It's Miller Time.... To Talk About Moving Miller

[Vodka Drunkenski]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Miller plays nor is projected to play anything like those names. 

 

They were physical beasts that could contribute offensively. Miller is a big guy with great skating,  but has zero killer instinct. Not physical at all. He's poor defensively. 

 

This conversation has been had many times. Defensive instinct can't be taught. He's going to be one dimensional. That's it. That's fine. He'll be a consistent 35-40-50 point "D man"  It's not a shot. There are many one dimensional D-men in this league. He is what he is. He's not going to learn defensive awareness or decision making at age 25 or 26. . Lets stop that charade. 

 

I am in the camp that he has value as that type of player.  Yet, it's not a value that the Rangers necessarily need with Adam Fox here as the staple for offensive D men. It's kind of a luxury if you can look past the defensive warts.

 

He's not on ANY PP units consistently (I think he's been getting sniff on PP 2 only recently) So, he's not really looked at (here) as a go to for offense. If that's the case, how is he really any kind of piece that must be held on to?  Next year he'll get left over PP scraps.. Its not any kind of difference maker. 

 

I sell on a one dimensional 2nd tier offensive D man. Especially since the other trade chips are Othmann,  Perreault and Schneider whom I value way more than Miller. 

 

On another team, Miller could be a 2nd tier, 1st pairing one dimensional D man. Thats the perceived value. That means more to a team that doesn't have an Adam Fox. 

 

I'd rather pay Gustafsson for 2 more years at 2.5- 3 and get the same results  and use the asset for the bigger need. 3 C and an actual RW is more important to me than a one dimensional offensive D man that can't get PP time and isn't currently providing offense. 

 

I'll add though... He hasn't scored a goal in 21 games, yet he DOES have 7 goals on the year. He was quietly contributing as per usual earlier (kinda). He's certainly not concentrating on his defensive game,  so I don't know what his issues have been. 

 

I just think he's an extremely expendable talent that can be traded without major regret. Besides Buchnevich,  I can't think of any young player the Rangers should have major regret of moving. Maybe Skjei,  but it didn't crush the organization. Nor will trading Miller. 

 

Get a C and or a RW for Miller while you can. 

How can you talk about our so-called biggest trade chip like that????????????

[Albatrosss]

3 hours ago, Vodka Drunkenski said:

4 years later

All facts

[RangersIn7]

42 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Miller plays nor is projected to play anything like those names. 

 

They were physical beasts that could contribute offensively. Miller is a big guy with great skating,  but has zero killer instinct. Not physical at all. He's poor defensively. 

 

This conversation has been had many times. Defensive instinct can't be taught. He's going to be one dimensional. That's it. That's fine. He'll be a consistent 35-40-50 point "D man"  It's not a shot. There are many one dimensional D-men in this league. He is what he is. He's not going to learn defensive awareness or decision making at age 25 or 26. . Lets stop that charade. 

 

I am in the camp that he has value as that type of player.  Yet, it's not a value that the Rangers necessarily need with Adam Fox here as the staple for offensive D men. It's kind of a luxury if you can look past the defensive warts.

 

He's not on ANY PP units consistently (I think he's been getting sniff on PP 2 only recently) So, he's not really looked at (here) as a go to for offense. If that's the case, how is he really any kind of piece that must be held on to?  Next year he'll get left over PP scraps.. Its not any kind of difference maker. 

 

I sell on a one dimensional 2nd tier offensive D man. Especially since the other trade chips are Othmann,  Perreault and Schneider whom I value way more than Miller. 

 

On another team, Miller could be a 2nd tier, 1st pairing one dimensional D man. Thats the perceived value. That means more to a team that doesn't have an Adam Fox. 

 

I'd rather pay Gustafsson for 2 more years at 2.5- 3 and get the same results  and use the asset for the bigger need. 3 C and an actual RW is more important to me than a one dimensional offensive D man that can't get PP time and isn't currently providing offense. 

 

I'll add though... He hasn't scored a goal in 21 games, yet he DOES have 7 goals on the year. He was quietly contributing as per usual earlier (kinda). He's certainly not concentrating on his defensive game,  so I don't know what his issues have been. 

 

I just think he's an extremely expendable talent that can be traded without major regret. Besides Buchnevich,  I can't think of any young player the Rangers should have major regret of moving. Maybe Skjei,  but it didn't crush the organization. Nor will trading Miller. 

 

Get a C and or a RW for Miller while you can. 

I wasn’t making a direct comparison nor was a saying there were any similarities in style of play.

 
Simply saying that bigger framed guys on D take longer. That’s all. Cause they often do.

[Pete]

Every other NHL team: Looking for tall rangy defenseman who can skate and move the puck.

 

Rangers fans: let's get rid of ours! 

[RangersIn7]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

Every other NHL team: Looking for tall rangy defenseman who can skate and move the puck.

 

Rangers fans: let's get rid of ours! 

Yeah.

Ride him outta town on the next rail!

 

Kid didn’t play D till his senior year of high school. Goes to Wisconsin for 2 years.

Makes the team out of camp in 2020 as 20 year old, and immediately plays 20+ minutes a night.

No minors. 
 

Again…. Not playing D at all until you’re 17 and then doing so at the NHL level at 20. 
They knew it was gonna take real time. 
 

Prospects need 5 seasons. At the professional level. 

[JJ in VA]

I'd keep him and let him develop.   I see him as one of the young core players that will lead to a Cup.    Fox, Lindy, Schneider, Jones and Miller are all developing on D.   The youth on O is promising too with Laffy, Chytil (next yr), KK and maybe, Edstrom, improving daily.   

 

I'm impressed with the team's trajectory.  Nice mix of vets.  Miller will prove worthy.   Teach him and keep him !

[Vodka Drunkenski]

I wouldn’t put much stock into Chytil

[JJ in VA]

Oops - How could I forget Cuylle !   Love that kid.   

 

Anyway, I think Filip can rehab and make it back.   He could be a 10+ year asset.   When he's right, he is very effective.   Maybe add 10 lbs?

[JJ in VA]

You can heal your brain, but I get the apprehension.    Scary injuries.

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

I wasn’t making a direct comparison nor was a saying there were any similarities in style of play.

 
Simply saying that bigger framed guys on D take longer. That’s all. Cause they often do.

Big framed physical D men take longer to put it all together. Big framed non physical D men, offensive D men, remain that. 

 

I don't see the need to bring up 2 very physical all time greats into the conversation. Bring up Tom Poti instead. That's a better comparison. 

 

 

There will be no physical advancement from Miller and that is fine. There will be no epiphany in his brain to all of a sudden, somehow possess the proper instinct to be a defensive type. This too is ok.

 

Just come to terms with it. He's an offensive D man. He's not going to be well rounded. He's not going to turn the corner defensively. He can most definitely improve offensively though. That's because that's what he's good at.

 

He's 24. Not 18. This player isn't going to change much. 

Edited February 18 by The Dude

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Every other NHL team: Looking for tall rangy defenseman who can skate and move the puck.

 

Rangers fans: let's get rid of ours! 

 

Everytime I see this thread bumped, I'm like..."Here we go again!"  LOL

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Every other NHL team: Looking for tall rangy defenseman who can skate and move the puck.

 

Rangers fans: let's get rid of ours! 

Every other NHL team: Looking for tall rangy defenseman who can skate and move the puck AND PLAY DEFENSE. 

 

Ranger fans: I didn't mind Tom Poti. Honestly I didn't. 

Edited February 18 by The Dude

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

Everytime I see this thread bumped, I'm like..."Here we go again!"  LOL

You mean you haven’t changed your mind yet?

[Br4d]

Nobody is suggesting moving Miller for less talent than he represents.  The argument for moving him is to change the Ranger's overall balance and make the team more ready to compete at a high level in the playoffs.

 

If we can get a youngish C or RW who is ready to play now it is probably worth giving up Miller to make that transition.

[RangersIn7]

8 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Big framed physical D men take longer to put it all together. Big framed non physical D men, offensive D men, remain that. 

 

I don't see the need to bring up 2 very physical all time greats into the conversation. Bring up Tom Poti instead. That's a better comparison. 

 

 

There will be no physical advancement from Miller and that is fine. There will be no epiphany in his brain to all of a sudden, somehow possess the proper instinct to be a defensive type. This too is ok.

 

Just come to terms with it. He's an offensive D man. He's not going to be well rounded. He's not going to turn the corner defensively. He can most definitely improve offensively though. That's because that's what he's good at.

 

He's 24. Not 18. This player isn't going to change much. 

The point I was making is apparently lost on you.

 

And that’s fine.

Not knocking you. You have your POV. 
 

But don’t act as you have a crystal ball.

You have no idea.

 

You were pounding the desk against LaFreniere.

 

How’d that go?

Not learn anything there?
 

And I’ll also add that I think what you said about Miller in a previous post, something to the effect of him being more offensively inclined than defensively so is fair. And the fact that you said it as not being a knock was fair too.

You can point out deficiencies and still think a player has virtues.

 He may well evolve into an offensive D man.

I don’t expect, nor have I ever expected, him to be prime Rod Langway. 
Nor do I think he’ll be some two way marvel.

 

But the notion that he won’t improve- be it on either side, is ridiculous.

Forget about his age.

He was good enough to play 21 minutes a night in the NHL, with no minor league experience, right away, is a testament.

 

Yes.

I think his future lies more on the offensive side too.

Do I think he’ll be great defensively? No.

Do I think he’ll improve there? Yes. 

Personally, the charade I’d end is the pairings in the top-4.

 

Just put Miller with Fox and Lindgren with Trouba.

 

Also…food for thought…. Last year in the Devils series, the Miller-Trouba pairing had no goals scored against them.

[RangersIn7]

Chara needed 5 seasons to figure it out.

Pronger needed 5 seasons to figure it out.

 

Guys take how long the take.

 

Trade them too soon.., someone else gets the benefits of their best hockey.

[BrooksBurner]

Folks are worried too much that they’re dealing a future Zdeno Chara or Chris Pronger (despite the fact that the only thing Key has in common with those guys is being tall), which is operating on the fear of an incredibly rare edge case happening. All while ignoring that the possibility of the edge case happening in reverse (e.g., if Zegras was the hypotehtical return and Zegras turns into Pettersson).

[RangersIn7]

16 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Nobody is suggesting moving Miller for less talent than he represents.  The argument for moving him is to change the Ranger's overall balance and make the team more ready to compete at a high level in the playoffs.

 

If we can get a youngish C or RW who is ready to play now it is probably worth giving up Miller to make that transition.

If you find a deal that achieves that, fine.

 

But you don’t find it at the deadline.

 

Do it in the summer.

 
It’s beyond a waste of time to talk about it now.

 

Its like if you owned a car that needed brakes, and an alignment in the worst way, but you took it in to get painted first.

 

Why???

[RangersIn7]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Folks are worried too much that they’re dealing a future Zdeno Chara or Chris Pronger (despite the fact that the only thing Key has in common with those guys is being tall), which is operating on the fear of an incredibly rare edge case happening. All while ignoring that the possibility of the edge case happening in reverse (e.g., if Zegras was the hypotehtical return and Zegras turns into Pettersson).

I don’t think he’s that.

 

Those 2 are literally 2 of the 10 best defensemen I’ve ever seen.

 

And I haven’t said that.

Not once.

 

If in the summer, you can trade him for Zegras, and you have a legitimate and viable replacement for him that can immediately slot into you top-4 and play those minutes, I’m all in on that.

 

Thats a hockey trade.

Not a “this guy sucks at hockey” trade

[RangersIn7]

You don’t need him to develop into a HOF level D to get a good player.

 

Too many people are ignoring the reality of true development times based on I don’t know what. 
 

It’s just take fucking time. 
 

Not just in terms of age. Or games played. Or minutes. Or opportunity.

There’s lots of factors. 
 

 

I’ll tell you… I’m a chef and have to develop young chefs all the time.

Talented kids. Well educated at good culinary schools. Decent experience at good restaurants. 
 

And it takes at least 5 years till you’ve actually got someone that can really do it all to the best of their ability. They can amaze you one day. Then the next, they make a major mistake that costs you serious money. 
Be patient with kids.

 
Nowadays, kids mature slower.

It’s not like it was for us in the 70’s and 80’s.

They don’t get that heavy handed development anymore.

You can’t be stiff with them.

Certain tactics which were previously used and effective, they don’t fly anymore.

 

Different game. Different time.

 
You talk about these ultra physical guys. They don’t exist anymore.

 

Derian Hatcher was a monster. 

Top-10 pick in his drag class.
Captained a SC Champ.

Played tons of minutes every night vs top players.

 

If he played today… he’d be on a bottom-pairing. 

 

Those guys are gone.

[Br4d]

59 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

If you find a deal that achieves that, fine.

 

But you don’t find it at the deadline.

 

Do it in the summer.

 
It’s beyond a waste of time to talk about it now.

 

Its like if you owned a car that needed brakes, and an alignment in the worst way, but you took it in to get painted first.

 

Why???

 

Because the Ranger's forward group as currently constituted is unlikely to go far in the playoffs.  It's completely dependent on 3 people in Kreider, Zibanejad and Panarin and all 3 of those guys have disappeared at times.

[SaveByRichter35]

Being a cancer aside, we didn't need TDA's offensive abilities with lack of defense because we had Fox but we need to see where Miller's offensive abilities with lack of defense goes because....it might come along some day?

Edited February 18 by SaveByRichter35

[delneggs]

If Drury were to make it known around the league that he was willing to move Miller, he would get a call from EVERY GM in the league and there would be a bidding war for the kid.  Trading him is a fools errand.  

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

 

Because the Ranger's forward group as currently constituted is unlikely to go far in the playoffs.  It's completely dependent on 3 people in Kreider, Zibanejad and Panarin and all 3 of those guys have disappeared at times.

You guys keep making the argument that they “Can not go far in the playoffs.”

 

Except they already have.

 

The fact that you miss or ignore this thusly invalidates your argument.

 

Which is why I can’t take you seriously.

 

So many teams lose before they ultimately win.

 

What are you watching?

You don’t see it?

 

They’ve done it.

They’ve been close.

 

And they’ve continued to win at a high rate.

 

So they remain so.

 

Are you missing this???

 

It doesn’t mean they will.

But they can.

 

And there’s no dynastic or amazing team to contend with either.

 

They have as good a chance as any.

 

 

The Stanley Cup is called the hardest trophy to win in all of sports… for a reason.

 

Because it is.

 

They have a fair chance.

With some good factors in their favor. 

[Keirik]

46 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

You guys keep making the argument that they “Can not go far in the playoffs.”

 

Except they already have.

 

The fact that you miss or ignore this thusly invalidates your argument.

 

Which is why I can’t take you seriously.

 

So many teams lose before they ultimately win.

 

What are you watching?

You don’t see it?

 

They’ve done it.

They’ve been close.

 

And they’ve continued to win at a high rate.

 

So they remain so.

 

Are you missing this???

 

It doesn’t mean they will.

But they can.

 

And there’s no dynastic or amazing team to contend with either.

 

They have as good a chance as any.

 

 

The Stanley Cup is called the hardest trophy to win in all of sports… for a reason.

 

Because it is.

 

They have a fair chance.

With some good factors in their favor. 

I think that's a pretty rough take. I don't see any false argument from either side. I do however see your argument ignoring how big of a role both Copp and Vatrano played in the one playoff our top core went far in. Vatrano had 13 points in that 20 game playoff year and Copp had 14. It wasn't just Mika, Kreid, amd Bread. Kreider and Panarin only had 16 points each.  They had help. 
 

  There really isn't anything invalid about having doubts about this roster right now come playoff time.