The One Who Stayed Too Long

[MuddyInTheMiddle]

4 hours ago, Phil said:

The idea is to name players who were Rangers, who were held onto too long. This could simply be players the team opted to re-sign long-term and/or refused to trade, or players who probably should have left on their own accord, but for whatever reasons, didn't. In other words, if we had the ability to go back in time and change the decision, we would.

 

First name that springs to mind for me is Dan Girardi who was reportedly heavily sought-after by the Ducks prior to re-signing with the Rangers. The reported return/asking price was Sami Vatanen + one of Rickard Rackell, Pat Maroon, or Kyle Palmieri. Instead, the Rangers re-signed Girardi to a $5.5x6 extension.

Never heard that rumor, but I just vomitted thinking about the 6 years of buyout penalty on Girardi's contract. 

[LindG1000]

John Tortorella. 

 

Just remember that there was a time where we had Henrik, Rick Nash, Mats Zuccarello, Marian Gaborik, Ryan McDonagh, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, JT Miller, and Chris Kreider on the same team and he couldn't figure that out.

[Phil]

19 minutes ago, MuddyInTheMiddle said:

Never heard that rumor, but I just vomitted thinking about the 6 years of buyout penalty on Girardi's contract. 

 

https://nesn.com/2014/02/report-ducks-have-shown-serious-interest-in-acquiring-dan-girardi/

 

https://pucksofafeather.com/2014/01/09/anaheim-ducks-trade-dan-girardi/

[Drew a Penalty]

29 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

John Tortorella. 

 

Just remember that there was a time where we had Henrik, Rick Nash, Mats Zuccarello, Marian Gaborik, Ryan McDonagh, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, JT Miller, and Chris Kreider on the same team and he couldn't figure that out.

 

Gaborik and Zuccarello didn't overlap that year, Kreider was a rookie in the playoffs, and Miller was drafted in 2011 and not a regular until 2015. Torts lost the room, but that team suffered from a complete lack of depth, leading to the Gaborik trade.

[Pete]

3 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Meh, debatable. I remember him being out of gas and terrible in the playoffs against Pittsburgh, and the general feel was his time as a Ranger was coming to an end. And then when they re-signed him to that deal it was one of those “WHAT?!” type of moments. It didn’t make sense.

He was hurt wand unable to pivot to one side. Killed his career. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, LindG1000 said:

John Tortorella. 

 

Just remember that there was a time where we had Henrik, Rick Nash, Mats Zuccarello, Marian Gaborik, Ryan McDonagh, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, JT Miller, and Chris Kreider on the same team and he couldn't figure that out.

Some of these things are not like the others. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Dunny said:

It's not a joke. They've waited for almost 300(!) NHL games for him to show something, and now he's worth a 5th round draft pick, because Rangers.

 

 

The problem with your argument is that he actually did show something in those 300 games. 

 

There was reason to keep him. But there's probably not anymore. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

27 minutes ago, Pete said:

The problem with your argument is that he actually did show something in those 300 games. 

 

There was reason to keep him. But there's probably not anymore. 

Meh… if you can get him back healthy this year, you can probably keep him on the cheap for a year or two I do believe.

 

Listen… at this point it’s just the offense.

3 points in 20 games sucks. 
Demoted to 3rd line.
Total disappointment there to be sure.

But the rest of his game is good.

 

And we’ve seen him be effective before.

Hes coming off an 18 goal, 40 point season as a 21 year old. In 3rd line minutes and very limited PP time.

 

Obviously, if all you get out of him as a 2OVA is a 3rd line guy… well, frankly, that sucks.

 

But I still think he figures it out. 

[Pete]

Just now, RangersIn7 said:

Meh… if you can get him back healthy this year, you can probably keep him on the cheap for a year or two I do believe.

 

Listen… at this point it’s just the offense.

3 points in 20 games sucks. 
Demoted to 3rd line.
Total disappointment there to be sure.

But the rest of his game is good.

 

And we’ve seen him be effective before.

Hes coming off an 18 goal, 40 point season as a 21 year old. In 3rd line minutes and very limited PP time.

 

Obviously, if all you get out of him as a 2OVA is a 3rd line guy… well, frankly, that sucks.

 

But I still think he figures it out. 

Pretty much how I feel, agreed. 

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Meh… if you can get him back healthy this year, you can probably keep him on the cheap for a year or two I do believe.

 

Listen… at this point it’s just the offense.

3 points in 20 games sucks. 
Demoted to 3rd line.
Total disappointment there to be sure.

But the rest of his game is good.

 

And we’ve seen him be effective before.

Hes coming off an 18 goal, 40 point season as a 21 year old. In 3rd line minutes and very limited PP time.

 

Obviously, if all you get out of him as a 2OVA is a 3rd line guy… well, frankly, that sucks.

 

But I still think he figures it out. 

 

He requires a $2.4 million qualifying offer. If the Rangers don't offer it, he goes to UFA this summer.

 

It's highly-debatable if he's long for the organization. We're rapidly approaching shit or get off the pot territory, and he's going to miss significant time with this latest injury. I honestly won't blame the FO if they just pull the chute this summer.

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Meh… if you can get him back healthy this year, you can probably keep him on the cheap for a year or two I do believe.

 

Listen… at this point it’s just the offense.

3 points in 20 games sucks. 
Demoted to 3rd line.
Total disappointment there to be sure.

But the rest of his game is good.

 

And we’ve seen him be effective before.

Hes coming off an 18 goal, 40 point season as a 21 year old. In 3rd line minutes and very limited PP time.

 

Obviously, if all you get out of him as a 2OVA is a 3rd line guy… well, frankly, that sucks.

 

But I still think he figures it out. 

 

I'm with you, right up until "I still think he figures it out."

[Sharpshooter]

Kaapo Kakko DONE in New York.

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I'm with you, right up until "I still think he figures it out."

Why???

 

Again… 18 goals and 40 points last season.

3rd line minutes 

No PP time.

 

And we agree on the rest of his game.

 

Plus I’ll add… yeah he got bumped to 3rd line after slow start.

But don’t overlook the fact that Zib and CK were garbage early and that whole line was not productive at ES.

Kakko just took the bullet… cause he doesn’t have the resume of the other two.

 

 

[RangersIn7]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

He requires a $2.4 million qualifying offer. If the Rangers don't offer it, he goes to UFA this summer.

 

It's highly-debatable if he's long for the organization. We're rapidly approaching shit or get off the pot territory, and he's going to miss significant time with this latest injury. I honestly won't blame the FO if they just pull the chute this summer.

If they move on from him, it would not be a shock to me.

 

But you can keep him for not much. And you aren’t getting much in trade most likely.

So run it back

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Why???

 

Again… 18 goals and 40 points last season.

3rd line minutes 

No PP time.

 

And we agree on the rest of his game.

 

Plus I’ll add… yeah he got bumped to 3rd line after slow start.

But don’t overlook the fact that Zib and CK were garbage early and that whole line was not productive at ES.

Kakko just took the bullet… cause he doesn’t have the resume of the other two.

 

Zib and CK were trash, and that line with Kakko had a relatively high expected goals, which is encouraging, but the reason why is simple. We're 300 games in. He's scored 40 points exactly once and has exactly one highlight reel goal to speak of. There's scant evidence to buy the premise that waiting even longer will magically produce results that have never manifested.

 

Just now, RangersIn7 said:

If they move on from him, it would not be a shock to me.

 

But you can keep him for not much. And you aren’t getting much in trade most likely.

So run it back

 

I mean, probably. Maybe. I just don't think he's a hang up scenario if someone asks.

[RangersIn7]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Zib and CK were trash, and that line with Kakko had a relatively high expected goals, which is encouraging, but the reason why is simple. We're 300 games in. He's scored 40 points exactly once and has exactly one highlight reel goal to speak of. There's scant evidence to buy the premise that waiting even longer will magically produce results that have never manifested.

 

 

I mean, probably. Maybe. I just don't think he's a hang up scenario if someone asks.

And I get that… totally.

But what we forget is that expectations and timeframes are arbitrary and no player is beholden to them. Things happen when they happen.

 

People were shitting down LaFreniere’s throat constantly over the previous 18 months.

Yet here we are.

 

I don’t he’s a hang up scenario either.

And if they move him, I understand.

 

But it’s far from a forgone conclusion.

 

[Phil]

13 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

And I get that… totally.

But what we forget is that expectations and timeframes are arbitrary and no player is beholden to them. Things happen when they happen.

 

People were shitting down LaFreniere’s throat constantly over the previous 18 months.

Yet here we are.

 

I don’t he’s a hang up scenario either.

And if they move him, I understand.

 

But it’s far from a forgone conclusion.

 

 

They're not arbitrary. They're beholden to pay and aspects of the free agent process like arbitration. So long as the player remains relatively cost-controlled and team-controlled, it's a non-issue, but the closer we get to UFA, and the more likely arbitration hearings are likely, the less and less confident you should be in that player remaining with your organization.

 

Do you think the Blues regret dealing away Robby Fabbri? Similar issues insofar as first-round pick, a lack of breakout offense, and a slew of major injuries that continually derailed his progress.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

They're not arbitrary. They're beholden to pay and aspects of the free agent process like arbitration. So long as the player remains relatively cost-controlled and team-controlled, it's a non-issue, but the closer we get to UFA, and the more likely arbitration hearings are likely, the less and less confident you should be in that player remaining with your organization.

 

Do you think the Blues regret dealing away Robby Fabbri? Similar issues insofar as first-round pick, a lack of breakout offense, and a slew of major injuries that continually derailed his progress.

What do you think he's getting in arbitration that it scares you so much? I welcome arbitration for him. 

[Phil]

Just now, Pete said:

What do you think he's getting in arbitration that it scares you so much? I welcome arbitration for him. 

 

Not the award, the process. It destroys relationships.

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Not the award, the process. It destroys relationships.

With a player who you couldn't care less about, so again I ask you why do you care?

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pete

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

With a player who you couldn't care less about, so again I ask you why do you care?

 

I don't. I'm just explaining why I have no faith in this player (or the process we're probably looking at to keep him around).

 

I'd be looking to move him to a team like Carolina, who love these types of projects. Bring me Jack Drury.

[RangersIn7]

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

They're not arbitrary. They're beholden to pay and aspects of the free agent process like arbitration. So long as the player remains relatively cost-controlled and team-controlled, it's a non-issue, but the closer we get to UFA, and the more likely arbitration hearings are likely, the less and less confident you should be in that player remaining with your organization.

 

Do you think the Blues regret dealing away Robby Fabbri? Similar issues insofar as first-round pick, a lack of breakout offense, and a slew of major injuries that continually derailed his progress.

They’re arbitrary based on development time and players get there when they get there.

 

I agree with your point about guys going to arb, and pricing themselves out. 
I don’t think we are there yet with him.

 

Plus, lack of offensive production notwithstanding, the organization seems to really like him and his effort and attitude and all of that. 
 

I think there’s a deal that can keep him around for another year or two.

 

 

[Phil]

Just now, RangersIn7 said:

They’re arbitrary based on development time and players get there when they get there.

 

I agree with your point about guys going to arb, and pricing themselves out. 
I don’t think we are there yet with him.

 

Plus, lack of offensive production notwithstanding, the organization seems to really like him and his effort and attitude and all of that. 
 

I think there’s a deal that can keep him around for another year or two.

 

It's not the pricing I'd be worried about in arb. It's the relationship-destroying negotiation process. I just don't think it's a sign of health if you're taking your second overall pick to arbitration. It's a sign that it's time to move on.

[jamsim1967]

Kappo Kakko is a 22 years old, with talent. Just like I felt it was much to soon to get rid of Lafreniere, I feel the same way about Kakko. I hate the idea of somebody this young going to another team, where they finally figure it out.

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

John Tortorella. 

 

Just remember that there was a time where we had Henrik, Rick Nash, Mats Zuccarello, Marian Gaborik, Ryan McDonagh, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, JT Miller, and Chris Kreider on the same team and he couldn't figure that out.

Jerked around Zucc quite disgracefully to the point he had gone back to Europe for a time and was then re-signed as a free agent. From the day he first got here, his offensive talent was obvious . Often looked like Tortarella simply wasn't gonna play a guy that small because he viewed him as a defensive liability and nothing more than a PP guy. Tortarella is a good coach; he has a Cup to his name. But he's got a blind spot about offensive talent.