How Not to Rebuild: NYR Edition

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

Panarin wasn't Panarin until he was 25 in the NHL, and even then he was Panarin-lite as a point producer compared to what he turned into with the Rangers. At Lafreniere's age, he was only averaging a half pt a game in the KHL. Ironically, Kravtsov just did that and nobody cared. Point being we don't know who will turn into who.

 

It's not Panarin/Laf/Othmann vs Kreider/Laf/Othmann. It's Panarin/<ELC> vs Kreider/<$6M Player - Buchnevich-like object, or imagine Tarasenko becomes a possibility for a little extra if you will>.

 

Anyway, fun debate but I don't disagree that Kreider would more likely be the guy on the move first...just for other reasons (lesser trade protection, more bang for buck on market, easier cap hit for more teams to fit, etc).

Does anyone know who will be what? No, of course, but you can project and I do know that Lafreniere and Kreider can't do what Panarin does, so I'd move on from one of them to make room for Othmann before I move on from Panarin.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Argument in off season was you need Panarin to make playoffs so disappointing playoffs were worth over looking and not worth exploring trading him.

Well this season they might not make the playoffs and Panarin still doesn't look like the same player.

For me, this convo isn't prediacted in recency. I know Panarin isn't as bad as he's seemed this season the same as I knew Kreider wasn't as good as he seemed last season.

[fletch]

IMO, anyone argung for Kreider over Panarin is suffering from recency bias (career year outlier), loyalty bias (Kreider's long-term tenure), or warrior bias (Kreider's willingness to battle in front of the net).  Playmakers are so rare.  Ask the Wild why, even during in-game line shuffling, Zucc and Kaprizov are paired together.  Panarin's skillset is not replaceable by anyone on the roster.  Full stop.  The Kreider discussion reminds me so much about the Ryan Callahan discussion.

[RangersIn7]

16 hours ago, Pete said:

Does anyone know who will be what? No, of course, but you can project and I do know that Lafreniere and Kreider can't do what Panarin does, so I'd move on from one of them to make room for Othmann before I move on from Panarin.

I don’t like the idea, right now at least, of moving on from either of them. But it’s more palatable to me at least to do that to open space for another prospect. 

[jsm7302]

For what it is worth, Panarin is like the playmaking center from the wing. Zibby is like the scoring center. Both are integral pieces on this team. Kreider is a great guy it seems but at the end of the day, it appears Laf is going to replicate his career or at least trend that way. Kreider is replaceable by either Othmann or Laf next year.

 

I bet they will approach him to waive over the summer. How can they not? Otherwise it is like....Ok Chris, but you have to understand you will be dropping to the third line so we can develop the kids. He may bite. One helluva expensive third line,  Kreider-Trochek-Goodrow (about 15 mil tied up in third line duties!!!!)

[RJWantsTheCup]

I kinda like Lafraniere Trochek Othmann but that involves Othmann switching wings.

[RangersIn7]

29 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I kinda like Lafraniere Trochek Othmann but that involves Othmann switching wings.

Which most guys can’t do. 
It gets overlooked.

Some guys do fine on the off wing- Kane, Ovechkin, Panarin as examples.

But most guys can’t adjust fully to playing with their stick towards center as opposed to being able to play the puck up the boards on the forehand. Especially when you’ve done that since a very young age. 
And even when you do successfully transition to the off wing, you do lose a little something. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

And some guys prefer to play the off wing.  I always liked my stick towards the center of the rink better.  Can't say everybody can play the off wing and can't say everyone can. 

[RangersIn7]

9 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

And some guys prefer to play the off wing.  I always liked my stick towards the center of the rink better.  Can't say everybody can play the off wing and can't say everyone can. 

Yup

Totally agree. 

 

It seems to be a little more prevalent amongst the NA players vs the European and Russian guys.

[Sod16]

I always wonder why Panarin is never used on the off wing.  He's spinning around and likes using backhand passes anyway.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Sod16 said:

I always wonder why Panarin is never used on the off wing.  He's spinning around and likes using backhand passes anyway.

Do you mean on the PP? Because at ES he's exclusively on the off wing. On the PP, they want Zib off-wing for the one timer.

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, Sod16 said:

I always wonder why Panarin is never used on the off wing.  He's spinning around and likes using backhand passes anyway.

When guys are super skilled or possess a truly premium shot, it is advantageous to play them on the off wing…. See Bure, Mogilny, Ovechkin, Kane, Panarin, etc.

 

Thats why Panarin plays the LW as a RH shot. 

[Albatrosss]

2 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

When guys are super skilled or possess a truly premium shot, it is advantageous to play them on the off wing…. See Bure, Mogilny, Ovechkin, Kane, Panarin, etc.

 

Thats why Panarin plays the LW as a RH shot. 

because he cant make cross ice passes if he's on the RW

[RangersIn7]

58 minutes ago, CCCP said:

because he cant make cross ice passes if he's on the RW

Yeah… he’d qualify as super skilled

[josh]

Kreider should be moved the RW if Panarin and Lafreniere need too 6 minutes. The other two play a game based on skill and passing. Flipping a guy to the other side changes their perspective on teammates positioning and space.

Kreider is speed and muscle. He can skate and go to the net from either side of the ice. 

[Ozzy]

32 minutes ago, josh said:

Kreider should be moved the RW if Panarin and Lafreniere need too 6 minutes. The other two play a game based on skill and passing. Flipping a guy to the other side changes their perspective on teammates positioning and space.

Kreider is speed and muscle. He can skate and go to the net from either side of the ice. 

 

...Fucker should be more in front of the net as much as possible!!  LOL  But I'm hearing your point here Josh man.  Kreider, I would think would be the guy to make the adjustment. 

[Sod16]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Do you mean on the PP? Because at ES he's exclusively on the off wing. On the PP, they want Zib off-wing for the one timer.

Yeah, I was thinking his spot on the PP, where he does all of that backhand passing.  As has been discussed, they need a PP not organized around Zibs thundering (so often against the glass and boards) one timers.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Sod16 said:

Yeah, I was thinking his spot on the PP, where he does all of that backhand passing.  As has been discussed, they need a PP not organized around Zibs thundering (so often against the glass and boards) one timers.

I'm confused. Panarin is on the RW on the PP. That's where he does all his passing, on the forehand. 

[Albatrosss]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:06 PM, Pete said:

I'm confused. Panarin is on the RW on the PP. That's where he does all his passing, on the forehand. 

he's only there because they have to play Zib on the left side for the one-timer.  I dont think Panarin prefers the right side on the PP

[BrooksBurner]

35 minutes ago, CCCP said:

he's only there because they have to play Zib on the left side for the one-timer.  I dont think Panarin prefers the right side on the PP

Panarin hates RW, so it’s out of his comfort zone for sure

[Pete]

 

44 minutes ago, CCCP said:

he's only there because they have to play Zib on the left side for the one-timer.  I dont think Panarin prefers the right side on the PP

 

9 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Panarin hates RW, so it’s out of his comfort zone for sure

 

Yes, I understand that, I was responding to a comment about Panarin's "spot on the PP, where he does all of that backhand passing"...That doesn't happen.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

 

 

Yes, I understand that, I was responding to a comment about Panarin's "spot on the PP, where he does all of that backhand passing"...That doesn't happen.

[cupalife]

On 12/6/2022 at 1:42 PM, Pete said:

But Kreider can't do what Panarin does. Sorry, I've seen this team with a top scored of 60 points. Not here for it. Mika needs help.

 

Lafreniere can't do what Panarin does, but he can give you 60 points and 25 goals with PP time. Othmann can't do what Panarin does, but he can grow into what Kreider does.

 

It's not about value against the cap, Kreider is fairly paid, so is Panarin. it's about what can be done on the ice and I'm taking Panarin's skillset + Laf + Othmann over Kreider/Laf/Othmann.

 

I'm not willing to go back to being a team that has to work twice as hard as other teams to score.

Yes but the Rangers have gone to a team that works half as much as other teams in their own zone. Might be why this team has no structure or why they have a hard time playing 60 minutes.  

[cupalife]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:06 PM, CCCP said:

signing a new toy in Panarin is why we lost point-per-game Buchnevitch with a cap hit of $5.8 (and probably could've been even less with a longer term), why we cant sign/trade for a decent LD, why Othmann is blocked and will probably end up in Hartford next year, why our bottom 6 is shit, and many other problems.   Panarin is a flashier player but the team could be worse because of him.  Lets face the elephant in the room. 

Yup the elephant in the room.  Has been for awhile now

Edited December 12, 2022 by cupalife

[Pete]

24 minutes ago, cupalife said:

Yes but the Rangers have gone to a team that works half as much as other teams in their own zone. Might be why this team has no structure or why they have a hard time playing 60 minutes.  

Don't care. Defense can be taught, creativity can't.