jsm7302 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Happy to see the support of individual rights and freedoms. This is America and the country's first capital and the NHL just affirmed the same. I don't think passing judgement on Provorov is right though just because his views don't align with some others. The guy believes what he believes and very respectfully declined to participate. This country is the best, even with all it's warts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Newsweek - Russian Orthodox Church Leader Blames Ukraine Invasion On Gay Pride. I mean sure, makes total sense. Nothing to see here. I guess it's just their right to bomb the shit out of a country for their (Ukraines) beliefs. Quote A major religious leader in Russia has come out in support of the invasion of Ukraine and laid the blame on the support of gay rights. Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, during a Sunday sermon called Russia's "military operation" in Ukraine a conflict over "which side of God humanity will be on" between Russia and Western countries that embrace more progressive values. In particular, he called attention to Ukraine's support of gay rights and the presence of gay pride parades, The Moscow Times reported. "Pride parades are designed to demonstrate that sin is one variation of human behavior," Kirill said during the sermon. "That's why in order to join the club of those countries, you have to have a gay pride parade." Quote Ultimately, Kirill called the invasion of Ukraine a conflict about things "far more important than politics," and insinuated that the embrace of progressive western values would lead to the end of civilization. As noted by The Moscow Times, the Russian Orthodox Church has in the past been criticized for seeming to keep in step with the values and goals of the Kremlin during President Vladimir Putin's time in power. Quote "If humanity accepts that sin is not a violation of God's law, if humanity accepts that sin is a variation of human behavior, then human civilization will end there," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valriera Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 the top comment on Reddit is the best response I’ve heard to any of this hahaha: ”my first thought is I don’t care” lol it’s a classic 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 7 hours ago, jsrangers said: Newsweek - Russian Orthodox Church Leader Blames Ukraine Invasion On Gay Pride. I mean sure, makes total sense. Nothing to see here. I guess it's just their right to bomb the shit out of a country for their (Ukraines) beliefs. What's that have to do with this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Pete said: What's that have to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 He’s got the right not to participate in something like that if he chooses not to. He shouldn’t be punished for something like that, and he’s entitled to his opinion. As long as he’s not spitting hate speak or acting on anything like that beyond a refusal to participate, it’s fine. If he’s actually bigoted, as long as he keeps it to himself, that’s what it is. He’s a moron for having those beliefs if that’s in fact the case, but he’s entitled to be a moron if that’s how he feels. Don’t know how valid the religion thing is though? Anyone know if he’s a devout guy, or if that’s just a line from him? Either way though, it’s not a good look for him and he’s going to surely catch backlash for it. I never like the whole religion thing as an excuse. Or people citing the Bible. It endorses slavery no less than 2 dozen times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlairBettsBlocksEverything Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 hours ago, Pete said: What's that have to do with this thread? I mean I think the point is that if he's going to subscribe to the beliefs of the Russian Orthodox church that he probably also believes in that? I do agree its a stretch though. My perspective: Fine, Believe what you want. but be consistent about it. If your religion precludes you from supporting Pride night that's fine. But be consistent in your beliefs. Phil cited the Russian Orthodox church's opposition to gambling but he's not against playing for teams sponsored by DraftKings Fanduel BetMGM BET BET BET BET BET, GAMBLE GAMBLE GAMBLE. I won't fault Provorov for how he handled it specifically in this situation, seemed like he wanted it to be as quiet as possible and wasn't trying to get on a soap box about his beliefs, just opting to not participate. My only issue is more of a general one though. Seems like people use their religious beliefs to justify discrimination. Hell during the civil rights movement Christianity was used as a justification for segregation. People pick and choose which aspects of their religion to justify their discriminatory views. I don't know Provorov. Maybe he doesn't hate gay people and I don't care enough about him specifically to make a huge deal out of it. Just think that using religion to justify discrimination is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said: He’s got the right not to participate in something like that if he chooses not to. He shouldn’t be punished for something like that, and he’s entitled to his opinion. As long as he’s not spitting hate speak or acting on anything like that beyond a refusal to participate, it’s fine. If he’s actually bigoted, as long as he keeps it to himself, that’s what it is. He’s a moron for having those beliefs if that’s in fact the case, but he’s entitled to be a moron if that’s how he feels. Don’t know how valid the religion thing is though? Anyone know if he’s a devout guy, or if that’s just a line from him? Either way though, it’s not a good look for him and he’s going to surely catch backlash for it. I never like the whole religion thing as an excuse. Or people citing the Bible. It endorses slavery no less than 2 dozen times. Yup. It's exactly all of this. Being a bigoted, backward thinking cretin isn't illegal and companies shouldn't be punishing anyone for simply thinking these things. Emphasis on thinking. The moment it crosses over into action, they have grounds to stand on, be it physical violence, incitement to violence, etc. This is all moral gray area stuff, but it's just what happens when you're dealing with religious beliefs because we have freedom of (and from) religion enshrined into our Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Phil said: Yup. It's exactly all of this. Being a bigoted, backward thinking cretin isn't illegal and companies shouldn't be punishing anyone for simply thinking these things. Emphasis on thinking. The moment it crosses over into action, they have grounds to stand on, be it physical violence, incitement to violence, etc. This is all moral gray area stuff, but it's just what happens when you're dealing with religious beliefs because we have freedom of (and from) religion enshrined into our Constitution. I actually think, as much as I disagree with his actions or speculated opinions, that in taking the stance he took, he handled it the right way. He didn’t use the situation wherein the issue that was raised, as a forum, opportunity or proverbial soapbox to discuss it. He didn’t say anything inappropriate. He made no diatribe. He cited his reasons and that was it. I don’t agree with it. But I thought he did fine unless I’m missing something. On a personal level, I have a very good friend, who is also one of the nicest people I’ve ever met, who is a devout Christian. He’s chosen at times to not participate, in a professional setting, in LGBTQ events before, squarely on his religious beliefs. He isn’t bigoted. He’s never said a word against anyone who of that orientation or what have you. And he has personal friends who are. He just believes what he does. His stance is simply that it’s a sin and he won’t support what he believes is a sin. Maybe that’s misdirected. But he believes it. So it’s fine Edited January 19, 2023 by RangersIn7 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Exactly right. It's like I said. The line of demarcation is action, not thought. Think whatever you want. Once you act on it, we can talk possible violations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, Phil said: Exactly right. It's like I said. The line of demarcation is action, not thought. Think whatever you want. Once you act on it, we can talk possible violations. Yup He essentially expressed an unpopular opinion. But he did so as best you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) The point is simple, religion (especially when taken to the extremes and forced on others)regardless of what one is the root of most evil in today's society. The tie in here is he used his Russian Orthodox beliefs as the reason for not wearing a warm up jersey on the ice for I believe 18 mins with all his teammates that was going to be used to raised money. The article points out the extreme beliefs of the leaders of that religion when it comes to hate. Blaming the gay movement for the war. When it comes to the the NHL this was supposed to be about inclusion, I believe there's still a strong bias and huge hesitation for players who are gay to come out for reasons like this, that's sad and wrong imo. Did he have ever right to do it, yep he sure did. Edited January 19, 2023 by jsrangers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 To my knowledge, Provorov hasn't commented. Torts said something about beliefs but didn't specify anything about religion, unless I missed a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Pete said: To my knowledge, Provorov hasn't commented. Torts said something about beliefs but didn't specify anything about religion, unless I missed a lot. he did in his post game interview, he said he was following his religious beliefs and was then asked what religion and he responded Russian Orthodox. Then said that was the last question he would answer related to the subject. From the Athletic: (from another interview) Quote “I respect everybody, and I respect everybody’s choices. My choice is to stay true to myself and my (Russian Orthodox) religion,” Provorov said after the game in explaining his decision to sit out warmups, declining any further comment on the situation. “That’s all I’m going to say.” Look this goes way way beyond hockey so I'm sure there's a bunch of players throughout the league that suck it up and participate in things they don't believe in for the unity of the cause. I'm sure JVR and Laughton were bothered by it, Edited January 19, 2023 by jsrangers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 2 hours ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said: I mean I think the point is that if he's going to subscribe to the beliefs of the Russian Orthodox church that he probably also believes in that? I do agree its a stretch though. My perspective: Fine, Believe what you want. but be consistent about it. If your religion precludes you from supporting Pride night that's fine. But be consistent in your beliefs. Phil cited the Russian Orthodox church's opposition to gambling but he's not against playing for teams sponsored by DraftKings Fanduel BetMGM BET BET BET BET BET, GAMBLE GAMBLE GAMBLE. I won't fault Provorov for how he handled it specifically in this situation, seemed like he wanted it to be as quiet as possible and wasn't trying to get on a soap box about his beliefs, just opting to not participate. My only issue is more of a general one though. Seems like people use their religious beliefs to justify discrimination. Hell during the civil rights movement Christianity was used as a justification for segregation. People pick and choose which aspects of their religion to justify their discriminatory views. I don't know Provorov. Maybe he doesn't hate gay people and I don't care enough about him specifically to make a huge deal out of it. Just think that using religion to justify discrimination is wrong. I'm not familiar with this; how was Christianity leveraged for segregation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlairBettsBlocksEverything Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, jsm7302 said: I'm not familiar with this; how was Christianity leveraged for segregation? I'll cite a few sources but in general i don't believe this is a disputed claim by historians. It certainly was used to defend slavery in america so I will avoid even worrying about citing those aspects. I also won't dispute the fact that there were certainly plenty of religious people who fought for civil rights as well. Just highlighting the point that religion has been used as a mechanism for defending vile parts of our country's history and that I don't think it should be ok to do so. And I don't think we should view LQBTQ+ RIghts through a different lense than we do the civil rights of black people https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/12/05/discriminating-in-the-name-of-religion-segregationists-and-slaveholders-did-it-too/ Quote After the war and the years of Reconstruction ended, white Southerners and the Northerners who wanted to reestablish social and economic ties with them updated these older proslavery ideologies to support an emerging Jim Crow regime of racial segregation. Preachers, politicians and pundits developed a segregationist folk theology that defended the reconstituted Southern racial order as divinely ordained: God had created the races separate and did not intend for them to mix. Through the civil rights period and beyond, this theology enabled segregationist appeals to religious freedom — and shaped a distinctive white racial Christianity in the process. Much like their proslavery predecessors, 20th-century segregationists argued that the civil rights movement was trying to impose an alien, anti-Christian, even communistic ideology that would destroy the Christian racial order of the South. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/883115867/white-supremacist-ideas-have-historical-roots-in-u-s-christianity Quote Racism from the pulpit Less than three weeks after the 1961 attack on the Freedom Riders, Montgomery's most prominent pastor, Henry Lyon Jr., gave a fiery speech before the local white Citizens' Council, denouncing the civil rights protesters and the cause for which they were beaten — from a "Christian" perspective. "Ladies and gentlemen, for 15 years I have had the privilege of being pastor of a white Baptist church in this city," Lyon said. "If we stand 100 years from now, it will still be a white church. I am a believer in a separation of the races, and I am none the less a Christian." The crowd applauded. "If you want to get in a fight with the one that started separation of the races, then you come face to face with your God," he declared. "The difference in color, the difference in our body, our minds, our life, our mission upon the face of this earth, is God given." https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/ Quote The Green v. Connally ruling provided a necessary first step: It captured the attention of evangelical leaders , especially as the IRS began sending questionnaires to church-related “segregation academies,” including Falwell’s own Lynchburg Christian School, inquiring about their racial policies. Falwell was furious. “In some states,” he famously complained, “It’s easier to open a massage parlor than a Christian school.” One such school, Bob Jones University—a fundamentalist college in Greenville, South Carolina—was especially obdurate. The IRS had sent its first letter to Bob Jones University in November 1970 to ascertain whether or not it discriminated on the basis of race. The school responded defiantly: It did not admit African Americans. Although Bob Jones Jr., the school’s founder, argued that racial segregation was mandated by the Bible, Falwell and Weyrich quickly sought to shift the grounds of the debate, framing their opposition in terms of religious freedom rather than in defense of racial segregation. For decades, evangelical leaders had boasted that because their educational institutions accepted no federal money (except for, of course, not having to pay taxes) the government could not tell them how to run their shops—whom to hire or not, whom to admit or reject. The Civil Rights Act, however, changed that calculus. Addendum to add, maybe this all should move over to the politics section afterall Edited January 19, 2023 by BlairBettsBlocksEverything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said: I'll cite a few sources but in general i don't believe this is a disputed claim by historians. It certainly was used to defend slavery in america so I will avoid even worrying about citing those aspects. I also won't dispute the fact that there were certainly plenty of religious people who fought for civil rights as well. Just highlighting the point that religion has been used as a mechanism for defending vile parts of our country's history and that I don't think it should be ok to do so. And I don't think we should view LQBTQ+ RIghts through a different lense than we do the civil rights of black people https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/12/05/discriminating-in-the-name-of-religion-segregationists-and-slaveholders-did-it-too/ https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/883115867/white-supremacist-ideas-have-historical-roots-in-u-s-christianity https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/ Addendum to add, maybe this all should move over to the politics section afterall Wow. Thank you for that. Crazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, jsrangers said: he did in his post game interview, he said he was following his religious beliefs and was then asked what religion and he responded Russian Orthodox. Then said that was the last question he would answer related to the subject. From the Athletic: (from another interview) Look this goes way way beyond hockey so I'm sure there's a bunch of players throughout the league that suck it up and participate in things they don't believe in for the unity of the cause. I'm sure JVR and Laughton were bothered by it, Why? And they had a right to do what Provorov did. I'm just not clear on why it's OK for Colin Kaepernick et al to express their non-support of a thing in a respectful way, but it's not OK for Provorov. Not standing and not wearing a jersey are not very different. Edited January 19, 2023 by Pete 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash or Czech Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, Pete said: Why? And they had a right to do what Provorov did. I'm just not clear on why it's OK for Colin Kaepernick et al to express their non-support of a thing in a respectful way, but it's not OK for Provorov. Not standing and not wearing a jersey are not very different. I think he's talking about how Laughton and JVR launched a program supporting the LGBTQ+ community, and it possibly creating a divide in the locker room? https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-to-host-annual-pride-game-at-wells-fargo-center-tonight--philadelphia-flyers/c-340063488 Quote Last year, van Riemsdyk and Laughton launched a program in support of local LGBTQ+ youth in the Greater Philadelphia area. They've continued the program by providing four game tickets to local LGBTQ+ organizations for 20 home games during the 2022-2023 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 17 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said: I think he's talking about how Laughton and JVR launched a program supporting the LGBTQ+ community, and it possibly creating a divide in the locker room? https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-to-host-annual-pride-game-at-wells-fargo-center-tonight--philadelphia-flyers/c-340063488 Ah. I don't think athletes care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richter35 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 My question is what is the league trying to accomplish by making the players wear the jerseys ? To me it is just virtue signallng. Again my opinion, but why does the NHL need to get involved in anything resembling politics. I watch sports to escape the crazy politics we are forced to live with every day. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 44 minutes ago, Richter35 said: My question is what is the league trying to accomplish by making the players wear the jerseys ? To me it is just virtue signallng. Again my opinion, but why does the NHL need to get involved in anything resembling politics. I watch sports to escape the crazy politics we are forced to live with every day. It's not politics. It's half societal, and half marketing. What brand out there isn't doing something performative to show they support a community during a heritage month. It's about attracting fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richter35 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 I get that, but that issue is very political. Cant avoid that part of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richter35 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 They also risk losing more fans than they attract. It's a hot button issue. Why not just stick to hockey. No pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 17 minutes ago, Richter35 said: I get that, but that issue is very political. Cant avoid that part of it. Being gay isn't political. Showing support for a community isn't political. I don't know why people are calling this politics. It's not. It's social. It's religion and sexual preference, and those things have no place in politics whatsoever. 15 minutes ago, Richter35 said: They also risk losing more fans than they attract. It's a hot button issue. Why not just stick to hockey. No pun intended. If that was going to happen, it'd have happened. This isn't the first Pride night ever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now