Henrik Lundqvist is the Greatest Ranger in History

[Keirik]

This thread should be entitled "Henrik is the greatest Ranger goaltender in history", not the greatest Ranger in history.

 

There has never, nor will there ever be another #11.

 

Sorry guys, not even close.

 

Yeah, he was awesome here, but he’s an Oiler first, Ranger second. Think we were thinking a bit more of players that are actually Rangers For most of their careers, drafted by us.

[Bugg]

He had a positive W/L between 2011 and 2015, when he posted the unreal post season numbers I'm referring to.

 

Also, valuing goaltenders on W/L is just something I'm not particularly a fan of.

 

Grant you it's not entirely fair. A goalie isn't responsible if the team in front of him cannot score or doesn't play defense effectively.Or if a coach doesn't get Marian Gaborik's game, or Rick Nash or Brad Richards go dead.

 

One more HoF goalie's record is interesting in this regard: Billy Smith, postseason record of 81-36. Gretzky said he was the best goalie he ever faced. Smith is not viewed as a technician, and had a nasty streak which simply would not be tolerated (nor needed) today. Despite being part of a team the '79 NYR upset to get into the Finals, after that Smith had a very big hand in blocking some decent early 1980s NYR clubs in the playoffs on his way to 4 straight Cups. In the playoffs, he had a knack for giving up 1 less goal that the other guy.That's not something to be dismissed. And sadly based on Lundqvist's postseason record, it wasn't #30's forte.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/smithbi01.html

[Ozzy]

I had the pleasure of watching Rod Gilbert, and Jean Ratelle. Those guys were damn good Rangers as well. MSG LOVED Gilbert. He was our first retired number for a reason. That team should have won a cup, and I think that's why he gets left off that "list". But that's how I got started watching the Rangers back in 1971.

 

Hatfield, Gilbert, Ratelle, Brad Park, Billy Fairbairn, Walter Tkaczuk, Eddie Giacomin...those guys were my heroes when I was a little kid. ;)

[Sharpshooter]

I'm really hoping Laf becomes a Gilbert-like offensive player. I think Rod was the last really good offensive forward this team developed. By really good, I mean super elite, Hall of Fame type talent. Having Zib and Panarin is great, but it would be nice to see this organization finally develop some top notch forwards. I think it's been this franchise's main bugaboo. You've been a fan a lot longer than I have, so you can probably attest to that.

[Ozzy]

I'm really hoping Laf becomes a Gilbert-like offensive player. I think Rod was the last really good offensive forward this team developed. By really good, I mean super elite, Hall of Fame type talent. Having Zib and Panarin is great, but it would be nice to see this organization finally develop some top notch forwards. I think it's been this franchise's main bugaboo. You've been a fan a lot longer than I have, so you can probably attest to that.

 

Unfortunately I'm starting to realize how old I AM!!! :rofl:

 

I'd like to see them exhibit more patience with their young players, rather than trade them away for "win now" types. We're no where near "win now" and I would rather see the young guys mature rather than trade them away only to watch them become stars on other teams, and win cups for them. A couple players come to mind when the word "PATIENCE" comes up:

 

Rick Middleton

Mike Ridley

Kelly Miller

Ryan Graves

Ulf Dahlen

Dave Gagner

 

Hopefully we have learned from our past! ;)

 

JD saw pretty much all of these, either as a player, broadcaster or now GM on other teams. I trust him to captain this ship moving forward!

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

Grant you it's not entirely fair. A goalie isn't responsible if the team in front of him cannot score or doesn't play defense effectively.Or if a coach doesn't get Marian Gaborik's game, or Rick Nash or Brad Richards go dead.

 

One more HoF goalie's record is interesting in this regard: Billy Smith, postseason record of 81-36. Gretzky said he was the best goalie he ever faced. Smith is not viewed as a technician, and had a nasty streak which simply would not be tolerated (nor needed) today. Despite being part of a team the '79 NYR upset to get into the Finals, after that Smith had a very big hand in blocking some decent early 1980s NYR clubs in the playoffs on his way to 4 straight Cups. In the playoffs, he had a knack for giving up 1 less goal that the other guy.That's not something to be dismissed. And sadly based on Lundqvist's postseason record, it wasn't #30's forte.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/smithbi01.html

 

You're comparing a goalie from the 70's and 80's to a player today and like... come on. I don't think I need to get into how absurd that is.

[Bugg]

You're comparing a goalie from the 70's and 80's to a player today and like... come on. I don't think I need to get into how absurd that is.

 

Talking 1950s or 1960s, might agree with you. The game has changed. The players are way better conditioned, better equipped and much faster. You rarely see player take long shift. Even without the trap it's a much more defensively oriented game.

 

But being a goalie between now and the 1980s isn't all that different, except running the goalie was a nightly occurrence then. And you had Cam Neely or Brendan Shanahan or some other huge guy with hands camped in front of you. Think while it's not perfect Smith, Dyrden, Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour, Roy, Vanbiesbrouck, Ron Hextall, Fuhr, among other from that era, compare favorably. Smith, because he was a short bald angry drunk might not fit the mold, but think the comparison is fair.

[Sod16]

Ulf Dahlen

 

We got more out of Mike Gartner than anybody got out of Ulf Dahlen.

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

Talking 1950s or 1960s, might agree with you. The game has changed. The players are way better conditioned, better equipped and much faster. You rarely see player take long shift. Even without the trap it's a much more defensively oriented game.

 

But being a goalie between now and the 1980s isn't all that different, except running the goalie was a nightly occurrence then. And you had Cam Neely or Brendan Shanahan or some other huge guy with hands camped in front of you. Think while it's not perfect Smith, Dyrden, Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour, Roy, Vanbiesbrouck, Ron Hextall, Fuhr, among other from that era, compare favorably. Smith, because he was a short bald angry drunk might not fit the mold, but think the comparison is fair.

 

Okay, so I'm sorry to say that you just couldn't be more wrong here.

 

1. Goaltending coaches did not exist

2. the current style of hybrid butterfly goaltending did not exist

3. rebound control as a key factor in negating plays and turning the puck back up ice did not exist

4. players were shooting the puck with a wooden stick, and while slap shots were similar on the high end mph wise, wrist shots just did not exist in the same way. The easy to create a snapshot now is just unparalleled.

5. goaltender screens did not exist in the same way they do now

6. the game now is played at such an incredible pace it is almost night and day

 

The long and short: if you plopped a goaltender from the 80's who was not Roy, they probably aren't NHL'ers. Goaltenders from the 90's are more comparable, however again, the same thing that was true of the 80's is also true for much of the 90's in the list above. The game is so radically different, it's not remotely comparable. Ask Richter if he would've liked to have someone like Benoit Allaire helping him. I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty, he would.

[Bugg]

Okay, so I'm sorry to say that you just couldn't be more wrong here.

 

1. Goaltending coaches did not exist There were some, but not many.

2. the current style of hybrid butterfly goaltending did not exist Mike Liut and host of others disagree. What is true is short little guys like Smith and Darren Pang would be have a hard time getting a shot at the NHL by sight of scouts and GMs. A bigger goalie is always going to be seen as a better. But Smith, again, stopped the puck

3. rebound control as a key factor in negating plays and turning the puck back up ice did not exist Admittedly this is a change, but by the same token freezing the puck created way more faceoffs and shots off faceoffs.

4. players were shooting the puck with a wooden stick, and while slap shots were similar on the high end mph wise, wrist shots just did not exist in the same way. The easy to create a snapshot now is just unparalleled. There were composite materials and metals components in sticks as early as the 1980s; heck, we were lowlife roller hockey and beer league guys, and we had them.The tech has improved. But not nearly as radical as you contend. al McInnis was hitting over 110 mph back then,

5. goaltender screens did not exist in the same way they do now. Completely disagree. Before the lockout and the change on freezing rules and the redline being taken out, the whole game was getting a big guy in front of the goalie, and getting 2 , even better, while the other forward went into the corner to get the puck. You had defensemen taking blasts in hopes of a greasy rebound or a deflection. And your defensemen using any means available to clear the front of the net to give the goalie a better view. Recall Nick Fotiu muttering after the 2014 Finals how Rick Nash was the cleanest goal scorer her had ever seen, meaning he wasn't beat to hell from trying to stay in front of the goalie all night

6. the game now is played at such an incredible pace it is almost night and day True and fair.

 

The long and short: if you plopped a goaltender from the 80's who was not Roy, they probably aren't NHL'ers. Goaltenders from the 90's are more comparable, however again, the same thing that was true of the 80's is also true for much of the 90's in the list above. The game is so radically different, it's not remotely comparable. Ask Richter if he would've liked to have someone like Benoit Allaire helping him. I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty, he would.

Coaching certainly helps. But disagree on the larger point; Lundqvist overall in the playoffs was often outplayed by the guy at the other end; Craig Anderson, Ben Bishop, Jonathan Quick, Brodeur. if you're gonna say he was so great, than when it really mattered in the playoffs he should have been the superior guy. In the postseason he was often second best. Still comes down to stopping the puck. Think you are unduly complicating things; don't think it's as radically different. But agree to disagree.

[Drew a Penalty]

Coaching certainly helps. But disagree on the larger point; Lundqvist overall in the playoffs was often outplayed by the guy at the other end; Craig Anderson, Ben Bishop, Jonathan Quick, Brodeur. if you're gonna say he was so great, than when it really mattered in the playoffs he should have been the superior guy. In the postseason he was often second best. Still comes down to stopping the puck. Think you are unduly complicating things; don't think it's as radically different. But agree to disagree.

 

This is just wrong. Want to know how easily you can prove it's wrong? Lundqvist's postseason GAA from 2011-12 — 2014-15 was 2.05. The Rangers GF/GP was 2.34. Lundqvist played all 76 games in that span. His teams flat out couldn't score enough.

[tphilly5]

Maybe it is an age of poster thing? The argument seems to be that Hank was the face of the franchise for over a decade and had an incredible 4 year run in the playoffs where unfortunately the Rangers did not win a Cup. Sorry but that does not come close to what Leetch accomplished and that includes official league accolades.

 

If you are going to talk about a GOAT you need to be able to compare generations relative to the people they played against and what they accomplished.

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

Maybe it is an age of poster thing? The argument seems to be that Hank was the face of the franchise for over a decade and had an incredible 4 year run in the playoffs where unfortunately the Rangers did not win a Cup. Sorry but that does not come close to what Leetch accomplished and that includes official league accolades.

 

If you are going to talk about a GOAT you need to be able to compare generations relative to the people they played against and what they accomplished.

 

Leetch won a cup early in his career on the backs of an old Edmonton dynasty and then never got close to that level again, playing on some of the worst rangers teams in modern history. So tell me why that makes him better than a guy who literally willed a franchise for 10 years?

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

Coaching certainly helps. But disagree on the larger point; Lundqvist overall in the playoffs was often outplayed by the guy at the other end; Craig Anderson, Ben Bishop, Jonathan Quick, Brodeur. if you're gonna say he was so great, than when it really mattered in the playoffs he should have been the superior guy. In the postseason he was often second best. Still comes down to stopping the puck. Think you are unduly complicating things; don't think it's as radically different. But agree to disagree.

 

I think you’re all over the place lmao.

[Bugg]

I think you’re all over the place lmao.

 

Leetch, injured the whole of the 1994 playoffs, was epic.

 

Can you point to the season when Lundqvist did that? Grant you there are things beyond the control of any goalie. But when it mattered that didn't happen.

 

Again, agree to disagree. Stopping the puck is still stopping the puck, no matter the different eras. And the 1980s is not nearly the dark ages you think it was.

 

And if Lundqvist signs with the Caps, fuck him.

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

Leetch, injured the whole of the 1994 playoffs, was epic.

 

Can you point to the season when Lundqvist did that? Grant you there are things beyond the control of any goalie. But when it mattered that didn't happen.

 

Again, agree to disagree. Stopping the puck is still stopping the puck, no matter the different eras. And the 1980s is not nearly the dark ages you think it was.

 

And if Lundqvist signs with the Caps, fuck him.

 

If the 80?s aren?t wildly different to now, why do goalies play entirely different in the net? Like dude I hate playing this card but you clearly do not play the game or have any personal understanding of how this game works beyond casual viewership. Like please ask anyone who has been involved with hockey at a high level for 20 years how different the sport is now compared to the 80?s. I can?t fathom where you get this notion but it?s simply wrong.

[Pete]

Leetch won a cup early in his career on the backs of an old Edmonton dynasty and then never got close to that level again, playing on some of the worst rangers teams in modern history. So tell me why that makes him better than a guy who literally willed a franchise for 10 years?

I mean... I agree with your point overall but Leetch won a Conn Smythe, hard to say the Cup was won on the backs of others.

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

I mean... I agree with your point overall but Leetch won a Conn Smythe, hard to say the Cup was won on the backs of others.

 

Yeah, I was being a dick, but this argument is infuriating to say the least lol.

[Bugg]

If the 80’s aren’t wildly different to now, why do goalies play entirely different in the net? Like dude I hate playing this card but you clearly do not play the game or have any personal understanding of how this game works beyond casual viewership. Like please ask anyone who has been involved with hockey at a high level for 20 years how different the sport is now compared to the 80’s. I can’t fathom where you get this notion but it’s simply wrong.

 

The US developmental/national team calls the goalie butterfly drill the "Barrasso Drill". Barrasso broke into the NHL in 1983/84. So the butterfly was nothing new. It goes way back.

 

Grant anything and everything you can say about equipment improvements, conditioning, coaching, speed of the game, but you make it sound like the guys were wearing figure skates, drinking whiskey between periods and had flat faced old time wood sticks. The big changes were post lockout enforcement of stick fouls, taking out the red line (ergo, the stretch passes) the end of freezing the puck and endless faceoffs. Pre and post lockouts present different challenges for a goalie but not that different; it still comes down to stopping shots.

 

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0042/0173/Barrasso.pdf

 

Leetch's stats which compare comfortably with some of the best who ever played his position. If you think he was carried by anyone in 1994, well,

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/leetcbr01.html

 

Lundqvist compares closest to Roberto Luongo-very good, but not one of the best ever at his position. If either gets into the HoF, the other should go in at the same time. It's like a mirror, right down to AV being a pussy in a Finals.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lundqhe01.html

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

The US developmental/national team calls the goalie butterfly drill the "Barrasso Drill". Barrasso broke into the NHL in 1983/84. So the butterfly was nothing new. It goes way back.

 

Grant anything and everything you can say about equipment improvements, conditioning, coaching, speed of the game, but you make it sound like the guys were wearing figure skates, drinking whiskey between periods and had flat faced old time wood sticks. The big changes were post lockout enforcement of stick fouls, taking out the red line (ergo, the stretch passes) the end of freezing the puck and endless faceoffs. Pre and post lockouts present different challenges for a goalie but not that different; it still comes down to stopping shots.

 

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0042/0173/Barrasso.pdf

 

Leetch's stats which compare comfortably with some of the best who ever played his position. If you think he was carried by anyone in 1994, well,

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/leetcbr01.html

 

Lundqvist compares closest to Roberto Luongo-very good, but not one of the best ever at his position. If either gets into the HoF, the other should go in at the same time. It's like a mirror, right down to AV being a pussy in a Finals.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lundqhe01.html

 

Except that Lundqvist has done it in 160 less games... but yeah no totally the same.

 

As for the Barasso drill, it?s a drill for a specific action, not the entirety of goaltending and how the game is played. You have to understand that. The butterfly goalie doesn?t exist anymore for the most part. It?s a hybrid.

 

And if you don?t see the difference in eras I don?t know what to tell you. It?s night and day, and this isn?t like a passive statement, it?s a fact lol.

[SaveByRichter35]

HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE Richter fanboy here. I have no doubt that Hank is the best Rangers goalie ever. Its really not even that close if you ask me. As far as best Ranger ever? I don't know. I am 37 so I was lucky enough to watch both players. I will digress to the whole 1A/1B argument with him and Leetch. I think its safe to say that Leetch will likely have the more decorated career as far as personal accolades go. I think Hank had more of an effect on ice though, as mentioned, he literally threw some mediocre teams on his shoulders and willed them to victories that sometimes wasn't deserved. Leetch played on some stacked teams that just didn't do very well. It is certainly an interesting argument.

[Phil]

Bump.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Pete]

Hank and it ain't close.

[Dunny]

Why, did Brian Leetch stop existing, or something?

[Dunny]

Lundqvist: Vezina x1

Leetch: Calder, Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe, Norris x2.