The Struggle Continues with Kaapo Kakko

[Pete]

23 minutes ago, Br4d said:

To switch it up on you: let's be brutally honest.  The only reason Kakko has come further is because he was so terrible his first 100 odd-games.

So what? He's still made more progress compared to Laf, who hasn't made much.

 

Quote

 

He's been in the NHL a year longer than Laffy and I'd definitely take Laffy over him right now given what we see on the ice.  Not saying that Laffy is good but Kakko is still a flat player who only seems really comfortable with the puck on his stick and even then rarely turns that into anything other than 20-30 seconds of game time passing with no effect.

That's certainly your POV, not sure how many people agree with it. I certainly don't.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

So what? He's still made more progress compared to Laf, who hasn't made much.

 

That's certainly your POV, not sure how many people agree with it. I certainly don't.

 

Pete, Kakko is a year older than Laffy and has a year more experience and he is no closer to breaking through than Laffy is.

 

That just is what it is and if you can't see it that's your vision not reality.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Pete, Kakko is a year older than Laffy and has a year more experience and he is no closer to breaking through than Laffy is.

 

That just is what it is and if you can't see it that's your vision not reality.

Kakko has played 24 more NHL games than Lafreniere. Your POV that Kakko is no closer to breaking out than Lafreniere is just biased and there's really no other way around it.

 

Multiple local and Canadian-based podcasts have specifically referenced Lafreniere's struggles and how bad he's been. Elliott, Marek, Brooks, Vince, the Athletic have all covered this being a make or break year for Lafreniere and Brooks called his training camp the worst 2 weeks of Laf's career. Those same outlets have all said Kakko is ready to take the next step.

 

Please tell me more about "reality".

Edited October 18, 2023 by Pete

[Jdog99]

maybe he'll just play himself into another very affordable contract for a solid enough mid-tier player...

 

while Cuyle and Othman quickly rise up the ranks to hold the mantle of the future - while still on cheap deals themselves for a few years.

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

So what? He's still made more progress compared to Laf, who hasn't made much.

The end result trumps all. Year 3 Lafreniere matched year 4 Kakko. We’ll see this year, but it looks pretty even again so far. Lafreniere didn’t have to progress as much to match Kakko even though he’s a year behind.

 

Kakko’s rate of progression has been higher because he set the bar so brutally low, but it’s unsustainable and doesn’t predict where he goes from here. He’s no better than Lafreniere.

[The Dude]

Deleted, double post

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by The Dude

[The Dude]

Just so you all know, I'm not totally shitting on Kakko. I really like where he's at. I think there's a lot more in there with him.

 

Phil also reworded the title, so it might come off as more of a complaint. My title was more in jest and sarcastic. 

 

So, if you come into this thinking I'm picking apart Kakko, I'm not. I'm just concerned that he's not advancing much more and that I feel like he's still not shooting enough. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

It only took @The Dude 3 games to start totally shitting on someone. Just look at that thread title

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, The Dude said:

?? What?

He was drafted for his scoring.

He wasn't known as a set up man. He was known for his ability to shoot from almost anywhere in any location, especially in tight quarters. 

 

I want "more" goals. I want "more" drives to the net for scoring chances. Maybe he changes. Maybe I get "more".  

 

He doesn't belong with 2 guys capable of scoring 50, and I've felt that way since they tried it last year and prior. He shouldn't defer to anyone.  He should be a focal point. This is why he doesn't fit with Panarin and this is why he doesn't fit with Zibanejad. He needs the puck on his stick and he needs to be a trigger man. Otherwise it's a waste of talent. 

In the Worlds before he was drafted, he was a man among boys. Now he's a guy who tries to stickhandle thru the 5 guys on the other team when he can just take a shot. The takeaway/GA  in Columbus was stupid and infuriating. Hoping Laviolette penetrates his thick skull. There's skill there, but who knows.

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

He was drafted as a complete offensive player who has the ability to play 1:1, score, or dish. He isn't Brett Hull, Auston Matthews, Ovechkin.

 

According to the stats, he also didn't "fit" with Chytil and Lafreneiere, so maybe people need to rethink what "fit" means when the numbers say that CK, Zib and Krieder were the best offensive line the Rangers iced last season?

 

This conversation is happening way too early in the season.

He was drafted as a shooter. Every report talked about his one on one skills and about his shot. So, yeah, sorry I figure that to be his biggest asset. Good shot should equal good scorer.    

 

No matter. He doesn't belong with 2 scorers. 

 

I don't use the metrics. I don't care what they say. The production wasn't there. Nor was it there with Panarin and Trocheck, yet their metrics were good. Lafrenière had good metrics with Trocheck and Panairn last year. Stunk.... 

 

Just like how overvalued ES numbers are. Metrics don't tell enough. Ever. 

 

Though,  IMO Kakko looks more comfortable this year with Zibanejad and Kreider, it's still not there. It's a skillset that doesn't mesh very well and wastes Kakkos abilities. 

 

BTW Buchnevich scored 20 goals in 54 games in his last year here. Primarily playing with Kreider and Zibanejad.  Not sure how you can say he was more of a set up/disher for that combination. He had more points than Kreider,  with the same amount of goals.  Zibanejad had 24 goals. They seemed to all compliment each other's game. 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

Kakko has the problem all the Rangers have at even strength.  He's not improvisational at all and he doesn't take good shots even when the opportunity presents.

 

This team, like last year and the year before is a passing sequence looking for a shot and too often a good pass turns into another good pass.

 

This is on the players, period.  Too many setup artists and not enough finishers.

Weird. I think he improvises really well, just doesn't always finish the improvisations in a good way. 

 

I think you have a point about how much they pass, but this year, you can see that they are passing with more variety as their options. 

 

Passes that make sense.  The goal seems to be to get the puck back to Fox or a point man and let them decide where it's going to go.

 

Where as in the past,  it was more east- west stuff that stopped as teams would read it instantly.

 

Things look a lot different and a lot more orchestrated now. As if they HAVE set plans and reasons for making a pass. It's not a ton of winging it like it was. 

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, The Dude said:

He was drafted as a shooter. Every report talked about his one on one skills and about his shot. So, yeah, sorry I figure that to be his biggest asset. Good shot should equal good scorer.    

 

No matter. He doesn't belong with 2 scorers. 

 

I don't use the metrics. I don't care what they say. The production wasn't there. Nor was it there with Panarin and Trocheck, yet their metrics were good. Lafrenière had good metrics with Trocheck and Panairn last year. Stunk.... 

 

Just like how overvalued ES numbers are. Metrics don't tell enough. Ever. 

 

Though,  IMO Kakko looks more comfortable this year with Zibanejad and Kreider, it's still not there. It's a skillset that doesn't mesh very well and wastes Kakkos abilities. 

 

BTW Buchnevich scored 20 goals in 54 games in his last year here. Primarily playing with Kreider and Zibanejad.  Not sure how you can say he was more of a set up/disher for that combination. He had more points than Kreider,  with the same amount of goals.  Zibanejad had 24 goals. They seemed to all compliment each other's game. 

The production wasn't there because GG kept splitting them up lol. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

Year 3 Lafreniere matched year 4 Kakko.

Again Kakko has played 20 something more games. Year three and four comparisons are irrelevant. 

[Jdog99]

Chytil only first 'broke out' to a degree last season - year 6 post draft. And he was a first rounder as well (leave aside Kakko's special 2OA status for now).

 

We're starting year 5 post draft for Kakko.

 

As long as we're playing good hockey as a team and winning, some pressure should come off these individuals and they'll find their way in due time.

 

We should just be pretty happy with the state of the team so far through 3 games.

[The Dude]

19 minutes ago, Bugg said:

In the Worlds before he was drafted, he was a man among boys. Now he's a guy who tries to stickhandle thru the 5 guys on the other team when he can just take a shot. The takeaway/GA  in Columbus was stupid and infuriating. Hoping Laviolette penetrates his thick skull. There's skill there, but who knows.

I think he will. 

 

Just not sure it's going to happen with his current linemates. I didn't think they meshed well last season and I'm not very confident that they do  this year.

 

Atleast not in a way that really utilizes Kakkos abilities. But since he hasn't exactly been able to command those abilities at this level, with anyone... Maybe this is it for him.

 

Or. Like I said. It IS only 3 games. Playing with 2 of the teams top 4 players for an expanded amount of time, may get the gears moving in his head. Maybe it's still a confidence issue.  It may just take one sick goal that lights a fire in him. I'm hoping that's the case,  because I like everything else about the player. 

[Bugg]

17 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Weird. I think he improvises really well, just doesn't always finish the improvisations in a good way. 

 

I think you have a point about how much they pass, but this year, you can see that they are passing with more variety as their options. 

 

Passes that make sense.  The goal seems to be to get the puck back to Fox or a point man and let them decide where it's going to go.

 

Where as in the past,  it was more east- west stuff that stopped as teams would read it instantly.

 

Things look a lot different and a lot more orchestrated now. As if they HAVE set plans and reasons for making a pass. It's not a ton of winging it like it was. 

Looks like somebody put it in his head that cycling was a really good thing. But did so without also saying, only if it ends a good scoring chance. He's very effective along the all but it doesn't much translate into scoring chances. So far. 

[Sod16]

Logan Cooley, a third overall pick with two NHL games under his belt, had more visible impact on the Arizona game than did Kakko or LaF.

[The Dude]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

The production wasn't there because GG kept splitting them up lol. 

Yet in the limited amount of games you'll say they were tge Rangers best line due to some numbers?  The production wasn't there because of GG AND because the kid line clicked better. Each added an element in their game that kinda complimented the other players. 

 

Kakko was the puck carrier and board worker.  Could get the puck down low.  Was also a defensive anchir of sorts. He had no limitations on where hed go on the ice. Always solid on the backcheck. Chytil was the trigger man who had no (or little at times) fear of taking the puck to the net or atleast get to the net without the puck. Lafrenière.. Well..he was there too. Doing..... well he was there....... He'd battle a bit infront of the net. He'd touch pass with the others..  What they did made sense.  

 

Kakko dangling around the net trying to feed 2 goal scorers doesn't seem to work. It doesn't pass an eye test so far. It looks like a jumbled mess most of the time. Just like last year. 

 

The Panarin line looks like it makes the most sense. Like they fit and work together. I don't know if that's all Panarin leg work,  because he's flying everywhere and is an animal at creating turnovers. I really wish the media would give him more props. Atleast ask Laviolette in a presser, how damn good Panarin has been and what he sees from their most skilled forward. It hasn't really been brought up from what I've seen.  Workd class player is getting no chatter. 

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Yet in the limited amount of games you'll say they were tge Rangers best line due to some numbers?  The production wasn't there because of GG AND because the kid line clicked better. Each added an element in their game that kinda complimented the other players. 

 

Kakko was the puck carrier and board worker.  Could get the puck down low.  Was also a defensive anchir of sorts. He had no limitations on where hed go on the ice. Always solid on the backcheck. Chytil was the trigger man who had no (or little at times) fear of taking the puck to the net or atleast get to the net without the puck. Lafrenière.. Well..he was there too. Doing..... well he was there....... He'd battle a bit infront of the net. He'd touch pass with the others..  What they did made sense.  

 

Kakko dangling around the net trying to feed 2 goal scorers doesn't seem to work. It doesn't pass an eye test so far. It looks like a jumbled mess most of the time. Just like last year. 

 

The Panarin line looks like it makes the most sense. Like they fit and work together. I don't know if that's all Panarin leg work,  because he's flying everywhere and is an animal at creating turnovers. I really wish the media would give him more props. Atleast ask Laviolette in a presser, how damn good Panarin has been and what he sees from their most skilled forward. It hasn't really been brought up from what I've seen.  Workd class player is getting no chatter. 

Look, I'm not going to argue with you if you don't pay attention to or ignore the data that opposes your argument. 

[The Dude]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

Look, I'm not going to argue with you if you don't pay attention to or ignore the data that opposes your argument. 

You ignore and don't pay attention to the data that shows Trocheck and Panairn worked (as do I). Not sure why you have issue with me doing exactly that here. 

 

But ok. No biggie.  I think we are all on the same page. We want production from him. We hope to see it soon. 

 

 

[siddious]

47 minutes ago, Pete said:

The production wasn't there because GG kept splitting them up lol. 

Another reason to be happy with the lines as they are so far. Let these guys get comfortable. Changing lines and positions every game was beyond stupid. Gallant had no fucking clue I swear. 

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

 

Passes that make sense.  The goal seems to be to get the puck back to Fox or a point man and let them decide where it's going to go.

 

 

 

The passes back to the point almost always wind up with a cross-ice pass to the other point or circle or some point in between.

 

The only Ranger defensemen who don't do this are Trouba and Miller.  They  both will take a shot or put the puck in the slot somewhere.

 

I'm not saying one approach is better than the other but to just do the cross-ice thing as the main option because it is a safer pass and forces the defense to rotate is just so predictable.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Br4d

[Keirik]

50 minutes ago, Pete said:

Again Kakko has played 20 something more games. Year three and four comparisons are irrelevant. 

That's wrong in my opinion and I think you're cherry picking that . It absolutely makes a difference. It's a year of maturing as an adult. It's a year youre around the league, you're practicing with the team, getting used to being a pro, etc. Let's not also forget that Kakkos rookie year he was regularly used on the pp. Laf? Not so much. Let's also not forget that Kakko came into this league already playing 2 years overseas in Finlands top league. It may not be on par with the NHL by any means but it's a league of grown adult professional hockey players rather than teenagers.

 

All of those metrics  are great but it's a result driven league and year 4  Kakko produced. 40 points whole year 3 Laf produced 39 points. That does mean something. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Keirik said:

That's wrong in my opinion and I think you're cherry picking that . It absolutely makes a difference. It's a year of maturing as an adult. It's a year youre around the league, you're practicing with the team, getting used to being a pro, etc. Let's not also forget that Kakkos rookie year he was regularly used on the pp. Laf? Not so much. Let's also not forget that Kakko came into this league already playing 2 years overseas in Finlands top league. It may not be on par with the NHL by any means but it's a league of grown adult professional hockey players rather than teenagers.

 

All of those metrics  are great but it's a result driven league and year 4  Kakko produced. 40 points whole year 3 Laf produced 39 points. That does mean something. 

I completely disagree. Nothing replicates NHL game situations, and game reps are game reps. There's not that big a difference between the two players developmentally. 

 

Coincidentally, Kakko finds himself on the top line after having earned it with the coach raving about him in camp versus Lafreniere pretty much on his last chance in New York being gifted a slot next to Panarin. 

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

You ignore and don't pay attention to the data that shows Trocheck and Panairn worked (as do I). Not sure why you have issue with me doing exactly that here. 

 

But ok. No biggie.  I think we are all on the same page. We want production from him. We hope to see it soon. 

 

 

It’s classic cherry picking. Let me use underlying 5v5 stats to prove a point here, but disregard them over there.