[friedman] Rangers Are Thinking "More and More" About Keeping Kreider

[Mr.wiskers]

Are you really judging a 20 yr old? Really?

 

Joey Keane was a 2018 3rd Rd pick, He?s 20 yrs old and his numbers in the minors, OHL have always been good. Where as Gilmour was a 23-24 yr old free agent signing. Gilmours numbers were never good throughout his minor league seasons other than 1 yr in the AHL when he was 25 yrs old. Keane made the AHL All-Star in his 1st year in the AHL. Did Gilmour ever make an All-Star?

 

 

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[LindG1000]

I really don't get the overall desire from this board to unload DeAngelo. And now it for whatever?

 

It's a few things.

 

1 - His asking price is unclear. If he wants Rasmus Andersson numbers....we're good. Sign here, Tony. If he wants Dougie Hamilton numbers? We're in a pickle. Let's not entertain the possibility of Tyson Barrie numbers.

2 - We are absolutely blessed with RHD right now. Trouba, Fox, ADA, Keane, Lundkvist, and I believe Miller are all RHD either already on the team or knocking hard on the door. Moving one of them for a position of need is very much a trade-from-strength to address weakness move that we can do, and ADA is the one whose contract is up and whose raise could come in at a number we can't afford. I'd reckon you can knock literally all of them off the list except ADA because they're either on ELCs or have full NMCs

3 - We could use a young C/W in a similar spot, so when we look at teams in need of RHD and have a young wing or center that are due for or just signed a new deal, you start to wonder....

 

Could ADA get us Max Domi? William Nylander? Jakub Vrana? Dylan Strome? Are any of those guys better fits in our system moving forward than ADA?

 

It's not really a "we want to unload him" so much as it is "if we're gonna spend 6m to keep him, is he really the best option for spending our 6m?"

[BrooksBurner]

It's a few things.

 

1 - His asking price is unclear. If he wants Rasmus Andersson numbers....we're good. Sign here, Tony. If he wants Dougie Hamilton numbers? We're in a pickle. Let's not entertain the possibility of Tyson Barrie numbers.

2 - We are absolutely blessed with RHD right now. Trouba, Fox, ADA, Keane, Lundkvist, and I believe Miller are all RHD either already on the team or knocking hard on the door. Moving one of them for a position of need is very much a trade-from-strength to address weakness move that we can do, and ADA is the one whose contract is up and whose raise could come in at a number we can't afford. I'd reckon you can knock literally all of them off the list except ADA because they're either on ELCs or have full NMCs

3 - We could use a young C/W in a similar spot, so when we look at teams in need of RHD and have a young wing or center that are due for or just signed a new deal, you start to wonder....

 

Could ADA get us Max Domi? William Nylander? Jakub Vrana? Dylan Strome? Are any of those guys better fits in our system moving forward than ADA?

 

It's not really a "we want to unload him" so much as it is "if we're gonna spend 6m to keep him, is he really the best option for spending our 6m?"

 

Yes, because 65 point defensemen get more than 6m so that would be a bargain. We should be looking at saving the $ elsewhere if we want to make a big splash. I don't think a forward that you've mentioned would change my mind there. What might change my mind is a similarly valuable LD that we really need if they don't want to move DeAngelo to the left. Let's say...Sergachev in Tampa. That's something that would really get me thinking.

[Gravesy]

Yes, because 65 point defensemen get more than 6m so that would be a bargain. We should be looking at saving the $ elsewhere if we want to make a big splash. I don't think a forward that you've mentioned would change my mind there. What might change my mind is a similarly valuable LD that we really need if they don't want to move DeAngelo to the left. Let's say...Sergachev in Tampa. That's something that would really get me thinking.

 

 

The thing is that people seem so set in their thinking that deAngelo's production is some sort of fluke and that he's an expendable commodity. It's not, and he's not.

I mean, this is a guy who has one of the best 19 year old seasons in the history of the OHL. He put up 89 points in 55 games ffs. And he really hasn't let up after that either. He put had 43 points in his AHL rookie year, went around 0.5ppg in his first full season with the Rangers even though he was Quinn-binning a fair amount. And look at him now. He's in the top 5 in points for d-men. He's just an incredibly talented offensive d-man.

Guys like Miller and Lundkvist are exciting prospects for sure, but Miller is having a tough year in the NCAA and doesn't look as close as we might have thought he would be at this point. Lundkvist is having a great year, but he's a tiny boy playing in Sweden. And we know that league is a very inaccurate barometer of how a player might project in the NHL. He'll need a year in Hartford almost certainly. I'm not shitting on any of these guys, I like both a lot, but I don't think you can point to either of them and say trading Tony is fine as we'll have these guys filling in. They aren't sure things yet. Keane is probably the closest one, and even he is still an unknown quantity in terms of delivering at the NHL level.

There is one argument that I sort of buy, and that is whether AdA's play in the defensive zone is good enough to warrant the contract he'll likely command. He probably can't play on a 1st pair, you can't really match him against the oppositions best line. Are you really going to pay a guy who ideally gets o-zone starts 6m or thereabouts?

 

But I can help ending up thinking this guy will be a 60 point d man by the end of this season and those are really hard to find. I really don't like the idea of trading him because it's practical, or because we may or may not have guys coming through the pipeline.

That being said, everyone has their price and that's certainly true for Ada.

[Pete]

The thing is that people seem so set in their thinking that deAngelo's production is some sort of fluke and that he's an expendable commodity. It's not, and he's not.

I mean, this is a guy who has one of the best 19 year old seasons in the history of the OHL. He put up 89 points in 55 games ffs. And he really hasn't let up after that either. He put had 43 points in his AHL rookie year, went around 0.5ppg in his first full season with the Rangers even though he was Quinn-binning a fair amount. And look at him now. He's in the top 5 in points for d-men. He's just an incredibly talented offensive d-man.

Guys like Miller and Lundkvist are exciting prospects for sure, but Miller is having a tough year in the NCAA and doesn't look as close as we might have thought he would be at this point. Lundkvist is having a great year, but he's a tiny boy playing in Sweden. And we know that league is a very inaccurate barometer of how a player might project in the NHL. He'll need a year in Hartford almost certainly. I'm not shitting on any of these guys, I like both a lot, but I don't think you can point to either of them and say trading Tony is fine as we'll have these guys filling in. They aren't sure things yet. Keane is probably the closest one, and even he is still an unknown quantity in terms of delivering at the NHL level.

There is one argument that I sort of buy, and that is whether AdA's play in the defensive zone is good enough to warrant the contract he'll likely command. He probably can't play on a 1st pair, you can't really match him against the oppositions best line. Are you really going to pay a guy who ideally gets o-zone starts 6m or thereabouts?

 

But I can help ending up thinking this guy will be a 60 point d man by the end of this season and those are really hard to find. I really don't like the idea of trading him because it's practical, or because we may or may not have guys coming through the pipeline.

That being said, everyone has their price and that's certainly true for Ada.

Don't disagree here.

 

The fact is they hitched their ticket to Trouba. At $6 million, how many years do you think you're getting from ADA? Certainly not getting UFA years for that.

 

So if you get him for say 3 years at $6, he's a UFA right on the cusp or on the middle of your window.

 

Seems like right player, wrong time. So what do you do? Move from and area of strength (D) to an area of weakness (C/W). I don't think anybody wants to trade him, but you have to be optimistic about what you can get for him.

[jsm7302]

Trade the promising prospects instead of Tony D. Three years would be sufficient to see if he can replicate these numbers. Then in 3 we have the option to sell him at the TDL for even more than we could now right when our window has just burst open.

[Gravesy]

Don't disagree here.

 

The fact is they hitched their ticket to Trouba. At $6 million, how many years do you think you're getting from ADA? Certainly not getting UFA years for that.

 

So if you get him for say 3 years at $6, he's a UFA right on the cusp or on the middle of your window.

 

Seems like right player, wrong time. So what do you do? Move from and area of strength (D) to an area of weakness (C/W). I don't think anybody wants to trade him, but you have to be optimistic about what you can get for him.

 

Sure. I get that. I'm just not sure you're actually trading him from a position of strength. I mean, there isn't a single bonafide #1 D on this team or in the pipeline projecting to be one.

Trouba: Isn't one now, could develop into one. After him, you have

Fox & Ada: Highly talented offensive d-men. After that there's a whole lot of meh.

Staal is or will shortly be done.

Skjei I can take or leave. He's ok.

Smith is on the wing and unlikely to be a D man in any extended capacity for the Rangers.

Lindgren and Hajek are fine I suppose. Role players.

After that there's a bunch of prospects - some of them promising - but nonetheless, uncertain at this point.

 

There is certainly good strength in depth here. But I think it's a leap of faith saying we're fine on D going forward. And from what I can see AdA is one of the few sure things they actually have going forward.

 

Agree they somewhat painted themselves into a corner with Trouba. And I understand there are scenarios where you have little choice in moving him. I think it's a shame, but it is what it is I guess.

[Mr.wiskers]

The Salary Cap. It has been stated here time after time the Salary Cap, we don?t have the Salary Cap room to sign ADA, Strome even if we traded Kreider.

 

 

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[LindG1000]

Sure. I get that. I'm just not sure you're actually trading him from a position of strength. I mean, there isn't a single bonafide #1 D on this team or in the pipeline projecting to be one.

Trouba: Isn't one now, could develop into one. After him, you have

Fox & Ada: Highly talented offensive d-men. After that there's a whole lot of meh.

Staal is or will shortly be done.

Skjei I can take or leave. He's ok.

Smith is on the wing and unlikely to be a D man in any extended capacity for the Rangers.

Lindgren and Hajek are fine I suppose. Role players.

After that there's a bunch of prospects - some of them promising - but nonetheless, uncertain at this point.

 

There is certainly good strength in depth here. But I think it's a leap of faith saying we're fine on D going forward. And from what I can see AdA is one of the few sure things they actually have going forward.

 

Agree they somewhat painted themselves into a corner with Trouba. And I understand there are scenarios where you have little choice in moving him. I think it's a shame, but it is what it is I guess.

 

It all depends on the return for him. Nobody is untradeable.

 

I 100% get where you're coming from, and yeah, given the choice I probably trade someone else. He's priming himself for a contract that we might not be able to afford moving forward, and the possibility of bringing in a high end player at a position of need in return is tantalizing.

 

I'd also hedge my bets on Fox being able to step in and handle DeAngelo's production rather deftly way more than I'd hedge my bets on, say, Joey Keane doing that.

[Pete]

Sure. I get that. I'm just not sure you're actually trading him from a position of strength. I mean, there isn't a single bonafide #1 D on this team or in the pipeline projecting to be one.

Trouba: Isn't one now, could develop into one. After him, you have

Fox & Ada: Highly talented offensive d-men. After that there's a whole lot of meh.

Staal is or will shortly be done.

Skjei I can take or leave. He's ok.

Smith is on the wing and unlikely to be a D man in any extended capacity for the Rangers.

Lindgren and Hajek are fine I suppose. Role players.

After that there's a bunch of prospects - some of them promising - but nonetheless, uncertain at this point.

 

There is certainly good strength in depth here. But I think it's a leap of faith saying we're fine on D going forward. And from what I can see AdA is one of the few sure things they actually have going forward.

 

Agree they somewhat painted themselves into a corner with Trouba. And I understand there are scenarios where you have little choice in moving him. I think it's a shame, but it is what it is I guess.

Yea, again I don't disagree with the principle. But it boils back down to right player, wrong time.

 

From a prospect perspective... Based on sheer numbers we have more legit D coming (forget who's a #1 because ADA isn't that, anyway) than forwards. Of you're moving CK you almost have to get a forward back for him or of you're moving ADA.

 

Unless someone is somehow willing to give you a top 10 pick for ADA... Then I'd draft an F anyway.

[Gravesy]

The Salary Cap. It has been stated here time after time the Salary Cap, we don’t have the Salary Cap room to sign ADA, Strome even if we traded Kreider.

 

 

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That’s only true if everything else stays the same. There are several roster moves that could be made. You could go through arbitration again with a view to signing him once the cap eases up season after next.

Depends on what is made a priority.

Trading him is obviously a quick fix, and could be the right move if the return is good enough.

[LindG1000]

Yea, again I don't disagree with the principle. But it boils back down to right player, wrong time.

 

From a prospect perspective... Based on sheer numbers we have more legit D coming (forget who's a #1 because ADA isn't that, anyway) than forwards. Of you're moving CK you almost have to get a forward back for him or of you're moving ADA.

 

Unless someone is somehow willing to give you a top 10 pick for ADA... Then I'd draft an F anyway.

 

It wouldn't shock me if someone did. Figure he's pacing some 60 points, 25 years old going into next season?

 

Ottawa's interesting in that scenario. They're going to have two top 10 picks, a shit-ton of cap space, and one RHD on the roster for next season. That RHD is Nikita Zaitsev.

[BrooksBurner]

It wouldn't shock me if someone did. Figure he's pacing some 60 points, 25 years old going into next season?

 

Ottawa's interesting in that scenario. They're going to have two top 10 picks, a shit-ton of cap space, and one RHD on the roster for next season. That RHD is Nikita Zaitsev.

 

Even if it was on the table, I doubt I would trade DeAngelo for a top 10 pick. He's young and already at a level that you hope a top 10 pick can pan out to be.

[Dunny]

They already have Chabot locked up. They have that premium offensive D man. And Brannstrom.

 

If we didn't have Panarin their rebuild would be ahead of ours. They hired a better coach and made better trades. I won't go so far as to say they have drafted better, but I'd rather have Tkachuk over Kakko.

 

I think Dorian got memed in to oblivion, but he's much more stute than given credit form

[Keirik]

I think ADA is so much more important to our future than others do. If we are saying right player, wrong time, then the same can be said for Ziby, Panarin, and even someone like Strome. He’s a 60 point defenseman. Lock him up for 3-4 years where u might get him a tad cheaper so he lands right into his UFA years for a huge payday. If it’s not here so what? 3-4 years from now he might be 1 of 3 offensive guys we have. Who knows. He will still he just as tradeable the year his contract is expiring if we aren’t competing for a cup (I think we will though). If it’s February 2023 and ADA is 3rd in defenseman in scoring and on the block, he still would bring home a haul and probably one bigger than now since he would really be established as an elite offensive Dman.

 

If we are at a point where we are president trophy territory and don’t want to lose him........well I can live with that. They probably are trading Georgiev for hopefully a pick and a Kreider replacement. They probably are trading Kreider as well for some prime assets. Keep ADA here, buyout/trade two bad defensive contracts in Staal and Smith even if it means possibly giving back one smaller asset to sweeten the pot on taking Smith and try to understand that really aren’t THAT far from competing. We have to trust some of the talent we have and already drafted.

[RangersIn7]

Yea, again I don't disagree with the principle. But it boils back down to right player, wrong time.

 

From a prospect perspective... Based on sheer numbers we have more legit D coming (forget who's a #1 because ADA isn't that, anyway) than forwards. Of you're moving CK you almost have to get a forward back for him or of you're moving ADA.

 

Unless someone is somehow willing to give you a top 10 pick for ADA... Then I'd draft an F anyway.

 

It’s totally bad timing with him

That and it won’t be long till Fox is consistently playing more minutes than him. A big chunk of money to ADA to play third pairing is tough to do unless they’re willing to move one of the righties to the left and keep them there

[Phil]

21. Chris Kreider took a full practice on Tuesday and will be in the lineup for the Rangers on Wednesday. If St. Louis is not his eventual destination, one of the Blues’ fallback options would be Florida’s Mike Hoffman. St. Louis considered him twice before, and did extensive research before Ottawa traded him. Of course, the Panthers have to decide if they’re going to go this route. They are looking for some defensive help. In their last 25 games, they’ve given up fewer than 28 shots just once. Six of those games were in the forties, including Tuesday’s 1-0 overtime loss to Columbus. The goaltending numbers may not look great, but those guys have been pretty good.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-dustin-byfuglien-winnipeg-jets-contract/

[RangersIn7]

"There are at least eight teams, we believe, that have expressed interest in Chris Kreider, who tops the TSN trade bait list. No surprise there," LeBrun said. "The asking price will be similar, at least, to what the New York Rangers got last year for Kevin Hayes when he went to the Winnipeg Jets. You may remember that the Rangers got Brendan Lemieux and a first-round pick from the Jets, so, a hefty price if you're getting Chris Kreider this year. We should note the Rangers have not lost hope on trying to re-sign Chris Kreider, but as of Thursday, no contract talks yet between Kreider's camp and the New York Rangers."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/nhl-rumors-heres-rangers-asking-181149468.html

 

Confirming the report per LeBrun

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

We have Panarin for how many more years? Strome has chemistry with the guy and is having a career year. Why would they move him? DeAngelo has blossomed into everything you would want in an Offensive D man and we are going to sell him for some Hope's that one of these guys in the system blossoms into a 60 point Offensive D man? Insanity....if these prospects are so promising then sell them for a center. Why sell a known for an unknown?

 

There is no sensible answer to your question. Some people just want to get rid of proven players to try some unproven prospect. Bunch of so-called NYR fans. Makes one eyes roll, don't you agree?

[Pete]

There is no sensible answer to your question. Some people just want to get rid of proven players to try some unproven prospect. Bunch of so-called NYR fans. Makes one eyes roll, don't you agree?

Post your lineup where everyone fits under the cap.

 

I'll wait.

 

Don't you go dyin' on me!

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

Post your lineup where everyone fits under the cap.

 

I'll wait.

 

Don't you go dyin' on me!

 

[RangersIn7]

There is no sensible answer to your question. Some people just want to get rid of proven players to try some unproven prospect. Bunch of so-called NYR fans. Makes one eyes roll, don't you agree?

 

Moving proven players for picks, prospects, and younger players is the general idea of a rebuild.

 

Who do you want to do desperately keep? And what other players come at the expense?

It’s delusional to keep Kreider at this point.

You’ll lose others. And they’ll be younger guys.

[RangersIn7]

I think ADA is so much more important to our future than others do. If we are saying right player, wrong time, then the same can be said for Ziby, Panarin, and even someone like Strome. He?s a 60 point defenseman. Lock him up for 3-4 years where u might get him a tad cheaper so he lands right into his UFA years for a huge payday. If it?s not here so what? 3-4 years from now he might be 1 of 3 offensive guys we have. Who knows. He will still he just as tradeable the year his contract is expiring if we aren?t competing for a cup (I think we will though). If it?s February 2023 and ADA is 3rd in defenseman in scoring and on the block, he still would bring home a haul and probably one bigger than now since he would really be established as an elite offensive Dman.

 

If we are at a point where we are president trophy territory and don?t want to lose him........well I can live with that. They probably are trading Georgiev for hopefully a pick and a Kreider replacement. They probably are trading Kreider as well for some prime assets. Keep ADA here, buyout/trade two bad defensive contracts in Staal and Smith even if it means possibly giving back one smaller asset to sweeten the pot on taking Smith and try to understand that really aren?t THAT far from competing. We have to trust some of the talent we have and already drafted.

 

He?s a tough one.

Totally agree that defensemen who produce offensively like he does are rare and oh so valuable, even if they are very deficient in their own end, which he most certainly is. And at 24 he?s young enough to be a part of this.

 

But being realistic, is he honestly better than Trouba or Fox?

The answer to that is no. Even with Trouba?s struggles, all around he?s significantly better than DeAngelo. And Fox has been the best D on the team this year. Both of them are going to be playing huge minutes moving forward.

 

What does that leave for ADA? 16-18 minutes a night?

A long-term extension probably costs north of 5 million per.

If that?s the number, can you justify that amount of money for a bottom pairing guy?

 

That?s the big question

[Keirik]

He’s a tough one.

Totally agree that defensemen who produce offensively like he does are rare and oh so valuable, even if they are very deficient in their own end, which he most certainly is. And at 24 he’s young enough to be a part of this.

 

But being realistic, is he honestly better than Trouba or Fox?

The answer to that is no. Even with Trouba’s struggles, all around he’s significantly better than DeAngelo. And Fox has been the best D on the team this year. Both of them are going to be playing huge minutes moving forward.

 

What does that leave for ADA? 16-18 minutes a night?

A long-term extension probably costs north of 5 million per.

If that’s the number, can you justify that amount of money for a bottom pairing guy?

 

That’s the big question

All 3 of them are already on the team and ADA is producing at the pace he's at. He's outlr best offensive defenseman. It's honestly not even close in my mind. He's more dynamic. There's nothing wrong with having d with different roles. He's not even as bad defensively as he's made out to be. He won't en any Norris but he plays with Marc Staal and still manages right now to be a +

[Pete]

All 3 of them are already on the team and ADA is producing at the pace he's at. He's outlr best offensive defenseman. It's honestly not even close in my mind. He's more dynamic. There's nothing wrong with having d with different roles. He's not even as bad defensively as he's made out to be. He won't en any Norris but he plays with Marc Staal and still manages right now to be a +

You could argue that Staal defensive metrics are dragged by ADA.

 

Let's not conflate what he his... Completely one dimensions offensive D... That's fine but it alrers his tag.