[brooks] Rangers Getting Alarmingly Close to Forcing Jeff Gorton's Hand

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

I think he means the player more than the actual captain, or at least I hope.

 

 

Exactly!

[Future]

The above portion of your notes needs to be given great consideration. Especially concussion history.

 

If any fan or mgmt want to trade McD, it is not really about trading McD. Mostly, it should be motivated by a target in mind, on a team that would benefit from McD and sign him long term. I like one win-win trade, where trading McD makes sense. The maniacal Toronto fans love to discuss acquiring that #1 Dman. On the HF and Toronto boards they know either Nylander or Marner would do it. They know Drew D, Keith and others are past their prime. They like McD. I love those two players. Both can play C. You have to give to get. No one is giving away their #1 D and not getting a young top line player in return.

 

Toronto's choice of Nylander or Marner. The Rangers might have to add something to this one, but not so much as to make it prohibitive.

 

Not pointing to you Josh, but I'm not interested in trading McD for RNH (who I like) or even Duchene. Tavares will be an FA and I don't think we should sign him to a 7-8 year 10 mil deal even if we don't give up assets.

If the Rangers are trading Mac, then young D also has to come back. Adding Marner doesn't matter if you don't have a #1 D. Skjei isn't right now and nobody else on the Rangers is a legitimate top-pair defender. The Rangers would basically be the pre-McDavid Oilers.

 

Toronto also doesn't need LHD - at least not any more than they need RHD (Ron Hainsey is playing 21:00 a night with Reilly on the right). They'd be better off going after Doughty as a FA or trading before next year and looking to extend him. He's not past his prime - he's just 27 and has always been a better player than Mac.

 

If we're going to talk about trading Mac, then we need to be looking at teams with a glut of young defenseman, not forwards. A middle-six C and blue chip D prospect would have to be the return, unless you're going full tank mode. But even then, there's no guarantee you're going to get another #1 D in the draft, chances are, you're going to get an elite forward and then ending up flipping him or the likes of Marner/Zib for the #1 D you just traded away.

[Giacomin]

If the Rangers are trading Mac, then young D also has to come back. Adding Marner doesn't matter if you don't have a #1 D. Skjei isn't right now and nobody else on the Rangers is a legitimate top-pair defender. The Rangers would basically be the pre-McDavid Oilers.

 

Toronto also doesn't need LHD - at least not any more than they need RHD (Ron Hainsey is playing 21:00 a night with Reilly on the right). They'd be better off going after Doughty as a FA or trading before next year and looking to extend him. He's not past his prime - he's just 27 and has always been a better player than Mac.

 

If we're going to talk about trading Mac, then we need to be looking at teams with a glut of young defenseman, not forwards. A middle-six C and blue chip D prospect would have to be the return, unless you're going full tank mode. But even then, there's no guarantee you're going to get another #1 D in the draft, chances are, you're going to get an elite forward and then ending up flipping him or the likes of Marner/Zib for the #1 D you just traded away.

 

Some of this emerged from the discussion about the importance of top line Centers, players who can actually drive play and are a threat whenever they are on the ice. Those guys are just as hard to find as a #1D.

 

Part of this came from the upcoming McD dilemma, the idea that this team may not make the playoffs (which shaves/wastes another year off McD's contract) and Josh's post. Most of us agree that it should be a special return to trade McD. Nylander and Marner have the potential to be great and they are young. Toronto might prefer a righty, but they still need a #1 D and have a potential overload of young great C's. Are you saying you would not trade McD for one of the two, straight up, right now? Curious?

 

Sidenote: why would a team trade an up and coming Dman and a 2C for McD? Maybe if they have 3 RHDs and no LHDs? But who is that? Only place close might be Winnipeg, but they would unlikely be able to resign McD. Also, we need to get the best player in a trade like that. Not really looking for us to do a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trade. If we trade McD, we need quality over quantity. We need something we typically can't get, like a Marner or Nylander.

 

Also I like our depth at D with Graves and Pionk waiting in the wings. We can win with an offensive juggernaut and a D lead by Skjei and the others, if we can just add a solid second pairing guy. Skjei is a budding 1 LHD anyway.

 

So, I disagree. If the Rangers are considering trading McD we do not need a young Dman coming back more than we need a young star scorer/playmaker who has superstar potential.

[Future]

Some of this emerged from the discussion about the importance of top line Centers, players who can actually drive play and are a threat whenever they are on the ice. Those guys are just as hard to find as a #1D.

 

Part of this came from the upcoming McD dilemma, the idea that this team may not make the playoffs (which shaves/wastes another year off McD's contract) and Josh's post. Most of us agree that it should be a special return to trade McD. Nylander and Marner have the potential to be great and they are young. Toronto might prefer a righty, but they still need a #1 D and have a potential overload of young great C's. Are you saying you would not trade McD for one of the two, straight up, right now? Curious?

 

Sidenote: why would a team with up and coming Dman trade him and a 2C for McD. Maybe if they have 3 RHDs and no LHDs? But who is that? Only place close might be Winnipeg, but they would unlikely be able to resign McD. Plus, I don't want to be on sides of the trades where we trade a star and do not get the best player in the deal.

 

Also I like our depth at D with Graves and Pionk waiting in the wings. We can win with an offensive juggernaut and a D lead by Skjei and the others, if we can just add a solid second pairing guy.

No, I wouldn't make that trade right now because, currently, neither one of them is a center, let alone a number 1 center. Are they nice, young players? Absolutely. But neither is even a C, let alone a #1C. It's a huge assumption that they'd be as productive without playing with Matthews/JVR/Kadri. From a pure personnel standpoint, Toronto makes that trade in a heartbeat - even though I think RHD is a more pressing need for them - but I don't think the Rangers do.

 

A team would do that if they were a contender that had prospects coming up but was a defenseman away from contending now. Someone like Dallas might flip, say, Heiskinen and Devin Shore for Mac, if they thought it brought them a cup. Tampa might flip Foote and Namestnikov. There are lots of scenarios where a team would spend big for a #1D and be willing to give up a good player and a strong prospect to do it.

 

Marner/Nylander doesn't make this team an offensive juggernaut. You'd have to add a bunch of pieces for that, especially if you need to compensate for a brutal D corps.

[Giacomin]

Thanks for taking a actual stand about a specific trade. Josh did too. Too many just spout generalities, making their take just another goofy opinion. Good debate.

 

Nylander and Marner are better than any forward on our team and are true top liners. They can and have played C (Nylander especially) and are super young and ascending. Marner was a fav of mine in the OHL and I knew Toronto would not pass on a guy their mgmt knew intimately as a dynamic forward. One has to be able to spot stars before their star has fully ascended, to be ahead of the curve. And they are super fun to watch. Nic Ehlers is another one I'd love to see every night, even if he is a better winger. We all want McDavid, Eichel and Mathews, but they are hands-off generational talent. If you can get someone a notch below, before they hit their prime, I feel ya gotta do it. There are not many of those guys available either.

 

Otherwise, I don't really have a need to trade McD.

 

Weird anecdote - The Rangers were contending for the Cup in 94 and there was this kid in Winnipeg (who few knew), but I loved, as a scoring power forward. I hoped for a few years we could land him. It was Keith Tzachuk. It took multiple teams and the turn of the century before Ranger fans started thinking he should be a Ranger. By then it was kind of a joke. Every Ranger fan wanted him, but that train had already passed.

[Giacomin]

Also, Tampa has a #1 LHD in Hedman, scratch them. Florida's GM doesn't like to trade in the division, so rule them out.

[jjweimar]

Also, Tampa has a #1 LHD in Hedman, scratch them. Florida's GM doesn't like to trade in the division, so rule them out.

Florida or Tampa and both are not in Rangers division

[Giacomin]

Florida or Tampa and both are not in Rangers division

 

My mistake, meant conference. Still.... Trade deadline 2016 - Florida received a better offer from us for Pirri, but took a lower pick to go out of conference. Doesn't mean they'll never trade with us, but less likely with this regime.

 

Yzerman has dealt with us before. Point with Tampa is that they have Hedman.

[Future]

Thanks for taking a actual stand about a specific trade. Josh did too. Too many just spout generalities, making their take just another goofy opinion. Good debate.

 

Nylander and Marner are better than any forward on our team and are true top liners. They can and have played C (Nylander especially) and are super young and ascending. Marner was a fav of mine in the OHL and I knew Toronto would not pass on a guy their mgmt knew intimately as a dynamic forward. One has to be able to spot stars before their star has fully ascended, to be ahead of the curve. And they are super fun to watch. Nic Ehlers is another one I'd love to see every night, even if he is a better winger. We all want McDavid, Eichel and Mathews, but they are hands-off generational talent. If you can get someone a notch below, before they hit their prime, I feel ya gotta do it. There are not many of those guys available either.

 

Otherwise, I don't really have a need to trade McD.

.

Marner and Nylander are not better than every forward we have. They have really high ceilings, but let's not overstate what they are right now. Marner is skating as a 4th line winger right now. I agree that you need to try to get stars before they fully reach their potential, but it's not as if their own GMs don't see their talent. The key is getting them either when their value is low (Seguin from Boston) or when a contender thinks a guy can put them over the top (Forsberg from WAS). Sometimes those two things go hand-in-hand but, in the case of TOR, with a pressing need for a top D (even if I don't think Mac should be their first target) and a high-upside player on their 4th line, that kind of trade makes sense. But it doesn't make the Rangers better right now.

Also, Tampa has a #1 LHD in Hedman, scratch them. Florida's GM doesn't like to trade in the division, so rule them out.

You can roll with 2 #1 defenseman - especially when you currently have Braydon Coburn and Dan Girardi in your top 4. It's what Anaheim did with Pronger and Niedermeyer. Florida's not in the division, but they'd be another team that makes sense. They're in a tricky spot because they've got a lot invested on the D, but something like Tippett and McCoshen for Mac is in line with what I'm talking about.

[Future]

My mistake, meant conference. Still.... Trade deadline 2016 - Florida received a better offer from us for Pirri, but took a lower pick to go out of conference. Doesn't mean they'll never trade with us, but less likely with this regime.

 

Yzerman has dealt with us before. Point with Tampa is that they have Hedman.

Where did you see that we offered more for Pirri? They did send us a pick for just the rights to Yandle and sent us Kampfer for McIlrath.

[Giacomin]

If you were a GM of a team and could choose any Ranger forward to add to your team or one of Nylander or Marner, do you think you'd choose a Ranger? I would not and I doubt you would.

 

I wrote about the Pirri trade here after the trade deadline, not too far after the deadline. I cited the source, think it was a quote from the GM himself. Good point about those swaps though, that is why I don't think it is a hard and fast rule with Florida. As for Florida, they have to make Barkov, Huberdeau or Trocheck as part of the deal. Maybe they are a candidate for a multi player deal. Or I'll give you one combo deal I might consider. Rakell and Manson.

 

We'll if Tampa is interested in McD, Kucherov needs to be the piece coming here. Respectfully, that combo deal or any two Tampa players (Hedman/Vasilevskiy obviously not included) does not work for me.

 

For fun, the list of young forwards I'd trade McD 1 for 1 for, is pretty small. The big 3, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Ehlers, Nylander, Marner, Laine, Schiefele. A couple of other wingers would have to be considered. Particularly Gaudreau, Tkachuk and maybe Arvidsson.

 

Didn't think much about our division and doubt Columbus would consider trading Wennberg with their D.

[Future]

If you were a GM of a team and could choose any Ranger forward to add to your team or one of Nylander or Marner, do you think you'd choose a Ranger? I would not and I doubt you would.

Well that depends, what's the context? If I'm rebuilding and don't plan on winning any time in the near future, then yea, they're probably the choice. If I want to win right now, I'm taking any one of Zib, Miller, Zucc, Nash, Kreider before them.

 

It also really depends on how a lineup is constructed.

[josh]

Well that depends, what's the context? If I'm rebuilding and don't plan on winning any time in the near future, then yea, they're probably the choice. If I want to win right now, I'm taking any one of Zib, Miller, Zucc, Nash, Kreider before them.

 

It also really depends on how a lineup is constructed.

 

Toronto is winning.

 

???

[Giacomin]

Well that depends, what's the context? If I'm rebuilding and don't plan on winning any time in the near future, then yea, they're probably the choice. If I want to win right now, I'm taking any one of Zib, Miller, Zucc, Nash, Kreider before them.

 

It also really depends on how a lineup is constructed.

 

Ha ha, you're joking right? You want to get fired after your first move? I can't think of 1 team where you would not add one of the Toronto forwards. The context is your in charge of 1 team (Aneheim, Chicago, Pitt, I don't care) and get to add 1 forward today. You get him, his contract, status, full cap hit etc.

 

In what world would you take a pending FA like Nash over either. Zuc is 29 w/ only 2 years control. You think Zib at 24 has anything close to their upside. Is he even a better player at this point. Miller or Kreider? Have you had a momentary lapse of reason? What team would better off taking a Ranger?

[fletch]

If you were a GM of a team and could choose any Ranger forward to add to your team or one of Nylander or Marner, do you think you'd choose a Ranger? I would not and I doubt you would.

 

I wrote about the Pirri trade here after the trade deadline, not too far after the deadline. I cited the source, think it was a quote from the GM himself. Good point about those swaps though, that is why I don't think it is a hard and fast rule with Florida. As for Florida, they have to make Barkov, Huberdeau or Trocheck as part of the deal. Maybe they are a candidate for a multi player deal. Or I'll give you one combo deal I might consider. Rakell and Manson.

 

We'll if Tampa is interested in McD, Kucherov needs to be the piece coming here. Respectfully, that combo deal or any two Tampa players (Hedman/Vasilevskiy obviously not included) does not work for me.

 

For fun, the list of young forwards I'd trade McD 1 for 1 for, is pretty small. The big 3, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Ehlers, Nylander, Marner, Laine, Schiefele. A couple of other wingers would have to be considered. Particularly Gaudreau, Tkachuk and maybe Arvidsson.

 

Didn't think much about our division and doubt Columbus would consider trading Wennberg with their D.

 

Kucherov is one of the ten best players in the league. Need a lot more than McD to pry him from TB

[Respecttheblue]

The above portion of your notes needs to be given great consideration. Especially concussion history.

 

If any fan or mgmt want to trade McD, it is not really about trading McD. Mostly, it should be motivated by a target in mind, on a team that would benefit from McD and sign him long term. I like one win-win trade, where trading McD makes sense. The maniacal Toronto fans love to discuss acquiring that #1 Dman. On the HF and Toronto boards they know either Nylander or Marner would do it. They know Drew D, Keith and others are past their prime. They like McD. I love those two players. Both can play C. You have to give to get. No one is giving away their #1 D and not getting a young top line player in return.

 

Toronto's choice of Nylander or Marner. The Rangers might have to add something to this one, but not so much as to make it prohibitive.

 

Not pointing to you Josh, but I'm not interested in trading McD for RNH (who I like) or even Duchene. Tavares will be an FA and I don't think we should sign him to a 7-8 year 10 mil deal even if we don't give up assets.

 

If push comes to shove ... and things do in fact implode badly ... and only if ...

 

I'm so fed up with bandaids and win-now fixes -- I'm hungry for moves made with future young studs in mind. I love McD, but he is a big asset we have who is at that pivotal point in his health and career and soon enough contract that I would consider the offers. Same goes for some other forwards previously untouchable in my mind.

 

But that is all a big IF to me in October -- I think the reversion to the mean is more likely, with or without a coaching change or another damn freaking frustrating band-aid trade.

 

That said, if the gestalt of this team is going to be put to the test meaningfully, better in the first half than the second half.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

[Fatfrancesa]

Ranger fans overrating their players again? Laine, kucherov, draisitl, barkov, schiffle straight up for Mcd? Too funny

[Future]

Ha ha, you're joking right? You want to get fired after your first move? I can't think of 1 team where you would not add one of the Toronto forwards. The context is your in charge of 1 team (Aneheim, Chicago, Pitt, I don't care) and get to add 1 forward today. You get him, his contract, status, full cap hit etc.

 

In what world would you take a pending FA like Nash over either. Zuc is 29 w/ only 2 years control. You think Zib at 24 has anything close to their upside. Is he even a better player at this point. Miller or Kreider? Have you had a momentary lapse of reason? What team would better off taking a Ranger?

That's not context. Every team is different. If I'm a playoff contender like Nashville or Columbus with a strong top 6 but questions at center, I'm taking Zib. If I'm Edmonton, who could use two-way depth scoring and already has a lot of young players, Zucc is a better fit. Why would Chicago want another young guy right now? DeBrincat, Hartman, and Schmaltz are all in their first or second year. There's no room for another 20-year-old on the roster. You also have to take cost into consideration and the fact that, to get young guys, you have to give up roster players which means that the immediate improvement is minimal so, on a team like Chicago, you'd be giving up one of those three...flipping Hartman and a prospect for Nylander doesn't really make you any better. If I'm Buffalo or Arizona, yea, I'm taking Nylander/Marner and it's not a question.

 

Nylander and Marner are better than the Rangers forwards long term. But this is a league where trades are generally for the short term so it's not an absolute that those guys would be a better addition than every Rangers forward.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

I just got a text that Ruff is leading the am skate from a reliable source.... lets not read too much into it just yet.

[Guest]

That's not context. Every team is different. If I'm a playoff contender like Nashville or Columbus with a strong top 6 but questions at center, I'm taking Zib. If I'm Edmonton, who could use two-way depth scoring and already has a lot of young players, Zucc is a better fit. Why would Chicago want another young guy right now? DeBrincat, Hartman, and Schmaltz are all in their first or second year. There's no room for another 20-year-old on the roster. You also have to take cost into consideration and the fact that, to get young guys, you have to give up roster players which means that the immediate improvement is minimal so, on a team like Chicago, you'd be giving up one of those three...flipping Hartman and a prospect for Nylander doesn't really make you any better. If I'm Buffalo or Arizona, yea, I'm taking Nylander/Marner and it's not a question.

 

Nylander and Marner are better than the Rangers forwards long term. But this is a league where trades are generally for the short term so it's not an absolute that those guys would be a better addition than every Rangers forward.

 

There's also cap considerations. A team like Edmonton has 62M with only 14 players signed for next season with McDavid ($12.5M) Draisaitl ($8.5M), Lucic ($6M) and Nugent-Hopkins ($6M) under contract. They don't want to add another $7M or so in Nylander to that mix when what they need is help on defense.

[josh]

There's also cap considerations. A team like Edmonton has 62M with only 14 players signed for next season with McDavid ($12.5M) Draisaitl ($8.5M), Lucic ($6M) and Nugent-Hopkins ($6M) under contract. They don't want to add another $7M or so in Nylander to that mix when what they need is help on defense.

 

That's the only logical statement to not take Marner or Nylander, in this discussion .

[Giacomin]

Ranger fans overrating their players again? Laine, kucherov, draisitl, barkov, schiffle straight up for Mcd? Too funny

 

So you agree with me, that is what I'm saying to Future, you are missing the point.

 

The hypothetical demonstrates a few points. First, those are the "young forwards" who I'd trade McD for. He is not untradeable nor do we have to get a Dman back in a trade to be improved by the trade. However, like you I'm also saying none of the opposing GM's would make that trade. Future is saying that at least Toronto would do one of Marner or Nylander, but we should not. I said either would be the best forward on our team now and well into the future. Future disagreed and later qualified and quantified his answer.

 

BTW, Future is still making a mistake as the Columbus GM or even Edm. Edm would solve the problem by dealing Lucic or RNH, (possibly for D help) rather than pass on Nylander. And why would Columbus prefer Zib to Nylander? I'd want JD fired if I was a Blue Jacket fan.

[Future]

So you agree with me, that is what I'm saying to Future, you are missing the point.

 

The hypothetical demonstrates a few points. First, those are the "young forwards" who I'd trade McD for. He is not untradeable nor do we have to get a Dman back in a trade to be improved by the trade. However, like you I'm also saying none of the opposing GM's would make that trade. Future is saying that at least Toronto would do one of Marner or Nylander, but we should not. I said either would be the best forward on our team now and well into the future. Future disagreed and later qualified and quantified his answer.

 

BTW, Future is still making a mistake as the Columbus GM or even Edm. Edm would solve the problem by dealing Lucic or RNH, (possibly for D help) rather than pass on Nylander. And why would Columbus prefer Zib to Nylander? I'd want JD fired if I was a Blue Jacket fan.

I never said they wouldn't be the best forward on this team. I said in the short-term they wouldn't be. They're not. I don't see how you can make the argument that Marner is better than, say, Zib or Miller, when he's playing 4th line wing. I've said multiple times that long-term, yes, they are better than the Rangers forwards. But that doesn't mean they'd make the Rangers better, especially if you're trading Mac.

 

I will continue to maintain that a young middle-six C and a strong prospect defender would be a far better return than one of those two. The Rangers are top 10 in the league in 5v5 chances but can't keep the puck out of their own net. How does trading your only good defender for a marginal offensive improvement make you better?

 

Zib is a center, Nylander plays wing. Plus, cost.

If EDM has to flip Lucic, then they're giving up Lucic, the cost of Nylander (which is really high and they don't have the assets for anyways, probably starts with Nurse), and signing a third young player to a massive extension for what improvement? How does Nylander make them better if you lose all that and he has to play on a line with like Jokinen and Strome? They'd be a 2-line team with no defense.

 

You're looking at players in a vacuum. In a vacuum, yea, Marner and Nylander are more attractive singular pieces. For them go to anywhere but Toronto, you can't look at them singularly.

 

And fwiw, I don't consider Nylander and Marner to be the same calibre of players as those mentioned that you wouldn't trade Mac for. Not yet anyways. Mac could fetch Marner, no way he gets Laine.

[josh]

That's the only logical statement to not take Marner or Nylander, in this discussion .

 

You know what..,

 

No. These are guys you make cap space for, now and in the future.

[Giacomin]

You know what..,

 

No. These are guys you make cap space for, now and in the future.

 

Bullseye!