to overtake under the safety car, but you must close the gap to the car in front of you. I believe the maximum gap allowed is 10 car lengths? And, as you saw, lapped cars can overtake the leader to get their lap back when allowed to by the race director.

It's just the nature of the safety car. They want to get all the cars together in one slow, single-file line so that whatever work needs to be done on the track can be done safely.

[Morphinity 2.0]

2 hours ago, Karan said:

Yeah I don't think Max intended to push Hamilton off track, but we've seen all year that he's a very uncompromising passer. He just puts his car into the gap and the other driver is forced to take evasive action. In this case, as pointed out, the only wrong thing Hamilton did was not giving back the advantage or the place, and the FIA missed penalizing him for it. Wouldn't have mattered as I was surprised how much faster their race pace was.

Of course Hamilton and Mercedes are going to feel royally screwed, but someone had to lose this championship. I agree that Race Control did a shoddy job today, but let's be honest they've been inconsistent all year. @Morphinity I agree with you that they should've red flagged the race to have the purist result at the end. But Race Control had already decided before the weekend that if there was an incident at Turn 14 that it would be cleared under safety car, so it's not like they went back on their word.

Secondly, the regulation doesn't say "all" lapped cars need to be released behind the safety car, it says "any". And it seems there's a fair amount of discretion left to the Race Director on how that's handled. Here's the official explanation from the stewards which I think will address why it was handled the way it is.

It was definitely controversial, but today Lady Luck went Verstappen's way after he was on the receiving end of a lot of bad luck this year, compared to Hamilton, it has to be said i.e. Imola, Baku, Silverstone, Hungary. This championship ought to have been wrapped up a long time ago.

Plus let's give credit where it's due. Mercedes had equal opportunity to pit Hamilton for fresh tires too but understandably they didn't want to risk losing track position. Red Bull gambled and risked pitting Verstappen under both safety cars, and today their risk paid off. Not to mention Verstappen seized the opportunity on the final lap right away. 

 

I definitely hear all this, but it's such a cheap technicality - "'any' is not 'all.'" This is one of those spirit of the rule vs. letter of the rule things and, to me, it just doesn't seem like that's the spirit of the rule. 

Masi definitely exercised his discretion as race director, but I think it was poorly exercised. 

It's just a shitty way for the championship end, is all. That wasn't racing. Lewis had zero chance to win once Masi made his decision. 

--

And one more thing. I think Lewis is a total class act. I give him a lot of credit for being extremely gracious and understanding in his post-race interviews and on the podium. I know he gets a lot of hate (some of it warranted), but he's a class guy in my opinion. 

[Karan]

6 minutes ago, Morphinity said:

I definitely hear all this, but it's such a cheap technicality - "'any' is not 'all.'" This is one of those spirit of the rule vs. letter of the rule things and, to me, it just doesn't seem like that's the spirit of the rule. 

Masi definitely exercised his discretion as race director, but I think it was poorly exercised. 

It's just a shitty way for the championship end, is all. That wasn't racing. Lewis had zero chance to win once Masi made his decision. 

The point being that the rule unfortunately is not black and white. It leaves a lot of room for interpretation and it seems that discretion lies with the Race Director. And in today's case Masi decided to go with the partial approach in order to have an uninterrupted fight between Hamilton and Verstappen. There will definitely be a lot of questions into the decision making and I hope such an implementation doesn't happen again as it makes the end result feel fabricated. They definitely need to clean up the language in the rulebook. Masi would've been way better off red flagging the race, letting both drivers get fresh tires and have a 4 lap sprint race for the win. At least that would've been a pure and fair and square result, without giving an advantage to either team.

If the situation was flipped and Verstappen had a commanding lead suddenly reduced by the SC and then vulnerable to attack by Hamilton on the last lap, I'm sure half the world would still be furious. Someone unfortunately had to lose today and this weird situation cost one of the drivers the championship. It doesn't make the other driver any less worthy. In fact, putting aside today's race, I would say Verstappen was definitely the worthier driver to be champion when considering the entire season.

It was a painful way for Hamilton to lose but they were ahead of Verstappen when the SC came out and had every opportunity to pit Hamilton for new softs to give him a fighting chance at the end. And like Hamilton always like to point out: We win and lose together as a team. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Karan

[Karan]

8 minutes ago, Morphinity said:

I definitely hear all this, but it's such a cheap technicality - "'any' is not 'all.'" This is one of those spirit of the rule vs. letter of the rule things and, to me, it just doesn't seem like that's the spirit of the rule. 

Masi definitely exercised his discretion as race director, but I think it was poorly exercised. 

It's just a shitty way for the championship end, is all. That wasn't racing. Lewis had zero chance to win once Masi made his decision. 

--

And one more thing. I think Lewis is a total class act. I give him a lot of credit for being extremely gracious and understanding in his post-race interviews and on the podium. I know he gets a lot of hate (some of it warranted), but he's a class guy in my opinion. 

And yeah I have to admit Hamilton was very gracious after the race today. No abuse on the radio, no temper tantrums. He was understandably still in shock but at least he was humble.

Having said that let's not make him out into a sporting angel, because he's not. Even yesterday after qualifying he felt the need to take jabs at Verstappen (I'm grateful for being 2nd because at least I can see my rival in case he tries something) and he always does it with that fake smile of his. Like come on man you're not fooling anyone. Everyone knows he says one thing to the camera, but completely different on team radio.

 

 

[Karan]

Bit off-topic but Latifi's girlfriend, man...

[Morphinity 2.0]

17 minutes ago, Karan said:

And yeah I have to admit Hamilton was very gracious after the race today. No abuse on the radio, no temper tantrums. He was understandably still in shock but at least he was humble.

Having said that let's not make him out into a sporting angel, because he's not. Even yesterday after qualifying he felt the need to take jabs at Verstappen (I'm grateful for being 2nd because at least I can see my rival in case he tries something) and he always does it with that fake smile of his. Like come on man you're not fooling anyone. Everyone knows he says one thing to the camera, but completely different on team radio.

 

 

Right but that's just all part of the sport of it. Horner, Verstappen, and Hamilton all acknowledged they said things in the last few weeks that may have been out of character. But they're just down in the muck trying to claw out any possible advantage they can. I don't think Toto has spoken to the media yet - if he did, I missed it - but I'm sure he'd say the same. 

[Karan]

Oh for sure it's gotten very ugly between the competitors this year, but the thing about people like Verstappen and Horner is that they're pretty direct and make no bones about their insults. Whereas with Hamilton it's always trying to say it with a fake smile, then on the team radio he's dragging people through the mud. I remember back to this one incident in Monaco around 2010 or 2011 where in an interview after qualifying he remarked that he got penalized because maybe I'm black. Like come on man. Even after Saudi when he was questioned about the aggressive moves from Verstappen he was like oh I'm just grateful I was able to keep it clean and between the lines, others seem to follow their own rules. That passive aggressive style just comes across as fake because behind the scenes he's very likely slandering his competitors with zero regard. The dude has perfected the art of acting in front of the cameras. Maybe a career in entertainment after he hangs his gloves up isn't that farfetched after all. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Karan

[Karan]

20 minutes ago, Morphinity said:

Right but that's just all part of the sport of it. Horner, Verstappen, and Hamilton all acknowledged they said things in the last few weeks that may have been out of character. But they're just down in the muck trying to claw out any possible advantage they can. I don't think Toto has spoken to the media yet - if he did, I missed it - but I'm sure he'd say the same. 

No I don't think Toto has officially commented yet. Strangely enough all the Mercedes social medias are completely silent on the race result or congratulating Verstappen. This leads me to believe they're going to launch a legal appeal and don't want to concede the result in writing.

But don't get me started on Toto man. The guy is worse than Hamilton in that regard. He obviously has a lot of power and influence being the team principal and co-owner of the best team, but the guy is the biggest politician in the paddock. I have zero respect for the guy and you can't take anything he says at face value.

And take a look at this, I mean have you ever seen a team principal so blatantly trying to influence how a race is run? It's one thing to complain about how the rules are being implemented, but to try and tell the Race Director how to operate the safety car. I loved how Masi told him to GTFO by basically saying: Toto, it's a motor race.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Karan

[Morphinity 2.0]

Yeah they need to do something about principals basically lobbying for things. Pathetic.

Though I will say I didn't like his "It's a motor race response." The end of that wasn't a motor race. 

[NY Chief]

Pretty interesting take on an F1 car vs Indy...by Pato Oward

A top IndyCar driver got a chance to drive an F1 car, and his reaction showed just how 'mind-blowing' they are compared to all other race cars (msn.com)

 

[Morphinity 2.0]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:33 AM, NY Chief said:

Pretty interesting take on an F1 car vs Indy...by Pato Oward

A top IndyCar driver got a chance to drive an F1 car, and his reaction showed just how 'mind-blowing' they are compared to all other race cars (msn.com)

 

I believe it. Obviously this isn't remotely real life, but I've driven the Dallara DW12 and the Mercedes AMG F1 W12 in iRacing and the difference is pretty vast. It's almost impossible how much grip the F1 car has. Plus it's ridiculously quick.

I can't imagine what it's like in real life. My neck hurts just thinking about it. 

[4EverRangerFrank]

Amazing ending to what became a highly entertaining F1 season. Glad we saw the drivers get through it safely. ‘22 going to be lit!

[Karan]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:05 PM, Morphinity said:

I believe it. Obviously this isn't remotely real life, but I've driven the Dallara DW12 and the Mercedes AMG F1 W12 in iRacing and the difference is pretty vast. It's almost impossible how much grip the F1 car has. Plus it's ridiculously quick.

I can't imagine what it's like in real life. My neck hurts just thinking about it. 

The IndyCar is better in low speed corners and just has more raw mechanical grip, but the level of downforce in F1 cars is on a whole other level. Much of it coming from the areas we don't even see, the floor. But that's also the problem with the sport right now and I really hope the 2022 rule changes address it. But yeah it's just nuts as a normal human being to imagine what the sheer forces while driving an F1 car flat out through a high speed corner would feel like.

[4EverRangerFrank]

11 hours ago, Karan said:

 But yeah it's just nuts as a normal human being to imagine what the sheer forces while driving an F1 car flat out through a high speed corner would feel like.

I'm picturing the sensation of wearing sticky-soled sneakers while walking on a sidewalk coated in glue!

My uncle shared with me an older 'driver's perspective' book he was reading and one passage stuck out when discussing the talent in a F1 field, and the ability to negotiate curves. Basically it said everyone is capable of going around turns at amazing speeds while the top 5-6 drivers had that 'extra ability. Drivers 4, 5 & 6 would make your hair stand up if you had the ability to sit next to them. They negotiate curves at maximum mechanical grip nearly 100% of the time. The top 2-3? They are always at 100% and can actually lose grip with the ability to rein it back in during just about every turn. The author did a much better description than I am here, but the mental image of driving at the edge, and over it for much of the lap...at those speeds...made me sweat. Godly talent!