Ivan Provorov Sits Out Warmups on Pride Night; Cites 'Religious Beliefs'

[LindG1000]

Usual disclaimer on these sorts of threads - please use your head and your discretion before commenting, and homophobic remarks will be infracted.

 

That said...the reaction to this from the hockey community has been surprisingly consistent - Provorov and Torts fucked up:

 

  

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

People have religious beliefs, that's fine. Do you.

 

I take it that means he won't ever play hockey on Sundays because his religion says you can't work on the sabbath though right? Also her won't ever eat shrimp because the bible says not to.

[LindG1000]

I'll start with this:

 

Provorov's got a right to say no to this. Pride night is about support - and he shouldn't have to support something he doesn't believe in. That said, he does need to tolerate it, and I think it would have gone a long way for him to say more than "I'm Russian Orthodox, so I don't support this and I won't go out there". Wyshynski suggested that he should have made a donation to Flyers Charities if this was his plan, and I think that's probably right. He can support his team, support his teammates, and tolerate that there are folks out there who don't align with his religious beliefs that have a right to be there.

 

It stands out so much more when he's got two teammates in JVR and Laughton who used last night to announce broad support for LGBTQ+ initiatives in Philadelphia, including donating tickets to home games. 

[Blue Heaven]

Going to be interesting to see what happens when they have military night....Going to happily wear a military style uniform for warm ups that supports US troops either though Russia has invaded Ukraine and the US is supporting Ukraine?  

[Cash or Czech]

Should've just made him a healthy scratch.

 

EDIT: Changed my mind. This is so inconsequential. Let the guy believe what he believes. Rather he not be forced to support something he doesn't believe in, as is a Stanley Cup team's right to not visit the president whether it be Timmy Thomas not going to see Obama or an entire team not seeing Trump.

 

Just don't say "I respect all people and their choices" since he doesn't. Torts saying he'd bench players kneeling for the anthem...woof. We'll see. I don't think this will remain an issue for long.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Cash or Czech

[Phil]

 

[BrooksBurner]

This thread should go well

[Phil]

It's an important discussion to have.

 

I have no issue with Provorov not skating and citing his religious beliefs. That's his right. Even if he's actually homophobic. No laws were broken here. Is it hypocritical? Probably. But I'd argue the overwhelming majority of Christians are hypocrites regardless. Outside of the most orthodox, most Christians pick and choose what to believe, or "reinterpret" what they disagree with while simultaneously holding scripture up as beyond reproach.

 

@BlairBettsBlocksEverything already cited some of the obvious examples. Hell, the Bible is pretty against gambling, too. I'd doubt very much his convictions go very deep on that front, despite the league writ large being just inundated with sports betting sponsorships and ads.

 

Torts probably stepped on a rake here, though, given his very recent comments about threatening to bench any of his players who would kneel for the anthem while seemingly being OK with this whole situation.

[LindG1000]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

It's an important discussion to have.

 

I have no issue with Provorov not skating and citing his religious beliefs. That's his right. Even if he's actually homophobic. No laws were broken here. Is it hypocritical? Probably. But I'd argue the overwhelming majority of Christians are hypocrites regardless. Outside of the most orthodox, most Christians pick and choose what to believe, or "reinterpret" what they disagree with while simultaneously holding scripture up as beyond reproach.

 

@BlairBettsBlocksEverything already cited some of the obvious examples. Hell, the Bible is pretty against gambling, too. I'd doubt very much his convictions go very deep on that front, despite the league writ large being just inundated with sports betting sponsorships and ads.

 

Torts probably stepped on a rake here, though, given his very recent comments about threatening to bench any of his players who would kneel for the anthem while seemingly being OK with this whole situation.

With fairness to Torts, he rescinded that comment after 2020, citing the BLM protests as the driver of his change. 

[Phil]

13 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

With fairness to Torts, he rescinded that comment after 2020, citing the BLM protests as the driver of his change. 

 

Did he? Didn't know that. That's good to hear.

[Pete]

Too many people confuse "support" with "tolerance". In the US you're guaranteed tolerance but not support. 

 

If he's a homophobe, fine. As long as he's keeping it to himself it's his business. 

 

He chose to not participate. It's his right and no one's business. He didn't burn the jersey at center or write "god hates f*gs" across the back. 

 

These idiots on twitter saying "he told gays hockey isn't for them," are just morons. All he said is supporting homosexuality isn't for him, in the most respectful way possible. He refrained from participating. 

[Valriera]

The cancel culture around this stuff is unnerving. Provorov is not out here promoting homophobic frames of mind. It's up to him whether he chooses to support pride night or not, just like it should be up to him whether he chooses to wear the camo jerseys on veterans night and whatever the fuck else. Yep, he's an asshole for not doing it and you'd hope everyone would do it, but he's not out there making a statement about it. He's just not wearing the jersey/tape. The press asked him, he answered. It's different than the national anthems and I think we make far too big a deal out of this stuff as a rule. 

 

I tolerate pride and all that stuff - I've been to a parade myself with my brother. Had a great time. It doesn't mean I need to go out skating in a rainbow jersey and I think it's a little ridiculous that we have any expectation that players do it to begin with. It's great that so many do, but also, go ahead and don't do it too. Whatever. 

[Valriera]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

in the most respectful way possible. He refrained from participating. 

Right? Like what people expect past that is their problem, not his. How much more respectful can he be than quietly showing up to work, playing hockey, and just choosing not to wear a rainbow jersey? 

[Phil]

25 minutes ago, Valriera said:

The cancel culture around this stuff is unnerving. Provorov is not out here promoting homophobic frames of mind. It's up to him whether he chooses to support pride night or not, just like it should be up to him whether he chooses to wear the camo jerseys on veterans night and whatever the fuck else. Yep, he's an asshole for not doing it and you'd hope everyone would do it, but he's not out there making a statement about it. He's just not wearing the jersey/tape. The press asked him, he answered. It's different than the national anthems and I think we make far too big a deal out of this stuff as a rule. 

 

I tolerate pride and all that stuff - I've been to a parade myself with my brother. Had a great time. It doesn't mean I need to go out skating in a rainbow jersey and I think it's a little ridiculous that we have any expectation that players do it to begin with. It's great that so many do, but also, go ahead and don't do it too. Whatever. 

 

It's not different at all, actually. Kneeling during the anthem, supporting LGBTQ, or Military Appreciation efforts are all personal decisions to be made by players based on personal beliefs.

 

I agree, personally speaking, I think it's ridiculous and insensitive to continue suggesting that LGBTQ people are making a "choice," and I think Provorov is an asshole if he truly believes that. I also think this is only hurting him. There were already reports he's not a popular guy in their dressing room (though I have no idea if this is why), and he's put himself in the spotlight by making this call, rather than just skating with the stupid jersey on and feigning sincerity to avoid all of this backlash.

 

But it's 100% his right to make this decision and he shouldn't actually be punished for it by the Flyers or the League. The last thing we need is compulsory acceptance of beliefs as part of employment in a sports league.

[Keirik]

We should actually applaud him. Not for his beliefs but for making it known public how ignorant he is. The devil you know and all of that. But also, I think it’s time we stop putting celebrities and athletes on pedestals. They are just as flawed as the next guy in line at the grocery store. They just have a platform to spread it. 

[Phil]

Agreed. Provorov shouldn't be punished for not participating in a practice he disagrees with, even if we vehemently disagree with why he holds that position. Also, he should be ridiculed to the end of the earth for it, just like DeAngelo is for much of his antics and off-ice nonsense.

[BrooksBurner]

An American kneeling for the American National Anthem is not really an equivalence. Those were Americans protesting things going on in America, and they are a part of the group (country) they are protesting against. The closer equivalence to that here would be a homosexual or transgender person not participating in Pride Night because they don't like things that the LGBTQxyz group is doing. A straight religious person not participating in a night of promotion for a group he is not a part of is not the same.

[Sod16]

 

The LBGTQ flag is a political symbol.  NHL players should not be forced or pressured to wear political symbols that they don't agree with.  This is particularly the case when it's not clear what exactly the symbol means.  Does it mean support of hormone therapy for eight year old purportedly transgendered children?  Does it mean support for teaching human sexuality topics to five year olds?  Stuff like that seem to be cutting edge "LBGTQ" issues, and so long as that is the case, let players decide whether to wear the symbol and, more importantly, put no pressure on those who would prefer not to.  If I were a player, I would not wear politically oriented symbols, even if I agreed with them.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, rmc51 said:

An American kneeling for the American National Anthem is not really an equivalence. Those were Americans protesting things going on in America, and they are a part of the group (country) they are protesting against. The closer equivalence to that here would be a homosexual or transgender person not participating in Pride Night because they don't like things that the LGBTQxyz group is doing. A straight religious person not participating in a night of promotion for a group he is not a part of is not the same.

 

Nah, this is lost in the weeds. The fundamental issue here is personal choice. It's a personal choice to kneel for the national anthem because you disagree with what you believe it stands for in exactly the same way it is a personal choice to not wear a pride uniform in warmups because you disagree with what it stands for.

 

In both cases, regardless of the justification being religious in nature, we're dealing with thought police. No one should be punished by their employer for believing in something. The NHL handled this correctly, I think, in the follow-up statement in which they responded to Provorov's public positioning by reinforcing that it is both his right to hold it and that they disagree with why he is holding it.

[Dunny]

 

[BrooksBurner]

54 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Nah, this is lost in the weeds. The fundamental issue here is personal choice. It's a personal choice to kneel for the national anthem because you disagree with what you believe it stands for in exactly the same way it is a personal choice to not wear a pride uniform in warmups because you disagree with what it stands for.

 

In both cases, regardless of the justification being religious in nature, we're dealing with thought police. No one should be punished by their employer for believing in something. The NHL handled this correctly, I think, in the follow-up statement in which they responded to Provorov's public positioning by reinforcing that it is both his right to hold it and that they disagree with why he is holding it.

 

It’s not lost in the weeds at all. You can’t use whataboutisms that don’t apply.

[Cash or Czech]

2 hours ago, Sod16 said:

 

The LBGTQ flag is a political symbol.  NHL players should not be forced or pressured to wear political symbols that they don't agree with.  This is particularly the case when it's not clear what exactly the symbol means.  Does it mean support of hormone therapy for eight year old purportedly transgendered children?  Does it mean support for teaching human sexuality topics to five year olds?  Stuff like that seem to be cutting edge "LBGTQ" issues, and so long as that is the case, let players decide whether to wear the symbol and, more importantly, put no pressure on those who would prefer not to.  If I were a player, I would not wear politically oriented symbols, even if I agreed with them.

The majority of individuals that identify with the LGBTQ community and symbol are gay and lesbian individuals persecuted for their biological being not unlike African Americans or Latino “illegals”. It’s being made a political symbol by those on one side. The other side is just seeking for people to accept them as the human beings they are, and use that symbol for their community that is incredibly diverse. 

 

Let’s also not give Provorov more credit than he’s due. This is most likely the overarching gay community he doesn’t support. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Cash or Czech

[Dunny]

A good sign you're definitely being persecuted is when you walk in to your bank and they have your symbolism hanging from the rafters, in celebration.

 

Or, perhaps you have an entire month, plus several random days, held in your honor.

 

Or maybe, when your employer sends out several emails throughout the year extolling your virtues and reminding everyone how special and important you are just because.

 

Another great example would be your government passing several laws, over multiple decades, expressly forbidding any discrimination against your exact traits.

 

Who exactly is being persecuted and by whom?

 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, rmc51 said:

 

It’s not lost in the weeds at all. You can’t use whataboutisms that don’t apply.

 

What doesn't apply? The details help differentiate each case but the crux of the argument never changes. We're dealing with an issue of when and where (if ever) a company should punish beliefs.

[Cash or Czech]

22 minutes ago, Dunny said:

A good sign you're definitely being persecuted is when you walk in to your bank and they have your symbolism hanging from the rafters, in celebration.

 

Or, perhaps you have an entire month, plus several random days, held in your honor.

 

Or maybe, when your employer sends out several emails throughout the year extolling your virtues and reminding everyone how special and important you are just because.

 

Another great example would be your government passing several laws, over multiple decades, expressly forbidding any discrimination against your exact traits.

 

Who exactly is being persecuted and by whom?

 

The AIDS epidemic? Stonewall? The Holocaust? Heck, even Monkeypox? There event had to be a Supreme Court judgement to ensure the right to marriage, as well as not be able to discriminate in the workplace for sexual orientation. 
 

You were so close in your last point too. Yes, the Supreme Court had to protect their rights in the first place. 

 

So in your eyes because we have Juneteenth and MLK that black people haven’t suffered or were discriminated against?

 

Pride month is a bunch of capitalist bullshit anyway. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Cash or Czech