jamsim1967 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 8 hours ago, Pete said: Getting players to play a certain way isn't a coaching issue? Sure it is. Look, if you even listened to anything about Gallant's behavior with the Rangers, it's easy to see he isn't an NHL coach. 4 coaches replaced in-season and he wasn't even interviewed. Nuff said. Lavvy had buy in. They were winning. Big complaint was they hadn't scored enough 5v5. When they tried to, they didn't defend well enough 5v5. They had injuries. They are playing with 2 lines, a 4th line, and an AHL first line. They have 40 games to figure it out. Most people figured they'd have a lull to start the season while they adjusted. They didn't. They're having it now. The good news is, they banked points. But, people still going to act like the sky is falling. It isn't. People here talking about blowing up a team this season that's currently in 1st place in their division. Get a grip, people, there's plenty of time. When the players simply choose to not play in a certain way (way to often), skating hard, hitting, going to the net, you know hockey, when is it on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 The way the Rangers roster is structured the players have more pull than the coach. That's because the coach cannot sit some of them when they really ought to be sat down for a game to think about how you play effective hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 It’s the roster, it’s always been the roster 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 8 hours ago, jamsim1967 said: When the players simply choose to not play in a certain way (way to often), skating hard, hitting, going to the net, you know hockey, when is it on them? So out of the things you mentioned, can you go back and pull the post game pressers where Laviolette said they don't skate hard enough or a hit enough? Could have possibly be that the things you think they're doing wrong, aren't actually the things they're doing wrong? Or that the things you think they're doing wrong aren't actually what the coach thinks they're doing wrong? So before anyone says they don't listen to the coach, you better be really specific on what you think the coach is saying that they're not doing. I've heard the coach say one thing that has not been reflected in the teams play consistently, and that is getting pucks to the net. That is the biggest problem. They pass up prime scoring opportunities and leave goals on the board. Whatever other fictitious issues live in the minds of fans are their own issues, not the teams issues. Edited January 24 by Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 49 minutes ago, Pete said: So out of the things you mentioned, can you go back and pull the post game pressers where Laviolette said they don't skate hard enough or a hit enough? Could have possibly be that the things you think they're doing wrong, aren't actually the things they're doing wrong? Or that the things you think they're doing wrong aren't actually what the coach thinks they're doing wrong? So before anyone says they don't listen to the coach, you better be really specific on what you think the coach is saying that they're not doing. I've heard the coach say one thing that has not been reflected in the teams play consistently, and that is getting pucks to the net. That is the biggest problem. They pass up prime scoring opportunities and leave goals on the board. Whatever other fictitious issues live in the minds of fans are their own issues, not the teams issues. While I’m not disagreeing, one thing I will say is that I’ve heard him say it a few times (including postgame last night) was that they we’re moving too much East-West instead of pushing the puck up ice. It was bad habit of theirs the last few years where they tried to be too cute with the cross ice shit, specifically in the offensive zone, and I loved seeing them at the beginning of the year pushing the puck more up ice and pursuing it and getting a good forecheck going. Lately, maybe out of bad habit, the cross ice shit is seeping back in, and I have heard him bring it up a few times and has been noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletch Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 13 hours ago, Pete said: You guys are a prototypical case of recency bias. They were fine for the first quarter of the season with the 1-3-1, and the defensive play, especially in their own zone. You can argue it's not the coach, but you'd be wrong. They already showed that coaching can make a difference. They reverted to old habits. It's up to the coach to get them back on track. I don't know how you can accuse others of 'recency bias' when your are choosing to bias your analysis by weighing the first 20 games more than the last 20 games. Pot calling the kettle black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, fletch said: I don't know how you can accuse others of 'recency bias' when your are choosing to bias your analysis by weighing the first 20 games more than the last 20 games. Pot calling the kettle black. I evaluate the full body of work. We have a bunch of people saying the team isn't good, well it was good for the first 20 plus games wasn't it? Do those games not count? They're going through a bad stretch, it happens. Same thing is happening in LA. Same thing is happening in Vegas. Look around the league. Carolina started off in a slump, now they're hot. Does that mean they sucked and are just getting lucky now? Because that's what Rangers fans would say. They were lucky in the beginning of the year, this is who they are! You're never as good as you look when you're winning or as bad as you look when you're losing. Could the roster be seriously flawed? Maybe. But it's still up to the coach to fix things like "too much east west". If you can't get a certain player to play a certain way, then it's time to change the dynamic for that player. Separate Mika and Kreids. The solution is literally staring you in the face. It's the only thing that hasn't been done this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, RichieNextel305 said: While I’m not disagreeing, one thing I will say is that I’ve heard him say it a few times (including postgame last night) was that they we’re moving too much East-West instead of pushing the puck up ice. It was bad habit of theirs the last few years where they tried to be too cute with the cross ice shit, specifically in the offensive zone, and I loved seeing them at the beginning of the year pushing the puck more up ice and pursuing it and getting a good forecheck going. Lately, maybe out of bad habit, the cross ice shit is seeping back in, and I have heard him bring it up a few times and has been noticeable. I agree. I think it's all bucketed in the same mentality, they want too many pretty plays. Not enough greasy goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I feel like wanting the pretty play instead of the greasy goal has been the Rangers' mindset since about 19-forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletch Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Pete said: I evaluate the full body of work. We have a bunch of people saying the team isn't good, well it was good for the first 20 plus games wasn't it? Do those games not count? They're going through a bad stretch, it happens. Same thing is happening in LA. Same thing is happening in Vegas. Look around the league. Carolina started off in a slump, now they're hot. Does that mean they sucked and are just getting lucky now? Because that's what Rangers fans would say. They were lucky in the beginning of the year, this is who they are! You're never as good as you look when you're winning or as bad as you look when you're losing. Could the roster be seriously flawed? Maybe. But it's still up to the coach to fix things like "too much east west". If you can't get a certain player to play a certain way, then it's time to change the dynamic for that player. Separate Mika and Kreids. The solution is literally staring you in the face. It's the only thing that hasn't been done this season. We all have our biases. You are correct that the recent bad stretch may be an aberration, that the Rangers may correct course, and be a solid contender. The contrary argument is that the start to the season may have been the aberration as many teams get a short-term bump from working for a new coach, and we're starting to see a regression to what the Rangers will be in April. Weaknesses in a player's game don't disappear overnight. Players have been playing hockey since they were just starting to walk (in some cases) and vary in how quickly they adopt and how receptive they are to a different system. My main concern is that under the Laviolette regime I am seeing issues that I saw under previous coaches. The counter is that Laviolette hasn't had enough time to change the organizational culture. The counter-counter is that the organization has tended to blame the coach rather than the players for on ice results by the number of coaches that have been fired and the apparent lack of consequences for poor play (healthy scratches, reduced TOI) - see Tortorella, Tocchet with Kuzmenko, lots of examples around the league. Sometimes our younger players get less TOI or get dropped to a lower line - but I don't see vets like Kreider or Zib get dropped to the third or fourth line or benched for a third period. Playing time is one of the few currencies players understand and which doesn't seem to be used on veteran Rangers. The narrative on this season shouldn't be written until after the playoffs, which is a LONG wait. Edited January 24 by fletch 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Pete said: So out of the things you mentioned, can you go back and pull the post game pressers where Laviolette said they don't skate hard enough or a hit enough? Could have possibly be that the things you think they're doing wrong, aren't actually the things they're doing wrong? Or that the things you think they're doing wrong aren't actually what the coach thinks they're doing wrong? So before anyone says they don't listen to the coach, you better be really specific on what you think the coach is saying that they're not doing. I've heard the coach say one thing that has not been reflected in the teams play consistently, and that is getting pucks to the net. That is the biggest problem. They pass up prime scoring opportunities and leave goals on the board. Whatever other fictitious issues live in the minds of fans are their own issues, not the teams issues. Guy stresses NORTH every single post game. We aren't seeing North. We are seeing east/west ,non skating, staying on the perimeter, typical Rangers of the last 3+ years of hockey from a certain bunch. The others seem to play North and succeed. The Panarin line plays the most North of the bunch. The 3rd line was doing it for a handful of games (Cuylle/Wheeler/Brodzinski). Zibanejad line is just soft and non committed to playing a North game. The few times they do, it is successful. But they would rather play hot potato with the puck and defer an obviously good shooting lane. Their theory is -why use your skill on an open shot at the goalie, when you can unsuccessfully try to thread a pass through a defenders skates for an awful low percentage shot- and instantly evacuate the zone or just get caught behind the play because you're shaking your head in disbelief that your stupid choice didn't connect. Some complaints I have of Laviolette are that he gets away from what has been working, when they are behind. He shortens his bench and kinda screws himself late because the top 6 becomes a mishmosh of jumbled lines, then he is forced to throw his 4th line out there late, because everyone else is gassed and approaching 23+ minutes of icetime. I don't want to see Bonino and Goodrow on the ice around the 2 minute mark, down a goal. Also. The 1:20 -30 long shifts for PP1, just have to stop. PP2 has been getting good looks lately and that's still with their 30 seconds of time, starting in their own end. Get them out there more. Use that different look. It's also time to switch the D pairs. This is something he has said would eventually happen. It hasn't yet and they all look a bit flat. Although Fox has definitely been a lot more involved offensively, and down low the last 5+ games. He IS shooting more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 12 minutes ago, fletch said: We all have our biases. You are correct that the recent bad stretch may be an aberration, that the Rangers may correct course, and be a solid contender. The contrary argument is that the start to the season may have been the aberration as many teams get a short-term bump from working for a new coach, and we're starting to see a regression to what the Rangers will be in April. Weaknesses in a player's game don't disappear overnight. Players have been playing hockey since they were just starting to walk (in some cases) and vary in how quickly they adopt and how receptive they are to a different system. My main concern is that under the Laviolette regime I am seeing issues that I saw under previous coaches. The counter is that Laviolette hasn't had enough time to change the organizational culture. The counter-counter is that the organization has tended to blame the coach rather than the players for on ice results by the number of coaches that have been fired and the apparent lack of consequences for poor play (healthy scratches, reduced TOI) - see Tortorella, Tocchet with Kuzmenko, lots of examples around the league. Sometimes our younger players get less TOI or get dropped to a lower line - but I don't see vets like Kreider or Zib get dropped to the third or fourth line or benched for a third period. Playing time is one of the few currencies players understand and which doesn't seem to be used on veteran Rangers. The narrative on this season shouldn't be written until after the playoffs, which is a LONG wait. Yeah, I get it. I think there are also too many absolutes being thrown around. Is it all on the coach all the time? No. Is it all on the players all the time? No. That doesn't change the fact that Gallant had to go. That doesn't change the fact that there were about 10 coaching vacancies between when he got fired and today, and he didn't interview for any of them. So, yeah I put a lot of last season on the coach, especially the playoff performance. And then when you hear about the dynamic of the team when he was there, he had to go. There should be no debate about that. Now we have a much more professional and detail-oriented staff in place. If they can't write the ship in the 40 games that are left plus playoffs, then yeah the roster needs to be looked at. But there are 40 games plus playoffs to go, to your point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty9 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 He shortens the bench cause our third and fourth line are terrible He has no confidence in them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 30 minutes ago, Pete said: Separate Mika and Kreids. The solution is literally staring you in the face. It's the only thing that hasn't been done this season. This. I do worry that Laviolette doesn't want to disturb that relationship and be a hard ass. That used to be his thing (prior to Rangers and even Washington). Until people complained that that was his thing. I think he's kinda unsuccessfully trying to adapt his style of coaching, to today's NHL players, that seem to be very temperamental about how they are treated and spoken to. This bunch has gotten 2 coaches fired. He has to walk on eggshells and that doesn't work for him. I personally think and am speculating about this. It is an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 minutes ago, The Dude said: This bunch has gotten 2 coaches fired. He has to walk on eggshells and that doesn't work for him. I personally think and am speculating about this. It is an opinion. Not buying this narrative one bit. GG got himself fired. Quinn got fired because Dolan had a temper tantrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 6 minutes ago, lefty9 said: He shortens the bench cause our third and fourth line are terrible He has no confidence in them The sad thing is that this team looked it’s best when our 4th line was an asset. Back in November when you had Vesey and Pitlick flanking either Goodrow or Bonino, I don’t remember which one. They we’re able to get the puck in, be hard on the forecheck, generate chances, cycle well and even cash in goals. It was a tone-setting, physical line. But it’s lost it’s luster. And maybe it’s just me, but I feel like it lost it’s luster around the time Pitlick went down. I wouldn’t hate seeing him back in the lineup. An issue we have is that ideally, Vesey-Bonino-Pitlick should be a respectable enough 4th line that could defend, win faceoffs and do all the things I said earlier in this post. And that would be fine because if Goodrow were playing better, he could be a good fill-in on the 3rd line. But with him not playing well enough to warrant a role even on the 3rd line, we’re stuck playing a plug like Brodzinski who has overstayed his time up here, and we have a revolving door of 4 players for the 4th line. Edited January 24 by RichieNextel305 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 5 minutes ago, fletch said: We all have our biases. You are correct that the recent bad stretch may be an aberration, that the Rangers may correct course, and be a solid contender. The contrary argument is that the start to the season may have been the aberration as many teams get a short-term bump from working for a new coach, and we're starting to see a regression to what the Rangers will be in April. Weaknesses in a player's game don't disappear overnight. Players have been playing hockey since they were just starting to walk (in some cases) and vary in how quickly they adopt and how receptive they are to a different system. My main concern is that under the Laviolette regime I am seeing issues that I saw under previous coaches. The counter is that Laviolette hasn't had enough time to change the organizational culture. The counter-counter is that the organization has tended to blame the coach rather than the players for on ice results by the number of coaches that have been fired and the apparent lack of consequences for poor play (healthy scratches, reduced TOI) - see Tortorella, Tocchet with Kuzmenko, lots of examples around the league. Sometimes our younger players get less TOI or get dropped to a lower line - but I don't see vets like Kreider or Zib get dropped to the third or fourth line or benched for a third period. Playing time is one of the few currencies players understand and which doesn't seem to be used on veteran Rangers. The narrative on this season shouldn't be written until after the playoffs, which is a LONG wait. With younger players that is all you can do, but with the vets, you can also start taking the fun time away to send a message. That's PP time. Zibanejad should be removed from PP1 immediately. Do I expect it to make PP1 better? Absolutely not, but it might make him more focused and concentrated on what he should be doing at 5v5. I wouldn't expect it to be long term. Maybe a few games. PP1 was horrendous last night, and it was evident to me after that 2nd period PP that Lavi should make a change or go PP2 first the rest of the night to send a message. Since Jan 1, in 12 games, the Rangers PP is at 19.4% and 20th in the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamsim1967 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Pete said: So out of the things you mentioned, can you go back and pull the post game pressers where Laviolette said they don't skate hard enough or a hit enough? Could have possibly be that the things you think they're doing wrong, aren't actually the things they're doing wrong? Or that the things you think they're doing wrong aren't actually what the coach thinks they're doing wrong? So before anyone says they don't listen to the coach, you better be really specific on what you think the coach is saying that they're not doing. I've heard the coach say one thing that has not been reflected in the teams play consistently, and that is getting pucks to the net. That is the biggest problem. They pass up prime scoring opportunities and leave goals on the board. Whatever other fictitious issues live in the minds of fans are their own issues, not the teams issues. As fans, we don't know what Laviolette is, or isn't saying behind closed doors (same with Gallant). All we can go on is the effort on the ice, and it hasn't been there. And again as fans, we've seen it far to often. If Laviolette came out and said the things I said earlier in front of a mic, he risks losing the team, and everything could go south in a hurry. I'm sure he knows that. He's a veteran coach, who has probably gone through stretches like this at least once in his career (I'm sure more), and is probably the right guy at the right moment. He doesn't seem to be the type who will overreact. I'm sure he has conversations with Drury (or should), and hopefully they can make all the right moves to get this team straightened out. Banking points early is great, and I'm glad they got those points. However, does anybody here really believe that this current roster is built for the grind of the playoffs? As much as I hate the word Grit, that's exactly what they need more of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 3 minutes ago, jamsim1967 said: As fans, we don't know what Laviolette is, or isn't saying behind closed doors (same with Gallant). All we can go on is the effort on the ice, and it hasn't been there. And again as fans, we've seen it far to often. If Laviolette came out and said the things I said earlier in front of a mic, he risks losing the team, and everything could go south in a hurry. I'm sure he knows that. He's a veteran coach, who has probably gone through stretches like this at least once in his career (I'm sure more), and is probably the right guy at the right moment. He doesn't seem to be the type who will overreact. I'm sure he has conversations with Drury (or should), and hopefully they can make all the right moves to get this team straightened out. Banking points early is great, and I'm glad they got those points. However, does anybody here really believe that this current roster is built for the grind of the playoffs? As much as I hate the word Grit, that's exactly what they need more of. Do I think the current roster is built for the playoffs? Well, no they don't have a third line center. They also don't have a top six right wing. But this isn't going to be the roster that enters the playoffs. Again, there's a lot of judging the team when they are playing their worst hockey. As far as a body of work goes, we could very well end the season with this being their worst stretch of 20 games where they were basically .500... But yeah everything sucks and the world is burning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Heaven Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I fully expect some sort of move in the next 2-3 weeks. 8 days off starting on Sunday, where they (Drury, coaches, scouting staff) should have some pow wows on what the plan is for trade targets, and moving forward towards the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Same, but I'll remind everyone that if Chytil is coming back (as seems likely), they have next to no room to do much of anything without subtracting from the roster in the process. Like, they can probably pick up a guy like Aube-Kubel or Brandon Duhaime for relatively cheap, but they can't make any kind of significant move because they have no room to. Vince went into detail about this repeatedly the last month or so and basically outlined that in the best case scenario, they'll have approximately $1.5 million at the deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Laviolette is a very smart guy. He wasn't exuberant when we were dominating and he's not morose now. He has said all along that we'd need to make adjustments down the road. Now the question is what are the adjustments and when is he going to make them? Really good coaches find the right springboard to make their dive from. They don't adjust off of failure but when a team has a moment of counter-tempo going. Hopefully he'll find the right moment and suddenly Cuylle will be on Zibanejad's left with Kakko or Wheeler on the right. Also, something has to be done about Laf's lack of confidence at the moment. He looked miserable last night after missing a gimme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 17 minutes ago, Phil said: Same, but I'll remind everyone that if Chytil is coming back (as seems likely), they have next to no room to do much of anything without subtracting from the roster in the process. Like, they can probably pick up a guy like Aube-Kubel or Brandon Duhaime for relatively cheap, but they can't make any kind of significant move because they have no room to. Vince went into detail about this repeatedly the last month or so and basically outlined that in the best case scenario, they'll have approximately $1.5 million at the deadline. And not many places to trim cap. Miller (3.8M) Kakko (2.1 M) Schneider (925k) Lindgren ($3M) Lafreniere (2.3M) Goodrow ($3.6M) Shesterkin (5.6M, but unrealistic....right?) The hail mary prayer would be that Goodrow is tradable or can be included in a bigger package where you overload assets on our side to bring back a good player. Goodrow/1st/Kakko for Buchnevich. Cap hits wash. I know Drury is going to go for it because that's the lane he picked with his offseason moves, and frankly that's what he should do because he needs to do something to validate his decisions. My personal feeling is we aren't that close. Just don't do anything and see where it goes. Re-configure in the summer. Basically what I said last summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 If we wait until the summer it's 90% Kreider on the move. He has to give his list in July. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 19 minutes ago, Br4d said: If we wait until the summer it's 90% Kreider on the move. He has to give his list in July. As it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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