Mercogliano 8 Early Trade Deadline Targets for Rangers

[Albatrosss]

27 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kreider is 2nd on the team in 5v5 goals and 4th in 5v5 points. Any notion that the team would improve 5v5 by reducing his minutes, linemate quality, and role is not backed by data. He's a top 6 complimentary player, a very good one, and because of that he needs to be with line drivers/playmakers who get the most out of him. If that playmaker isn't at center, it needs to be on the right side. I don't see a non-Zib option at center (internal or rental) who can do that, and as has been established, Zib isn't doing it either with his season long rut.

 

I love the idea of Cuylle-Zibanejad-Kakko though. That's a really nice shutdown and forechecking line, but that's about all anyone should expect. They would likely struggle to generate too much offensively, but possession and defense should be very, very good and that's important especially if they are matched up against the other team's better players. I could be sold on Kreider-X-Lafreniere. I mentioned yesterday that Lafreniere is probably the next closest thing to a playmaking line driver they have after Panarin, and that might work if you get Henrique or Jenner and play them in the middle.

 

Panarin-Trocheck-Wheeler (Primary scoring)

Kreider-Henrique/Jenner-Lafreniere (Secondary scoring)

Cuylle-Zibanejad-Kakko (big time shutdown line)

Vesey-Goodrow-Brodzinski (would be one of the best 4th lines in the league IMO)

 

I think I could get behind this.

no way Ziby on a checking line.  I think they would demote CK before moving Zib to the 3rd line.  

If Brodz can play wing I wouldnt mind trying him with Panarin.  Brodz is a good shooter

[Pete]

43 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kreider is 2nd on the team in 5v5 goals and 4th in 5v5 points. Any notion that the team would improve 5v5 by reducing his minutes, linemate quality, and role is not backed by data. He's a top 6 complimentary player, a very good one, and because of that he needs to be with line drivers/playmakers who get the most out of him. If that playmaker isn't at center, it needs to be on the right side. I don't see a non-Zib option at center (internal or rental) who can do that, and as has been established, Zib isn't doing it either with his season long rut.

 

I love the idea of Cuylle-Zibanejad-Kakko though. That's a really nice shutdown and forechecking line, but that's about all anyone should expect. They would likely struggle to generate too much offensively, but possession and defense should be very, very good and that's important especially if they are matched up against the other team's better players. I could be sold on Kreider-X-Lafreniere. I mentioned yesterday that Lafreniere is probably the next closest thing to a playmaking line driver they have after Panarin, and that might work if you get Henrique or Jenner and play them in the middle.

 

Panarin-Trocheck-Wheeler (Primary scoring)

Kreider-Henrique/Jenner-Lafreniere (Secondary scoring)

Cuylle-Zibanejad-Kakko (big time shutdown line)

Vesey-Goodrow-Brodzinski (would be one of the best 4th lines in the league IMO)

 

I think I could get behind this.

You need to stop looking at 5v5 as the end all be all. it should be weighted accordingly, but you keep calling Zib a third line C, so show me how many 3rd line C's are P/G or even getting the PP time that Zib gets.

 

And frankly since they started slumping (Dec. 8), the entire top 6 is lumped together in ESP (not 5v5, ES).
https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.10&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Over the same time, the top line for a top team like Vancouver doesn't look much different:https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.20&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Boston: https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.6&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

They were losing because of defensive lapses and bad goaltending.

Edited February 8 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

23 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

no way Ziby on a checking line.  I think they would demote CK before moving Zib to the 3rd line.  

If Brodz can play wing I wouldnt mind trying him with Panarin.  Brodz is a good shooter

You might be right, but it wouldn’t make it right. Refer back to the first sentence. I get you hate Kreider, but the numbers do not lie.

[Albatrosss]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

You might be right, but it wouldn’t make it right. Refer back to the first sentence. I get you hate Kreider, but the numbers do not lie.

i hate him cause he's an asshole.  But like i mentioned before, it is surprising that he's almost a PPG player when he's pretty much dogging it on the ice

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

You need to stop looking at 5v5 as the end all be all. it should be weighted accordingly, but you keep calling Zib a third line C, so show me how many 3rd line C's are P/G or even getting the PP time that Zib gets.

 

And frankly since they started slumping (Dec. 8), the entire top 6 is lumped together in ESP (not 5v5, ES).
https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.10&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Over the same time, the top line for a top team like Vancouver doesn't look much different:https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.20&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Boston: https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=game&dateFrom=2023-12-08&dateTo=2024-02-08&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=franchise.6&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=50

 

They were losing because of defensive lapses and bad goaltending.

He’s been a 3rd line C at 5v5 and it’s been shown time and again. PP has nothing to do with it. Even strength includes 3v3 and 4v4. Zib got an EV point and a +1 on that 3v3 OT goal by Laffy that. That’s not indicative of something you can expect in the playoffs. 5v5 data is king.

[BrooksBurner]

12 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

i hate him cause he's an asshole.  But like i mentioned before, it is surprising that he's almost a PPG player when he's pretty much dogging it on the ice

You’ll hate him even more if you put him on the 3rd line, because his quality 5v5 production will go away. He’s got warts (not the kind you have), and that just creates more of them by removing his clearly positive 5v5 production. Everyone will also start to turn on Cuylle if he’s on Zibanejad’s line when the expectations for producing aren’t met, or they’ll make excuses about him being a rookie. I love Cuylle btw, but I think my expectations are commiserate with his experience and what he brings to the team at this juncture of his career. 3rd line role is a good spot for him.

Edited February 8 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

He’s been a 3rd line C at 5v5 and it’s been shown time and again. PP has nothing to do with it. Even strength includes 3v3 and 4v4. Zib got an EV point and a +1 on that 3v3 OT goal by Laffy that. That’s not indicative of something you can expect in the playoffs. 5v5 data is king.

It's not king, it needs to be weighted appropriately against the entire body of work. What about the rest of that data showing that for half the season the 5v5 numbers are on par with other top teams? 

 

I wonder how you can reconcile the narrative that Zib is a 3C at 5v5 and then in the next post say that Kreider's play would suffer if he played with Brodzinski, who you also said you're fine with as a 3C. That feels a like a bit of a contradiction.

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It's not king, it needs to be weighted appropriately against the entire body of work. What about the rest of that data showing that for half the season the 5v5 numbers are on par with other top teams? 

 

I wonder how you can reconcile the narrative that Zib is a 3C at 5v5 and then in the next post say that Kreider's play would suffer if he played with Brodzinski, who you also said you're fine with as a 3C. That feels a like a bit of a contradiction.

 

5v5 is king for determining 5v5 TOI, and TOI determines who your linemates should be. If someone performs at a 3C level at 5v5, but a 1C level on the PP, I don't really care what you want to call him or label him. I just want the ice time to be commiserate with what the player is. He can get 4 min of PP a game and nobody is going to complain because he's that guy. 5v5? Reduce the ice time, adjust role. I don't see why it's being interpreted as an edgy take. If he starts to play better at 5v5, then increase the time, but piling up points on the PP isn't justification for TOI at 5v5.

 

On the PP: play him with top players, because he's a top unit PP player

On the PK: play him with top PKers, because he's a top unit PKer

At 4v4: play him with top players, because he's a first line 4v4er

At 3v3: play him with top players, because he's a first line 3v3er

At 5v5: play him with 3rd line players, because he's a 3rd line 5v5er

 

He's a GOOD all around player, and he is involved in every facet of the game. He's just behind at 5v5. It is what it is.

 

You can do this exercise with everyone. Trocheck is a better 5v5 player. He's not as good on the PP. If they take him off the PP because maybe he's not as good as someone else on it, it doesn't mean he's not a top 5v5 player anymore. There's a reason Trocheck already gets more 5v5 time than Zibanejad, and there's a reason teams watch for Zibanejad on the PP but don't give a shit about Trocheck.

Edited February 8 by BrooksBurner

[Ozzy]

7 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

 

On the PP: play him with top players, because he's a top unit PP player

On the PK: play him with top PKers, because he's a top unit PKer

At 4v4: play him with top players, because he's a first line 4v4er

At 3v3: play him with top players, because he's a first line 3v3er

At 5v5: play him with 3rd line players, because he's a 3rd line 5v5er

 

 

 

This part is what I'm thinking in Kreider!  ...Not so much Zibby 

 

Good thing I don't coach!  LOL

[Pete]

19 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

5v5 is king for determining 5v5 TOI, and TOI determines who your linemates should be. If someone performs at a 3C level at 5v5, but a 1C level on the PP, I don't really care what you want to call him or label him. I just want the ice time to be commiserate with what the player is. He can get 4 min of PP a game and nobody is going to complain because he's that guy. 5v5? Reduce the ice time, adjust role. I don't see why it's being interpreted as an edgy take. If he starts to play better at 5v5, then increase the time, but piling up points on the PP isn't justification for TOI at 5v5.

 

On the PP: play him with top players, because he's a top unit PP player

On the PK: play him with top PKers, because he's a top unit PKer

At 4v4: play him with top players, because he's a first line 4v4er

At 3v3: play him with top players, because he's a first line 3v3er

At 5v5: play him with 3rd line players, because he's a 3rd line 5v5er

 

He's a GOOD all around player, and he is involved in every facet of the game. He's just behind at 5v5. It is what it is.

 

You can do this exercise with everyone. Trocheck is a better 5v5 player. He's not as good on the PP. If they take him off the PP because maybe he's not as good as someone else on it, it doesn't mean he's not a top 5v5 player anymore. There's a reason Trocheck already gets more 5v5 time than Zibanejad, and there's a reason teams watch for Zibanejad on the PP but don't give a shit about Trocheck.

I'm still confused because his five on five time is in line. Trocheck gets more, and he gets more than everybody else as he should. Are you suggesting Brodz and Goodrow should get more five on five time then Zib? 

 

I've also supplied the numbers for a bunch of top teams at even strength over the past couple of months. Zib's (and quite frankly both top lines for the Rangers) are in line with the top players on other teams.

 

So where is this narrative that he performs like a 3C coming from? 

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

 

This part is what I'm thinking in Kreider!  ...Not so much Zibby 

 

Good thing I don't coach!  LOL

Yeah, but what you’re thinking isn’t true 

[Ozzy]

20 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Yeah, but what you’re thinking isn’t true 

 

No really...I don't coach! 

[The Dude]

Would Florida trade Sam Bennet in any situation? I'm not really following them much this year. 

 

If the Rangers offered Miller and Goodrow ( or Kakko, but more would have to come back) for Bennet and Montour, would Florida even consider? 

 

Sam Bennet is exactly what the Rangers need. 

[Phil]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

Would Florida trade Sam Bennet in any situation? I'm not really following them much this year. 

 

If the Rangers offered Miller and Goodrow ( or Kakko, but more would have to come back) for Bennet and Montour, would Florida even consider? 

 

Sam Bennet is exactly what the Rangers need. 

 

Is this a serious question? This doesn't even go through in EANHL. It's a clear "our trash (except Miller) for your stars" deal.

[The Dude]

40 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Is this a serious question? This doesn't even go through in EANHL. It's a clear "our trash (except Miller) for your stars" deal.

Huh? Is Montour super special? I like his game but as a UFA after this year, he's probably not a must keep for Florida.  Is Bennett a star? Their stars are Barkov and Tkachuk, nsybe Reinhardt..

 

I'd think Miller is equal value for Bennet. So I'm suggesting Kakko for Montour is kinda a win for them. I said Goodrow,  as a guy to make up for the edge lost in them dealing Bennett. I guess the salary makes it more like our garbage... 

 

But Miller and Kakko for Bennett and Montour isn't garbage for stars. Unless you're more down on Miller than I am. 

Edited February 11 by The Dude
Ooooph. Didn't realize how good Montours stats are. Really really didn't think they were THAT good. Had no idea he had the season hevhad last year. Always saw him as a 30 point max guy

[The Dude]

 

Edited February 11 by The Dude

[Phil]

22 hours ago, The Dude said:

Huh? Is Montour super special? I like his game but as a UFA after this year, he's probably not a must keep for Florida.  Is Bennett a star? Their stars are Barkov and Tkachuk, nsybe Reinhardt..

 

I'd think Miller is equal value for Bennet. So I'm suggesting Kakko for Montour is kinda a win for them. I said Goodrow,  as a guy to make up for the edge lost in them dealing Bennett. I guess the salary makes it more like our garbage... 

 

But Miller and Kakko for Bennett and Montour isn't garbage for stars. Unless you're more down on Miller than I am. 

 

You're offering to take their productive and good middle-six center by giving them an overpaid, older, bad one with more years.

 

You're also trading for a RD (Montour) by trading an LD (Miller).

 

And Kakko is garbage. He has piss poor trade value. Injury or not, he has five goals in like 30-something games this year.

 

Miller and Kakko (and/or Goodrow) is one good and two pieces of hot garbage for an extremely valuable, playoff-performing, agitating center on a good deal with another year left and a 22-minute 30-point defender.

 

So, yes, it's our trash for your stars. This fails on merit, everywhere.

[The Dude]

13 hours ago, Phil said:

 

You're offering to take their productive and good middle-six center by giving them an overpaid, older, bad one with more years.

 

You're also trading for a RD (Montour) by trading an LD (Miller).

 

And Kakko is garbage. He has piss poor trade value. Injury or not, he has five goals in like 30-something games this year.

 

Miller and Kakko (and/or Goodrow) is one good and two pieces of hot garbage for an extremely valuable, playoff-performing, agitating center on a good deal with another year left and a 22-minute 30-point defender.

 

So, yes, it's our trash for your stars. This fails on merit, everywhere.

Again. I didn't realize Montour had a 70 point season last year. He's typically 30 max. 

 

But ok. Yeah. I'll take the L for it. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Again. I didn't realize Montour had a 70 point season last year. He's typically 30 max. 

 

But ok. Yeah. I'll take the L for it. 

 

 

 

Who cares if he did though? He's got 11 in 36 this year and he's 30 years old. It was clearly a career year ala Gus posting 60 for Chicago a few years ago. Miller is worth significantly more than Montour

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Again. I didn't realize Montour had a 70 point season last year. He's typically 30 max. 

 

But ok. Yeah. I'll take the L for it.

 

It's not just him, is my point. I get what you're after, but you tend to target players you like that you think work for the Rangers, but fail to adequately assess why that player would ever be traded in the first place.

 

Trades work two ways. This falls down because very little you're offering outside Miller, maybe, addresses a need for the Panthers.

[fletch]

On 2/8/2024 at 7:40 AM, RichieNextel305 said:

After what I watched last night, before figuring out the RW situation for that line, they need to figure out how to get the 2 guys already on that line to get going consistently. What’s been said about Zibanejad has been said. But man, what about Kreider? I was talking a little bit about it in the GDT last night with Pete, but can he be anymore of a passenger? Not just as far as driving play, but as far as simple things where it just seems like he is beyond blasé in almost every single facet of the game.

 

We have all seen those 2 play with more passion and more energy and more confidence. And I’m not saying that every single second is like a Game 7 across 82 games. But Kreider literally looked like he was treating last night like a free skate on an off-day in October. He really needs to screw his head on straight and get back into the thick of things here. We can all see Mika gripping the stick too hard. But Kreider needs to start treating these games like they’re something more than preseason games too if we have any hope of seeing that line wake up.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 7:58 AM, Pete said:

Agreed. Adding a right wing doesn't solve anything for those 2.

 

I'd certainly look at swapping centers on the 1st and 3rd line. Gotta get Zib and Kreider away from each other. Brodz scored last night because he actually shot the puck. I think you will see Zib shoot more if he's not always looking for Krieder.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 8:08 AM, RJWantsTheCup said:

I just don't see Lavi splitting the 2 of them up.  Zibanejad you can see is at least giving an effort.  Kreider looks like the only thing he's interested in is trying to deflect shots standing to the side of the goalie.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 8:15 AM, Pete said:

He's in love with himself a little too much these days.

 

I don't subscribe to any kind of "country club" and "entitled vets" narrative, but I'll continue to beat the drum around the idea that if you want to change the culture in that room, he'd be the first to go for me.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 8:40 AM, RJWantsTheCup said:

Kreider started the season ok, but his effort has disappeared.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 9:00 AM, Pete said:

Pretty good snapshot into who's coasting on that line.

 

https://edge.nhl.com/en/compare/skaters/20232024-regular-8475184-20232024-regular-8476459#:~:text=294-,Skating Speed,-23.02

The more direct response would be a healthy scratch for one or both (Kreider, Zib) or reduced TOI.  If you split them up you are potentially creating an issue with multiple lines at even strength regarding their effort rather than isolating the problems to a single line.  As specialists you can pair them on PK or include them on the same PP unit, or include them in the last minute of game in defensive zone with one goal lead, or as needed without them being on the same line for most of the game.

[4EverRangerFrank]

When was the last time a NYR coach sat a star or seriously reduced TOI as motivation? I'm not defending players, but it almost seems like an oxymoron. Or am I a moron?

 

*asking for myself*

Edited February 12 by 4EverRangerFrank

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, 4EverRangerFrank said:

When was the last time a NYR coach sat a star or seriously reduced TOI as motivation? I'm not defending players, but it almost seems like an oxymoron. Or am I a moron?

 

*asking for myself*

The better question might be who is the last NHL coach that actually does this? 

 

Because the list begins and ends with Tortorella. 

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, Phil said:

 

It's not just him, is my point. I get what you're after, but you tend to target players you like that you think work for the Rangers, but fail to adequately assess why that player would ever be traded in the first place.

 

Trades work two ways. This falls down because very little you're offering outside Miller, maybe, addresses a need for the Panthers.

OK. I get ya. I took the L. 

 

BUT. They could use an offensive D man that isn't breaking the bank and are looking for inexpensive wingers  with scoring potential. They're very deep at center. I agree that the pot would need to be sweetened. It's kinda why I asked for opinions. 

 

Minus the ridiculous addition of Montour. Does Miller, Kakko and a pick get the door open to talk about Bennett? I'm asking. 

 

 

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

OK. I get ya. I took the L. 

 

BUT. They could use an offensive D man that isn't breaking the bank and are looking for inexpensive wingers  with scoring potential. They're very deep at center. I agree that the pot would need to be sweetened. It's kinda why I asked for opinions. 

 

Minus the ridiculous addition of Montour. Does Miller, Kakko and a pick get the door open to talk about Bennett? I'm asking.

 

I don't think so, no, because they're not getting anything back to replace what they're losing in Bennett. Kakko is garbage and plays wing. If Chytil were healthy, I guess, maybe you could try to put him into this kind of deal, but he also plays nothing like Bennett does in the playoffs.

 

Frankly, I don't think they have any interest at all in moving on from him. Not even to get Miller.