2021 Offseason Thread: Fuck Around & Find Out!

[ThirtyONE]

This is why, IMO, Buch will be part of a deal. The guy has really grown on me over the years and he will be missed but we've drafted so well that he's expendable at that price. Hopefully next year Kakko, Krav, or even a currently unknown piece can play top line minutes. They should also be siging a proper 4th liner who can PK, or try our best defensive forward (kakko) out there too.

[BrooksBurner]

Any argument made against signing Buch is doubly so with Strome, given Strome isn't very good at actually playing the center position. We already know we can't keep both. In fact, given the arguments against signing Buch, it sounds like the argument is we really can't keep either.

[LindG1000]

Any argument made against signing Buch is doubly so with Strome, given Strome isn't very good at actually playing the center position. We already know we can't keep both. In fact, given the arguments against signing Buch, it sounds like the argument is we really can't keep either.

 

Not sure I buy that.

 

With Buch - if you see him go, you're probably getting a center back. You can reasonably backfill to an extent with Kakko and Kravtsov, you can probably fuck with Chytil on the off-wing, you've got a couple of pluggy bottom-six wings coming up that could be your 3RW if those two are successful, and getting a wing in free agency if it comes to it feels realistic. You need to make this decision now.

 

With Strome - if you see him go, it's in UFA in all likelihood. Nobody we currently have is backfilling his spot unless Filip Chytil miracles himself into a real center, Morgan Barron is better than advertised, Brett Howden....I'll stop there. Centers who can play at the .85PPG level are near-impossible to find in UFA. You need to make this decision around the trade deadline in 2022.

 

If you're going to give one of these two players 6M a year, you're better off giving it to Strome. That said - as things stand it's probably ill-advised to give either of them term AND payout.

[BrooksBurner]

Not sure I buy that.

 

With Buch - if you see him go, you're probably getting a center back. You can reasonably backfill to an extent with Kakko and Kravtsov, you can probably fuck with Chytil on the off-wing, you've got a couple of pluggy bottom-six wings coming up that could be your 3RW if those two are successful, and getting a wing in free agency if it comes to it feels realistic. You need to make this decision now.

 

With Strome - if you see him go, it's in UFA in all likelihood. Nobody we currently have is backfilling his spot unless Filip Chytil miracles himself into a real center, Morgan Barron is better than advertised, Brett Howden....I'll stop there. Centers who can play at the .85PPG level are near-impossible to find in UFA. You need to make this decision around the trade deadline in 2022.

 

If you're going to give one of these two players 6M a year, you're better off giving it to Strome. That said - as things stand it's probably ill-advised to give either of them term AND payout.

 

The numbers suggest Chytil is a lot closer to taking over for Strome than Kakko or Kravtsov are for Buchnevich. I'm not sure where this narrative came from that we are better off with Kakko/Kravtsov filling the top 2 RW spots on the team is OK, but moving Chytil up to 2C is some outlandish idea that cannot be broached. Especially when Chytil has been the best producing prospect of the 3, and is basically the same age. I personally don't think it's a good idea to do either by the way, which is why they 1) need to keep Buchnevich unless Tkachuk is coming in, and 2) go for new 2C/3C combo who can actually play the position.

 

As far as playing the C position, Strome produces like a 2nd line player, but he isn't really any more of a center than Chytil is. The same arguments made against Chytil being a center ultimately apply to Strome. Can't win faceoffs, not very good defensively, soft, etc. Strome has better vision, Chytil has exhibited more of a shoot first mentality with more natural goal scoring ability. Chytil also uses his body more.

[The Dude]

Stop with this ridiculous extreme take. Literally nobody is arguing this.

 

 

 

Again, it's not Kakko. It's not Laf. It's not Kravtsov. It's that assuming we go get a center or two, we can't actually make the centers work beyond this season.

 

 

 

Sure, and this is not one of those situations, because you know what's worth more in a trade than a 28 year old UFA? A 26 year old RFA coming off a near point-per-game season. If your endgame is trade him, get your ass to endgame now, because he's literally never going to be a better trade asset than he is right this moment.

 

Lmao! I'm not planning to trade him. That's you. I'm signing him as insurance. You keep skipping over the possibility that one or two of these kids doesn't pan out. What do you do then? Free agency and overpay there? Why not play it safe?

 

You're deciding to not sign a guy who just had a breakout season. When the fuck do you deem it ok to sign ANYONE, if you want to move on from this player who is due for near market value? He's NOT getting over 5.5 million. I don't care what that site says. Weren't they claiming DeAngelo was to get upward of 7 million??

 

You've given no assurance to trade this guy, other than you want to pay Kakko, who has done Jack shit in 2 seasons. "We have to pay Kakko, we have to pay Kakko ".. For what? What's his next deal actually going to be? He'd have to put up Buchnevich of this past seasons numbers to warrant ANY big deal. I don't see that happening. Do you?

 

We're obviously not going to change one another's mind. I say keep him for insurance and trade Kravtsov or Kakko for what ever the big move is going be. You say deal him and roll the dice with these kids.

 

Obviously if it's a deal breaker where the other team requests Buchnevich, then yeah sure. I'm just not going into any deal with the thought that he has to go over anyone. I float the choice of one of the 3 with the thought of the kids carrying the most worth.

 

Sorry you disagree. Let's move on.

[Pete]

The numbers suggest Chytil is a lot closer to taking over for Strome than Kakko or Kravtsov are for Buchnevich. I'm not sure where this narrative came from that we are better off with Kakko/Kravtsov filling the top 2 RW spots on the team is OK, but moving Chytil up to 2C is some outlandish idea that cannot be broached. Especially when Chytil has been the best producing prospect of the 3, and is basically the same age. I personally don't think it's a good idea to do either by the way, which is why they 1) need to keep Buchnevich unless Tkachuk is coming in, and 2) go for new 2C/3C combo who can actually play the position.

 

As far as playing the C position, Strome produces like a 2nd line player, but he isn't really any more of a center than Chytil is. The same arguments made against Chytil being a center ultimately apply to Strome. Can't win faceoffs, not very good defensively, soft, etc. Strome has better vision, Chytil has exhibited more of a shoot first mentality with more natural goal scoring ability. Chytil also uses his body more.

Chytil is not at all close to taking over for Strome because strong knows how to play with good players, and Chytil is a pretty individualistic player. That's the knock on him as a center. He doesn't distribute or make anyone around him better. At least Strome knows where the puck should go when he has it.

 

I don't know when the war on Strome will end. It's more pointless than the war on drugs. All he's done is prove everybody wrong every step of the way on his Ranger career.

[The Dude]

Not sure I buy that.

 

With Buch - if you see him go, you're probably getting a center back. You can reasonably backfill to an extent with Kakko and Kravtsov, you can probably fuck with Chytil on the off-wing, you've got a couple of pluggy bottom-six wings coming up that could be your 3RW if those two are successful, and getting a wing in free agency if it comes to it feels realistic. You need to make this decision now.

 

With Strome - if you see him go, it's in UFA in all likelihood. Nobody we currently have is backfilling his spot unless Filip Chytil miracles himself into a real center, Morgan Barron is better than advertised, Brett Howden....I'll stop there. Centers who can play at the .85PPG level are near-impossible to find in UFA. You need to make this decision around the trade deadline in 2022.

 

If you're going to give one of these two players 6M a year, you're better off giving it to Strome. That said - as things stand it's probably ill-advised to give either of them term AND payout.

 

But isn't the point in dealing Buchnevich, to get a center? Such a center better be in the top tier mold and playing 1st or 2nd line. No? One of Zibanejad or Strome has to go to make any move make sense. Unless you move Zibanejad to the wing, which I've suggested a few times, with zero response.

 

Sucks we don't know what their game plan really is. There's a lot of possibilities.

[BrooksBurner]

Chytil is not at all close to taking over for Strome because strong knows how to play with good players, and Chytil is a pretty individualistic player. That's the knock on him as a center. He doesn't distribute or make anyone around him better. At least Strome knows where the puck should go when he has it.

 

I don't know when the war on Strome will end. It's more pointless than the war on drugs. All he's done is prove everybody wrong every step of the way on his Ranger career.

 

I didn't say that though. I said the gap between Strome and Chytil was less than the gap between Buchnevich and Kakko/Kravtsov. That's what the numbers support. Yet saying get rid of Strome and moving Chytil up is considered outlandish, but getting rid of Buchnevich and moving Kakko/Kravtsov up is not. It's very strange to me, especially because Buchnevich is both a career Ranger and a better overall player than Strome.

[Phil]

I didn't say that though. I said the gap between Strome and Chytil was less than the gap between Buchnevich and Kakko/Kravtsov. That's what the numbers support. Yet saying get rid of Strome and moving Chytil up is considered outlandish, but getting rid of Buchnevich and moving Kakko/Kravtsov up is not. It's very strange to me, especially because Buchnevich is both a career Ranger and a better overall player than Strome.

 

Agreed, but I think the solution is in-house. Move Kreider to the right.

[BrooksBurner]

Agreed, but I think the solution is in-house. Move Kreider to the right.

 

Interesting thought. I think the same idea was floated after we got the #1 pick last year. I guess the question is how comfortable is Kreider on the right?

[Phil]

Only one way to find out, but there's real value to it and getting his stick to center ice.

[LindG1000]

Lmao! I'm not planning to trade him. That's you. I'm signing him as insurance. You keep skipping over the possibility that one or two of these kids doesn't pan out. What do you do then? Free agency and overpay there? Why not play it safe?

 

You're deciding to not sign a guy who just had a breakout season. When the fuck do you deem it ok to sign ANYONE, if you want to move on from this player who is due for near market value? He's NOT getting over 5.5 million. I don't care what that site says. Weren't they claiming DeAngelo was to get upward of 7 million??

 

You've given no assurance to trade this guy, other than you want to pay Kakko, who has done Jack shit in 2 seasons. "We have to pay Kakko, we have to pay Kakko ".. For what? What's his next deal actually going to be? He'd have to put up Buchnevich of this past seasons numbers to warrant ANY big deal. I don't see that happening. Do you?

 

We're obviously not going to change one another's mind. I say keep him for insurance and trade Kravtsov or Kakko for what ever the big move is going be. You say deal him and roll the dice with these kids.

 

Obviously if it's a deal breaker where the other team requests Buchnevich, then yeah sure. I'm just not going into any deal with the thought that he has to go over anyone. I float the choice of one of the 3 with the thought of the kids carrying the most worth.

 

Sorry you disagree. Let's move on.

 

The point isn't to pay Kakko. I literally said that in the post you're quoting, so I don't get why you're just repeatedly ignoring the point I'm making to hammer on something NOBODY IS SAYING.

 

Even with Buchnevich at 5.5 million, it does not work. The problem is that you have too much tied up in him and Kreider to ever pay a center. One has an NMC and is coming off a decidedly average season. One is an RFA coming off a breakout season who likely wants term and money similar to Kreider - and can probably get that if he weren't an RFA. We need a center. It's all circumstance.

 

If you don't understand the math, and you're continuing to ignore the very obvious point here, there's nothing more to discuss. Your math doesn't work barring Kreider or Trouba vanishing off this roster.

 

But isn't the point in dealing Buchnevich, to get a center? Such a center better be in the top tier mold and playing 1st or 2nd line. No? One of Zibanejad or Strome has to go to make any move make sense. Unless you move Zibanejad to the wing, which I've suggested a few times, with zero response.

 

Sucks we don't know what their game plan really is. There's a lot of possibilities.

 

Strome goes if and only if you move for a big name center - and even then, why would you deal him now? He's a top 20 point producer at the position two years running with a bargain basement deal and you'd get to play him on the third line behind Zibanejad and whomever we acquire by trading Buchnevich? Aces. Sign me up.

 

Why in all holy hell would you move Zib to wing? I imagine he'd want to play left wing given his shooting style - are you playing him ahead of Panarin? Kreider? Lafreniere? Who's playing center? That's the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Pete]

I didn't say that though. I said the gap between Strome and Chytil was less than the gap between Buchnevich and Kakko/Kravtsov. That's what the numbers support. Yet saying get rid of Strome and moving Chytil up is considered outlandish, but getting rid of Buchnevich and moving Kakko/Kravtsov up is not. It's very strange to me, especially because Buchnevich is both a career Ranger and a better overall player than Strome.

Well your last sentence not only isn't true but has no bearing on anything. He's a career Ranger. So?

 

Your personal interpretation of the numbers, sure.

[LindG1000]

I didn't say that though. I said the gap between Strome and Chytil was less than the gap between Buchnevich and Kakko/Kravtsov. That's what the numbers support. Yet saying get rid of Strome and moving Chytil up is considered outlandish, but getting rid of Buchnevich and moving Kakko/Kravtsov up is not. It's very strange to me, especially because Buchnevich is both a career Ranger and a better overall player than Strome.

 

I think the problem is that almost nobody here thinks Chytil is a center, so when we talk about our 3c who shouldn't be a C moving up to 2c, it doesn't really compute. I also think a good chunk of us have accepted that Strome is actually a really strong player for us and that Chytil is likely to find himself on the trade block.

[josh]

Should have been seeing Lafreniere - Chytil - Buchnevich all season. We would have a better idea where all those guys would be at. Now, they're all question marks.

[BrooksBurner]

Should have been seeing Lafreniere - Chytil - Buchnevich all season. We would have a better idea where all those guys would be at. Now, they're all question marks.

 

If not ES time, at least get them PP time to see what happens. Exhibit A why Quinn is gone.

[BrooksBurner]

I think the problem is that almost nobody here thinks Chytil is a center, so when we talk about our 3c who shouldn't be a C moving up to 2c, it doesn't really compute. I also think a good chunk of us have accepted that Strome is actually a really strong player for us and that Chytil is likely to find himself on the trade block.

 

Again, Strome is a good player. Much better than I thought he'd be. But he still isn't good at center. At least Chytil is just a baby and could grow into it. Strome is what he is at this point in terms of playing the position.

 

I just haven't heard a good argument yet why Strome to Chytil is disastrous, yet Buch to Kakko/Kravtsov is not. Strome to Chytil you'd be replacing 1 guy who can't play center very well for another one. Production could very well be close for a much lower cost. It makes more sense to me than getting rid of Buch and all he brings to the team, which is simply more than Strome.

[Phil]

Again, Strome is a good player. Much better than I thought he'd be. But he still isn't good at center. At least Chytil is just a baby and could grow into it. Strome is what he is at this point in terms of playing the position.

 

I just haven't heard a good argument yet why Strome to Chytil is disastrous, yet Buch to Kakko/Kravtsov is not. Strome to Chytil you'd be replacing 1 guy who can't play center very well for another one. Production could very well be close for a much lower cost. It makes more sense to me than getting rid of Buch and all he brings to the team, which is simply more than Strome.

 

I've no idea how you can say this when he puts up back-to-back 0.85~ P/GP seasons playing... center.

 

A huge chunk of which was done not with Panarin.

[josh]

I think the issue is Zibanejad-Strome-Chytil isnt tough to play against, whatsoever.

[Phil]

I think the issue is Zibanejad-Strome-Chytil isnt tough to play against, whatsoever.

 

Sure, I don't disagree. Especially with only one genuinely tough player in the current makeup of their top-six (Kreider).

 

The Leafs, I think, did this the right way, which was to effectively construct a "hard to play against" third line of Mikheyev — Nash — Kerfoot. Then one each of Hyman/Foligno on the left side of both top-six lines.

[Long live the King]

Again, Strome is a good player. Much better than I thought he'd be. But he still isn't good at center. At least Chytil is just a baby and could grow into it. Strome is what he is at this point in terms of playing the position.

 

I just haven't heard a good argument yet why Strome to Chytil is disastrous, yet Buch to Kakko/Kravtsov is not. Strome to Chytil you'd be replacing 1 guy who can't play center very well for another one. Production could very well be close for a much lower cost. It makes more sense to me than getting rid of Buch and all he brings to the team, which is simply more than Strome.

 

The main argument is that Strome has done it consistently. He had 11 points in his first 35 Ranger games. Since then he has 130 points in 154 games (.828 ppg). Buch has had one season over .8 points per game and it came in a contract year.

 

I'm not against keeping Chytil as the 3C. He's still super young, but hasn't pushed Strome out of the way. Sucks he got hurt this year. Also regardless of weather or not Strome is a good center (completely disagree there), it's a lot easier for Kakko to step into the #1 RW spot, than it is for Chytil to step into the #2 C spot in terms of the responsibilities you're throwing at the young player.

 

As for Kakko pushing Buch, Kakko lead the team in CF% and FF%. Dominant puck possession.

 

 

https://twitter.com/vzmercogliano/status/1391801009916321793

 

He's a #2 pick, knows what he needs to work on, and has just passed 100 games. Not at all worried about Kakko producing if he's put on a line with Laf/Zib.

[Phil]

Yes, but to expect the same level of production isn't realistic, because Kakko has seen stints with the best talent on the team and still hasn't put up points despite dramatically improving his performance this past season. I think that's rmc's general point. Kakko can hang as just a defensively responsible skater, but it's unrealistic to expect him to produce because he hasn't (yet).

[BrooksBurner]

I've no idea how you can say this when he puts up back-to-back 0.85~ P/GP seasons playing... center.

 

A huge chunk of which was done not with Panarin.

 

It's not about the points. If it were, we'd be talking about Chytil's fantastic 3C year at a 43 point clip @ 21 y.o.

[Long live the King]

Yes, but to expect the same level of production isn't realistic, because Kakko has seen stints with the best talent on the team and still hasn't put up points despite dramatically improving his performance this past season. I think that's rmc's general point. Kakko can hang as just a defensively responsible skater, but it's unrealistic to expect him to produce because he hasn't (yet).

 

Laf and Kakko both 13 points in their last 25 games averaging 13 minutes a game. That's after Kakko had 4 in the first 23, and Laf 8 in the first 31.

 

If my options are:

 

A) Laf and Kakko producing along side Zib, seeing 16+ minutes per night; or

B) Chytil being able to handle the matchups he'll get as the second line center.

 

I'm more concerned about option B.

[Long live the King]

It's not about the points. If it were, we'd be talking about Chytil's fantastic 3C year at a 43 point clip @ 21 y.o.

 

Chytil is a victim of the need for a change of pace, defensive 3C. That said, I'm willing to give it another year to play out and see if he can over take Strome. Especially with a new coach coming in.

 

Edit: This whole thing can wait until next summer as long as Buch doesn't get trade protection in his new deal.