How Not to Rebuild: NYR Edition

[ThirtyONE]

With all the chaos happening this season everyone is looking for short term solutions on how to fix this current team. "They should be cup contenders" they said. 

 

But should they? 

 

Last season, the team was mostly bad with the exception of one player: Igor. Yes they got goals from Kreider and Mika and Panarin but the TEAM was a mess until the deadline came and they brought in FIVE more players to fill out the roster. This offseason we couldn't afford to keep any of those new players. So where was the depth going to come from? Chytil, Kakko and Lafreniere, of course. 

 

Except here's the problem:

The Rangers NEVER gave the kids the keys to the franchise. They never built up the one part of their games that gives them confidence. Offense.

 

Instead, from David Quinn to Gerard Gallant, from Gorton to Drury, this team has been mandated to WIN hockey games instead of build up their youngest players. From day one, Kaapo Kakko, Filip Chytil and Alexi Lafreniere have been asked to be passengers while Panarin and Kreider and Strome and Trochek and Mika drive the bus.  They've been kept on the 3rd line or worse for the majority of their careers. They've been punished harshly for mistakes. It's hard not to look across the river and make comparisons, so let's measure Kakko to Hughes to show how both teams have gone about developing their players:

 

Jack Hughes career TOI: 3469.2

Kaapo Kakko career TOI: 2704.1

Kaapo has played 10 less games than Hughes in their careers, but assuming 18 minutes of ice time per night (which Kakko doesn't get) he's played the equivalent of 42 less NHL games.

 

Hughes Career PP TOI: 592.7

Kakko Career PP TOI: 292.6

 

Kakko has had less than half the amount of PP time as Hughes, and as we've seen Kakko's time comes in 13 second spurts. 

 

SO WHAT'S THE POINT? KAKKO ISN'T AS GOOD AS HUGHES.

That's true. He's not. But this isn't just about Kakko. This is about Chytil. This is about Lafreniere, Kravstov, Ludkvist and even Lias Andersson. The Rangers have stockpiled picks for seemingly no reason. THREE first round picks have asked for a trade because they didn't see where they fit in the plans. During a rebuild, your three best prospects received so little ice time they asked to leave.

 

We have no idea how good these players can be or could have been. Look at the Leafs. Look at the Oilers. Look at the Devils. Look at Tampa and the Hawks and the Penguins before them. Everyone who is now a star in the league was thrust into positive playing time while their team sucked. It didn't matter, because the players were growing. They were gaining confidence. They played every aspect of the game. That is not what has happened here.

 

How do you fix the current team? 

You do what should have been done 3 years ago. You put the kids on the ice. Over Panarin. Over Kreider. Over Trocheck. And you stop worrying about winning games. Panarin is not the future. Kreider and Mika are not the future. The team is about 4 players deep at this point. Everyone else is useless. You put the kids out and you see who swims. 

[Valriera]

I don't know about the 'how do you fix the current team' section (that is definitely not going to fix shit), but this is a great analysis that points out the 'why' behind why the kids aren't doing what we think they should be, yet. 

 

The 'what to do about it' falls to a much simpler thing, which is the coach. It's taxi time, and it has been for two games now. 

[siddious]

Bad at winning. Even worse at rebuilding. 
 

feels like we’re on the heels of 1998 again with a shitty team and a front office that doesn’t get it. 

[goondman]

41 minutes ago, ThirtyONE said:

With all the chaos happening this season everyone is looking for short term solutions on how to fix this current team. "They should be cup contenders" they said. 

 

But should they? 

 

Last season, the team was mostly bad with the exception of one player: Igor. Yes they got goals from Kreider and Mika and Panarin but the TEAM was a mess until the deadline came and they brought in FIVE more players to fill out the roster. This offseason we couldn't afford to keep any of those new players. So where was the depth going to come from? Chytil, Kakko and Lafreniere, of course. 

 

Except here's the problem:

The Rangers NEVER gave the kids the keys to the franchise. They never built up the one part of their games that gives them confidence. Offense.

 

Instead, from David Quinn to Gerard Gallant, from Gorton to Drury, this team has been mandated to WIN hockey games instead of build up their youngest players. From day one, Kaapo Kakko, Filip Chytil and Alexi Lafreniere have been asked to be passengers while Panarin and Kreider and Strome and Trochek and Mika drive the bus.  They've been kept on the 3rd line or worse for the majority of their careers. They've been punished harshly for mistakes. It's hard not to look across the river and make comparisons, so let's measure Kakko to Hughes to show how both teams have gone about developing their players:

 

Jack Hughes career TOI: 3469.2

Kaapo Kakko career TOI: 2704.1

Kaapo has played 10 less games than Hughes in their careers, but assuming 18 minutes of ice time per night (which Kakko doesn't get) he's played the equivalent of 42 less NHL games.

 

Hughes Career PP TOI: 592.7

Kakko Career PP TOI: 292.6

 

Kakko has had less than half the amount of PP time as Hughes, and as we've seen Kakko's time comes in 13 second spurts. 

 

SO WHAT'S THE POINT? KAKKO ISN'T AS GOOD AS HUGHES.

That's true. He's not. But this isn't just about Kakko. This is about Chytil. This is about Lafreniere, Kravstov, Ludkvist and even Lias Andersson. The Rangers have stockpiled picks for seemingly no reason. THREE first round picks have asked for a trade because they didn't see where they fit in the plans. During a rebuild, your three best prospects received so little ice time they asked to leave.

 

We have no idea how good these players can be or could have been. Look at the Leafs. Look at the Oilers. Look at the Devils. Look at Tampa and the Hawks and the Penguins before them. Everyone who is now a star in the league was thrust into positive playing time while their team sucked. It didn't matter, because the players were growing. They were gaining confidence. They played every aspect of the game. That is not what has happened here.

 

How do you fix the current team? 

You do what should have been done 3 years ago. You put the kids on the ice. Over Panarin. Over Kreider. Over Trocheck. And you stop worrying about winning games. Panarin is not the future. Kreider and Mika are not the future. The team is about 4 players deep at this point. Everyone else is useless. You put the kids out and you see who swims. 

Until Dolan is out the equation, its just wheel spinning

[goondman]

8 minutes ago, siddious said:

Bad at winning. Even worse at rebuilding. 
 

feels like we’re on the heels of 1998 again with a shitty team and a front office that doesn’t get it. 

When did they ever get it?

[siddious]

7 minutes ago, goondman said:

When did they ever get it?

They found a clue between 2004-2015ish 

[BrooksBurner]

I liked the post, because it’s a good one, but I don’t agree with all of it. There are plenty of examples of players stepping onto good teams and developing into good to great players. If the kids were good enough they would have forced the hand. Ripping it down and handing the keys to the franchise over has just as much a chance, if not more, of making a team the Buffalo Sabres as it does making them the Penguins with young Malkin/Crosby.

[Phil]

Yeah, the problem was they lucked into Lafrenière. Most teams who draft high, like New Jersey, are awful and have the room on the roster to give them the runway they need to take flight. The Rangers never did, because their rebuild was done on the fly from day one. They were drafting Kakko and Laf and Chytil while simultaneously signing Trouba, and Panarin, and Trocheck.

 

It was always a half pregnant rebuild.

 

I also think they drafted pretty undynamic players in both Kakko and Lafrenière, so they were never going to benefit like the Leafs did with Matthews, or the Devils did with Hughes.

[ThirtyONE]

42 minutes ago, Valriera said:

I don't know about the 'how do you fix the current team' section (that is definitely not going to fix shit), but this is a great analysis that points out the 'why' behind why the kids aren't doing what we think they should be, yet. 

 

The 'what to do about it' falls to a much simpler thing, which is the coach. It's taxi time, and it has been for two games now. 

I don't agree for the simple reason that we've seen two different coaches do the same thing. And two different GMs do the same thing. The fundamental understand of how to develop players in this organization is broken. And until they just accept that these kids need to play regardless of outcome, they will disappointing players. 

 

Can this happen under James Dolan? I have no idea, but probably not. That's likely why they signed Panarin on year one of the rebuild. Panarin signaled to the rest of the organization that it was time to win now, regardless of development.

Edited December 4, 2022 by ThirtyONE

[ThirtyONE]

17 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yeah, the problem was they lucked into Lafrenière. Most teams who draft high, like New Jersey, are awful and have the room on the roster to give them the runway they need to take flight. The Rangers never did, because their rebuild was done in the fly from day one. They were drafting Kakko and Laf and Chytil while  simultaneously signing Trouba and Panarin, and Trocheck.

 

It was always a half pregnant rebuild.

 

I also think they drafted pretty undynamic players in both Kakko and Lafrenière, so they were never going to benefit like the Leafs did with Matthews, or the Devils did with Hughes.

 

Both players were consensus #1 and #2 picks. Lafreniere had been hyped for 3+ years. He's 100% un-dynamic now. But I'd argue we'll never know how good he could have been based on him being stashed behind Kreider and Panarin for what is likely the majority of his rangers career.

 

But you touched on my overall point. The "rebuild" was never a rebuild and it's literally choking the franchise now. 

[josh]

Put kids in a place to be successful.

 

or, OR…

ask them to play sheltered third line minutes with Brett Howden. Let’s see how it works. 

[ThirtyONE]

It's not just sheltered 3rd line minutes with Howden. It's also being expected to not make mistakes playing defense (which is literally the opposite reason why you drafted them)

[cupalife]

2 hours ago, ThirtyONE said:

With all the chaos happening this season everyone is looking for short term solutions on how to fix this current team. "They should be cup contenders" they said. 

 

But should they? 

 

Last season, the team was mostly bad with the exception of one player: Igor. Yes they got goals from Kreider and Mika and Panarin but the TEAM was a mess until the deadline came and they brought in FIVE more players to fill out the roster. This offseason we couldn't afford to keep any of those new players. So where was the depth going to come from? Chytil, Kakko and Lafreniere, of course. 

 

Except here's the problem:

The Rangers NEVER gave the kids the keys to the franchise. They never built up the one part of their games that gives them confidence. Offense.

 

Instead, from David Quinn to Gerard Gallant, from Gorton to Drury, this team has been mandated to WIN hockey games instead of build up their youngest players. From day one, Kaapo Kakko, Filip Chytil and Alexi Lafreniere have been asked to be passengers while Panarin and Kreider and Strome and Trochek and Mika drive the bus.  They've been kept on the 3rd line or worse for the majority of their careers. They've been punished harshly for mistakes. It's hard not to look across the river and make comparisons, so let's measure Kakko to Hughes to show how both teams have gone about developing their players:

 

Jack Hughes career TOI: 3469.2

Kaapo Kakko career TOI: 2704.1

Kaapo has played 10 less games than Hughes in their careers, but assuming 18 minutes of ice time per night (which Kakko doesn't get) he's played the equivalent of 42 less NHL games.

 

Hughes Career PP TOI: 592.7

Kakko Career PP TOI: 292.6

 

Kakko has had less than half the amount of PP time as Hughes, and as we've seen Kakko's time comes in 13 second spurts. 

 

SO WHAT'S THE POINT? KAKKO ISN'T AS GOOD AS HUGHES.

That's true. He's not. But this isn't just about Kakko. This is about Chytil. This is about Lafreniere, Kravstov, Ludkvist and even Lias Andersson. The Rangers have stockpiled picks for seemingly no reason. THREE first round picks have asked for a trade because they didn't see where they fit in the plans. During a rebuild, your three best prospects received so little ice time they asked to leave.

 

We have no idea how good these players can be or could have been. Look at the Leafs. Look at the Oilers. Look at the Devils. Look at Tampa and the Hawks and the Penguins before them. Everyone who is now a star in the league was thrust into positive playing time while their team sucked. It didn't matter, because the players were growing. They were gaining confidence. They played every aspect of the game. That is not what has happened here.

 

How do you fix the current team? 

You do what should have been done 3 years ago. You put the kids on the ice. Over Panarin. Over Kreider. Over Trocheck. And you stop worrying about winning games. Panarin is not the future. Kreider and Mika are not the future. The team is about 4 players deep at this point. Everyone else is useless. You put the kids out and you see who swims. 

It's 100% spot on.  Most teams don't hand out a massive UFA contract for 7 years in the first year of a rebuild because they understand  that 1: they will need the top ice time to develop their top prospects and 2: that even when the rebuild is complete the player(s) you signed to that contract is on the downswing of their career(s) and the contract(s) is hindering you in completing your team.

 

The thought that the Rangers lucked into Laf and Kakko therefore excusing them from signing Kredier and Panarin isn't a fair assessment.  The Rangers were amassing a huge number of high draft picks and drafting a large pool of top prospects.  There was never any guarantee to which players would pan out.  The whole point of a rebuild is tear it down and completely remake the core of your team with guys who by age and contract are going to grow into the identity of your team.  Instead the Rangers once again decided the way to do that was to throw money at it and leave the kids as "passengers" like @ThirtyONEis saying.  They sacrificed development for the push for a playoff berth to earn a couple extra bucks.  

[Sod16]

I'd like to see the state of this board after we lose a few games with Kakko, LaF and Chytil on the 1st PP and Zib and Co. getting the last 20 seconds.

[Pete]

Revisionist history. They signed Kreider before lottery gave them Laf, and signed Panarin before pandemic. 

 

You can point to the contract now and say it's a hindrance, but who could have known the cap would be flat for 3 years and then slow growth for two more? 

[Blue Heaven]

56 minutes ago, Pete said:

Revisionist history. They signed Kreider before lottery gave them Laf, and signed Panarin before pandemic. 

 

You can point to the contract now and say it's a hindrance, but who could have known the cap would be flat for 3 years and then slow growth for two more? 

Also signed Kreider right before the pandemic (2-3 weeks before the shutdown) to add that signing before lottery 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Blue Heaven

[Sod16]

CK is on pace to score about 39 goals this year.  If he continues to score over 25 for the next few years, his contract will be a bargain.  Move on Kreider haters.

[Jdog99]

Im all in agreement that the young ones have not been developed properly...

 

I mean, what are the chances the rangers just happened to miss on two consensus  'cant miss' draft picks in a row?

Edited December 4, 2022 by Jdog99

[The Dude]

Probably should have kept that Strome/Trochek money and made the kid line the 2nd line pushing Panarin up to line 1. 

 

I really like Trochek and his game.  It just seems like he doesn't fit.  Strange because they need more players that play like him. He's more like a winger, but is awesome on faceoffs. Maybe there's some line and position shifting they can do with him to push Chytil and Kakko up the lineup? Didn't Trochek play some wing with Florida? 

 

There's plenty of ways to bump the kids playing time. Gallant just won't give them the opportunity for long.

 

Fucking guy went into preseason saying he was going to keep the kid line intact.  Fast forward.... They didn't play together until like mid-end November.

 

What's with this guy? It's almost like he'd rather fuck with the media and the fans, rather than make smart decisions or make changes that are suggested by others. His ego should be in check. Guy hasn't won shit. You're not Keenan, you're not Torts. Stop with your smirk and condescending remarks to everyone. You're not doing a good job. So you have no leg to stand on. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Sod16 said:

CK is on pace to score about 39 goals this year.  If he continues to score over 25 for the next few years, his contract will be a bargain.  Move on Kreider haters.

That's got nothing to do with him signing before the lottery, if they were committed to the rebuild they would have let him walk if they knew they were getting Laff. 

 

Now he's blocking Laff. 

[Phil]

5 hours ago, ThirtyONE said:

 

Both players were consensus #1 and #2 picks. Lafreniere had been hyped for 3+ years. He's 100% un-dynamic now. But I'd argue we'll never know how good he could have been based on him being stashed behind Kreider and Panarin for what is likely the majority of his rangers career.

 

But you touched on my overall point. The "rebuild" was never a rebuild and it's literally choking the franchise now. 

 

I didn't say they were taken out of consensus, I said they're not dynamic, because they're not dynamic. Kakko is basically end-of-career Rick Nash, and Lafreniere is, I have no idea. I guess Owen Nolan, like @Dunny suggested. The Rangers just didn't get the luck they needed. They should have gotten Hughes, but didn't.

 

They got Yakupov'd. Twice.

[Scott]

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I didn't say they were taken out of consensus, I said they're not dynamic, because they're not dynamic. Kakko is basically end-of-career Rick Nash, and Lafreniere is, I have no idea. I guess Owen Nolan, like @Dunny suggested. The Rangers just didn't get the luck they needed. They should have gotten Hughes, but didn't.

 

They got Yakupov'd. Twice.

This.

 

There's a ton a truth in many things said here in this thread but to me it comes down to the most basic thing like make me notice you regardless of what line or how many minutes your playing. Stick out, make it impossible to wonder if you played in the game. Show confidence, a cockiness SOMETHING.  You can argue the rebuild wasn't built around developing them and that's fair, but they've had windows of opportunity to play up and they've failed to take the ball and run with it. They failed with every ball at this point. Hughes is a dynamic, your never going to wonder if I played tonight game, since day one. He had some horrendous games but you always knew he was there. His balls are twice the size, he takes the puck to tough areas all 150 pounds of him. He tries to make the big play, he doesn't go in 2 on 1 and take the puck to the corner etc. Those aren't things that should need to be developed imo, it's instinct, it's will etc.

 

Not saying they made the wrong picks but Yakupov'd twice is exactly right.

[4EverRangerFrank]

I don't agree with this, but we were 'too successful' last season to give the kids big minutes. The way I see our rebuild, Broadway just cannot accept a long-term project. Everything has to happen in a New York minute. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by 4EverRangerFrank

[Br4d]

So one way to fix this is to leverage your vets into assets for the young guys instead of putting the vets out front and having the young guys muddle through.

 

One example would be using one of the better two-way 200 ft Centers in the NHL to build up your two most valuable prospects.

 

Lafreniere - Zibanejad - Kakko.

 

Line two in that scenario would probably be Kreider - Chytil - Panarin.  I guess you could shift Panarin and Kakko and still have it work but the point would be that your 3 most productive vets would be supporting the growth of your 3 best prospects.

 

Having the kid line skate together on line 3 was a total player's coach vet-friendly head coach move.  *flash*  It's not working.

[Winter]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

 

I didn't say they were taken out of consensus, I said they're not dynamic, because they're not dynamic. Kakko is basically end-of-career Rick Nash, and Lafreniere is, I have no idea. I guess Owen Nolan, like @Dunny suggested. The Rangers just didn't get the luck they needed. They should have gotten Hughes, but didn't.

 

They got Yakupov'd. Twice.

If we got Hughes we'd be playing him on the 3rd-4th line, hell we'd of probably traded him for a 5th round pick by now, this is not a player issue, its an organizational one. People want to call offensive prospects busts who have never gotten steady offensive roles on the team lmao yikes. Bedard probably praying we dont start tanking so he isn't subject to the risk of being drafted by this prospect killing organization, considering he already has a risk of Arizona.