2021 Offseason Thread: Fuck Around & Find Out!

[Phil]

It's not about the points. If it were, we'd be talking about Chytil's fantastic 3C year at a 43 point clip @ 21 y.o.

 

It's literally about the points. "Playing well," is mostly meaningless if you can't score, especially if your role is that high in the lineup. You can only ride unproductive but solid players in your top-six for so long.

 

Strome nearly doubles Chytil's P/GP. You can't sweep that under the rug no matter how hard you try.

[Phil]

Laf and Kakko both 13 points in their last 25 games averaging 13 minutes a game. That's after Kakko had 4 in the first 23, and Laf 8 in the first 31.

 

If my options are:

 

A) Laf and Kakko producing along side Zib, seeing 16+ minutes per night; or

B) Chytil being about to handle the matchups he'll get as the second line center.

 

I'm more concerned about option B.

 

Same.

[LindG1000]

Yes, but to expect the same level of production isn't realistic, because Kakko has seen stints with the best talent on the team and still hasn't put up points despite dramatically improving his performance this past season. I think that's rmc's general point. Kakko can hang as just a defensively responsible skater, but it's unrealistic to expect him to produce because he hasn't (yet).

 

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Kakko is going to blow the doors off next season to jump from a .35 ppg player (figure high 20s/82) to a .85 ppg player. But, it's perfectly realistic to see Kakko jumping from a 25 point player to, say, a 45-ish point player. If he gets the PP and PK time (which he has probably earned at this point, especially if Buchnevich is on the outs), I find that to be a reasonable jump to expect.

 

Kakko's a gamble if you're asking him to replace 2021 Buchnevich off the hop, but he is trending hard in the right direction.

[BrooksBurner]

Yes, but to expect the same level of production isn't realistic, because Kakko has seen stints with the best talent on the team and still hasn't put up points despite dramatically improving his performance this past season. I think that's rmc's general point. Kakko can hang as just a defensively responsible skater, but it's unrealistic to expect him to produce because he hasn't (yet).

 

Pretty much. Or to think it's a lock he will produce at all. There's more than a small chance he's a bust. The solution on the top 6 right side next year absolutely cannot be two kids who haven't proven or produced anything, especially when the new expectation around here is playoffs or bust.

[BrooksBurner]

It's literally about the points. "Playing well," is mostly meaningless if you can't score, especially if your role is that high in the lineup. You can only ride unproductive but solid players in your top-six for so long.

 

Strome nearly doubles Chytil's P/GP. You can't sweep that under the rug no matter how hard you try.

 

Of course he does. He gets PP time and a steady superstar linemate. Chytil gets a revolving door of linemates.

[Phil]

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Kakko is going to blow the doors off next season to jump from a .35 ppg player (figure high 20s/82) to a .85 ppg player. But, it's perfectly realistic to see Kakko jumping from a 25 point player to, say, a 45-ish point player. If he gets the PP and PK time (which he has probably earned at this point, especially if Buchnevich is on the outs), I find that to be a reasonable jump to expect.

 

Kakko's a gamble if you're asking him to replace 2021 Buchnevich off the hop, but he is trending hard in the right direction.

 

Yes, trending. It's still a lot of hope disguised as strategy, though, because we agree — the production is unlikely.

 

It's why I suggested moving Kreider to the right. Assuming no other changes:

 

Lafreniere / Zibanejad / Kreider

Panarin / Strome / Kakko

[LindG1000]

It's not about the points. If it were, we'd be talking about Chytil's fantastic 3C year at a 43 point clip @ 21 y.o.

 

I think it's about what's realistic and what we want.

 

Buchnevich and Chytil are simultaneously rising stars (in Buch's case, he's already there) due RFA deals.

 

Can Chytil handle 2c? Perhaps, but the question we need to answer is diversity at the center position. We have three centers that play almost the same offensive-minded fancy game, and that has to change.

 

The argument to trade Strome is much harder to make because Strome is Panarin's ride-or-die and Panarin is the franchise player. Those two have chemistry that would make Dmitri Mendeleev blush. Admittedly, that's a hard position - I think there are plenty of teams who would look at Strome and his contract right now and pay through the moon to get him - especially if they can negotiate an extension in the 5.5-6 range. It's even harder when you can see Chytil's potential in fits and spurts and feel like when he has the chance, he'll get there.

 

Zibanejad's not going anywhere unless the return is Mackinnon or Barkov. Lose that thought.

 

Chytil plays the wrong game for a 3c. He probably won't get the chance to punch up to Strome. He probably projects better as a wing on this team - which is problematic when there are 3 LWs unequivocally ahead of you on the depth chart. He's going to be a good player somewhere, but barring something falling out of the sky for Strome...it probably isn't here.

[LindG1000]

Yes, trending. It's still a lot of hope disguised as strategy, though, because we agree — the production is unlikely.

 

It's why I suggested moving Kreider to the right. Assuming no other changes:

 

Lafreniere / Zibanejad / Kreider

Panarin / Strome / Kakko

 

Yeah, that's probably fine. Kreider has to play the off-wing to extend his time here and make that contract worthwhile through 2024 at least.

 

I think it's unwise to bank on the production just coming out of nowhere, but I'm not going to put it out of the realm of possibility by any stretch. If there are two things we can say concretely about Kaapo Kakko at this point, it's that his numbers paint the picture of a player ready to break out and that when he's told what to do in the offseason, he takes it very, very seriously. Whether that work pays off and the breakout actually happens? That's to be determined.

[Long live the King]

Pretty much. Or to think it's a lock he will produce at all. There's more than a small chance he's a bust. The solution on the top 6 right side next year absolutely cannot be two kids who haven't proven or produced anything, especially when the new expectation around here is playoffs or bust.

 

Option A

 

Laf - Zib - Kakko

Panarin - Strome - Krav

 

Option B

 

Laf - Zib - Buch

Panarin - Chytil - Kakko

 

Again I'm more confident in option A. Chytil getting consistent match ups against guys like Krejci, Hayes, Trocheck, etc is way more unsettling than Kakko/Krav as the top 6 right wings.

[BrooksBurner]

Option A

 

Laf - Zib - Kakko

Panarin - Strome - Krav

 

Option B

 

Laf - Zib - Buch

Panarin - Chytil - Kakko

 

Again I'm more confident in option A. Chytil getting consistent match ups against guys like Krejci, Hayes, Trocheck, etc is way more unsettling than Kakko/Krav as the top 6 right wings.

 

I don't like either option, but of these two, option B looks better to me. I've got at least one experienced player at each position. I've got healthy competition between Kakko and Kravtsov for 2RW, without overbearing expectations and pressure on them. I've got space to sign a good veteran 3C to provide a backdrop for Chytil.

 

But for me, Strome and Chytil are both out on my roster next year.

 

Laf - Zib - Buch

Panarin - X - Kakko/Krav

Kreider - Y - Kravtsov

 

I'm getting better down the middle and keeping my depth on the wings.

[ThirtyONE]

Point production wise, you're not going to have a better 2C than Strome. You could find someone who can win face-offs, play defense, and be hard to play against, but you don't need to kill both Strome and Chytil to do that - and I'm not sure why you would.

 

Replace Chytil with Krecji or Getzlaf and you're set.

[BrooksBurner]

Point production wise, you're not going to have a better 2C than Strome. You could find someone who can win face-offs, play defense, and be hard to play against, but you don't need to kill both Strome and Chytil to do that - and I'm not sure why you would.

 

Replace Chytil with Krecji or Getzlaf and you're set.

 

That does nothing to address the top 6 though, which is where there is also a huge issue of being harder to play against. It's not isolated to the bottom 6.

[Phil]

Pretty much. Or to think it's a lock he will produce at all. There's more than a small chance he's a bust. The solution on the top 6 right side next year absolutely cannot be two kids who haven't proven or produced anything, especially when the new expectation around here is playoffs or bust.

 

Of course he does. He gets PP time and a steady superstar linemate. Chytil gets a revolving door of linemates.

 

Chytil is also more of the same. It's like Josh keeps saying — any combination of Zibanejad, Strome, Chytil up the middle as your top-nine centers is inherently flawed if you don't have real muscle to disperse on their wings. Again, Toronto. They go Matthews, Tavares, Riley Nash. Foligno and Hyman are both staples on the left side of their top-six. They've got the requisite muscle anywhere it's needed. The Rangers... just don't.

[ThirtyONE]

That does nothing to address the top 6 though, which is where there is also a huge issue of being harder to play against. It's not isolated to the bottom 6.

 

Top 6 doesn't need to be harder to play against so long as the bottom 6 is. The problem with the Rangers is that the bottom 6 is just a less and less skilled version of the top 6 the further down you go. Everyone plays the same exact game only to a lesser extent. The point of having different lines play different styles is that it creates match up problems for the other teams. So when the Islanders lock down the skilled players, the grinders/the guys that get dirty can wear out their D and either make something happen on their own, or create space for the skill players when they come back on the ice.

 

You don't need those guys on every line and you certainly don't need 3 of 4 centers being that kind of guy. Strome is effective. More effective than most 2Cs in the game. If the Rangers want to become harder to play against that comes by building up the bottom half of the lineup with guys who can potentially play up if the situation calls for it.

 

To me you're throwing the baby out with the bath water if your losing Strome and Chytil to bring in defensive grinders who are hard to play against. It's overkill.

[Phil]

Top 6 doesn't need to be harder to play against so long as the bottom 6 is. The problem with the Rangers is that the bottom 6 is just a less and less skilled version of the top 6 the further down you go. Everyone plays the same exact game only to a lesser extent. The point of having different lines play different styles is that it creates match up problems for the other teams. So when the Islanders lock down the skilled players, the grinders/the guys that get dirty can wear out their D and either make something happen on their own, or create space for the skill players when they come back on the ice.

 

You don't need those guys on every line and you certainly don't need 3 of 4 centers being that kind of guy. Strome is effective. More effective than most 2Cs in the game. If the Rangers want to become harder to play against that comes by building up the bottom half of the lineup.

 

Mostly right. Again, I'll keep coming back to them, because they're effectively built the same way the Rangers are. The Leafs. They've added extra muscle in their top-six that can hang, but they've effectively built an entire bottom-six capable of playing match-up/shutdown minutes. Those guys are, ideally, used in the D-zone to win draws, take possession, move up the ice, and establish O-zone set plays.

[josh]

Top 6 doesn't need to be harder to play against so long as the bottom 6 is. The problem with the Rangers is that the bottom 6 is just a less and less skilled version of the top 6 the further down you go. Everyone plays the same exact game only to a lesser extent. The point of having different lines play different styles is that it creates match up problems for the other teams. So when the Islanders lock down the skilled players, the grinders/the guys that get dirty can wear out their D and either make something happen on their own, or create space for the skill players when they come back on the ice.

 

You don't need those guys on every line and you certainly don't need 3 of 4 centers being that kind of guy. Strome is effective. More effective than most 2Cs in the game. If the Rangers want to become harder to play against that comes by building up the bottom half of the lineup with guys who can potentially play up if the situation calls for it.

 

Not true.

When Panarin wasn't scoring, that line was irrelevant.

When Zibanejad wasnt scoring, he... wasnt doing anything. If he's back to skating, and Kreider is back, then they're 'ok' but that's a lot of inconsistency.

 

The guys showing up in the playoffs are the guys that are still showing up, even if its being annoying, when they arent scoring.

[BrooksBurner]

Chytil is also more of the same. It's like Josh keeps saying — any combination of Zibanejad, Strome, Chytil up the middle as your top-nine centers is inherently flawed if you don't have real muscle to disperse on their wings. Again, Toronto. They go Matthews, Tavares, Riley Nash. Foligno and Hyman are both staples on the left side of their top-six. They've got the requisite muscle anywhere it's needed. The Rangers... just don't.

 

Don't disagree at all. I just choose to make the changes at center instead of wing for next year. Buch is feisty, plays all zones, any situation, etc. He checks a whole lot of boxes besides just producting. The idea needs to be getting away from one trick ponies. Strome and Chytil both fit that description. They suck at faceoffs. They can't PK, partially because they suck at faceoffs. They aren't very good defensively. I can checkmark a bunch of needed boxes the team needs by swapping those two out. On the flip side, if you take Buch out and slide 2 kids up, maybe sign a hardnosed 3RW, it doesn't solve the biggest issue. It's a bandaid and you lose a player who brings some of what you need more of.

[Gravesy]

I'm watching the playoffs and every so often I can't help but think that the Rangers, as currently constructed, have absolutely no business being there. They'd have their asses handed to them exactly like they did in the play-ins against the Canes. And I think that applies to the top 6 as well. Zibanejad, Strome, Buch, Kreider and even Panarin become pretty ineffective when the games gets tough, tightly checked and a grind. I agree that the biggest problem is a bottom six filled with slightly less talented skill players, but you definitely need a top 6 center, and probably a winger, than can ride in those situations and diversify the top of the lineup a bit.

I'd bet a lot of money that the KZB would be utterly ineffective in a series like Minny-Vegas, for example.

[Phil]

Don't disagree at all. I just choose to make the changes at center instead of wing for next year. Buch is feisty, plays all zones, any situation, etc. He checks a whole lot of boxes besides just producting. The idea needs to be getting away from one trick ponies. Strome and Chytil both fit that description. They suck at faceoffs. They can't PK, partially because they suck at faceoffs. They aren't very good defensively. I can checkmark a bunch of needed boxes the team needs by swapping those two out. On the flip side, if you take Buch out and slide 2 kids up, maybe sign a hardnosed 3RW, it doesn't solve the biggest issue. It's a bandaid and you lose a player who brings some of what you need more of.

 

Sure, so based on the fact they're so similar, what I look at is who gives the team more? The answer is Strome. The other question is, who gives you more in a trade? The answer is Chytil. All roads lead to the same result IMO.

[Long live the King]

I don't like either option, but of these two, option B looks better to me. I've got at least one experienced player at each position. I've got healthy competition between Kakko and Kravtsov for 2RW, without overbearing expectations and pressure on them. I've got space to sign a good veteran 3C to provide a backdrop for Chytil.

 

But for me, Strome and Chytil are both out on my roster next year.

 

Laf - Zib - Buch

Panarin - X - Kakko/Krav

Kreider - Y - Kravtsov

 

I'm getting better down the middle and keeping my depth on the wings.

 

If I'm hard pressed to make changes this summer...

 

Laf - Zib - Kakko

Panarin - Strome - Kravtsov

Kreider - Bozak - N. Foligno

[Phil]

I'm watching the playoffs and every so often I can't help but think that the Rangers, as currently constructed, have absolutely no business being there. They'd have their asses handed to them exactly like they did in the play-ins against the Canes. And I think that applies to the top 6 as well. Zibanejad, Strome, Buch, Kreider and even Panarin become pretty ineffective when the games gets tough, tightly checked and a grind. I agree that the biggest problem is a bottom six filled with slightly less talented skill players, but you definitely need a top 6 center, and probably a winger, than can ride in those situations and diversify the top of the lineup a bit.

I'd bet a lot of money that the KZB would be utterly ineffective in a series like Minny-Vegas, for example.

 

I don't agree. Kreider and Buchnevich can both play a more rugged game. But I do think Panarin, Strome, Kakko/Kravtsov would be utterly neutralized, every shift.

[Phil]

If I'm hard pressed to make changes this summer...

 

Laf - Zib - Kakko

Panarin - Strome - Kravtsov

Kreider - Bozak - N. Foligno

 

Foligno is a left wing. As are a bunch of the guys we've talked about. It's a huge problem so long as all three of Kreider, Lafreniere, and Kreider also remain on the left. Those three are arguably more nailed down long-term than the right side of Buch (RFA), Kakko, and Kravtsov. We almost certainly need to be looking at RW players who bring much of the same as Foligno, or have a serious conversation about moving Kreider to the right as part of the changes.

[josh]

I'm watching the playoffs and every so often I can't help but think that the Rangers, as currently constructed, have absolutely no business being there. They'd have their asses handed to them exactly like they did in the play-ins against the Canes. And I think that applies to the top 6 as well. Zibanejad, Strome, Buch, Kreider and even Panarin become pretty ineffective when the games gets tough, tightly checked and a grind. I agree that the biggest problem is a bottom six filled with slightly less talented skill players, but you definitely need a top 6 center, and probably a winger, than can ride in those situations and diversify the top of the lineup a bit.

I'd bet a lot of money that the KZB would be utterly ineffective in a series like Minny-Vegas, for example.

 

Well we cant go that far, you just admitted the top 2 lines will disappear. We can't expect Lemieuxs Howdens and Rooneys to score goals against Marchand and Bergeron

[Long live the King]

Foligno is a left wing. As are a bunch of the guys we've talked about. It's a huge problem so long as all three of Kreider, Lafreniere, and Kreider also remain on the left. Those three are arguably more nailed down long-term than the right side of Buch (RFA), Kakko, and Kravtsov. We almost certainly need to be looking at RW players who bring much of the same as Foligno, or have a serious conversation about moving Kreider to the right as part of the changes.

 

There's not much available at RW this summer, but if you're having a serious convo with Kreider about switching sides you could also ask that of Foligno. You're asking both of them to chance their role regardless. Foligno is a 40 point player, he's gonna make a lot less the the deal he signed in the middle of an anomaly 73 point season. But yes, the actual name doesn't matter, the point is to make a third line that has a heavy forecheck and is solid defensively.

[Phil]

There's not much available at RW this summer, but if you're having a serious convo with Kreider about switching sides you could also ask that of Foligno. You're asking both of them to chance their role regardless. Foligno is a 40 point player, he's gonna make a lot less the the deal he signed in the middle of an anomaly 73 point season. But yes, the actual name doesn't matter, the point is to make a third line that has a heavy forecheck and is solid defensively.

 

For sure, but I think there's a significant difference between asking a career LW who's never played a game with your team to switch sides and asking a guy who knows every player better than anyone to do the same. I think the experiment, if you do it, is a lot safer to try with Kreider than Foligno.