Fireside Chat - The Jacob Trouba Edition

[LindG1000]

Let's chat about a fun little series of realities...

 

Jacob Trouba has missed five games so far this season. In those games, the Rangers have given up four goals, tallying wins against Ottawa, Colorado, St. Louis (shutout), the Devils, and the Hurricanes (shutout). 

 

In recent games, it's been obvious that Miller-Schneider is a very strong pairing, whereas Miller-Trouba has been, to put it mildly, a red hot mess.

 

Trouba's absences co-occurring with Miller's best games and Schneider's ascension is a small sample size right now, but by the time Trouba's back, we'll have 10+ games of information to work with.

 

So far, the early returns seem to be screaming that Braden Schneider is ready for much more responsibility, and Jacob Trouba might not be the best partner for K'Andre Miller. 

 

Is it time to talk about flipping Trouba and Schneider more permanently?

 

[Br4d]

Trouba was important for Miller as he was breaking into the NHL and establishing himself.  MIller's a big guy but not physical and Trouba filled that gap really well.

 

Schneider is a big guy also and he's physical.  He's a great partner for Miller.

[Ozzy]

I'm just gonna say this:

 

We can do a whole fucking hell of a lot with $8 million.  Trouba's been better this year than in the past, but it may be time to think there may be a less expensive solution.  Gudas is pretty much the same player, only a couple years older at $4 million

Edit:  I'm referring to over the summer here...

Edited March 13 by Ozzy

[Pete]

This conversation is almost like deja vu...

 

They are both better away from each other, say the fancy stats. I'd at least try a few variations.

 

Based on small sample size data, these seem to be the most solid, analytically.
Miller Fox

Lindgren Schneider

Gus Trouba

 

This would be the easiest, least amount of change.

Lindgren Fox

Miller Schneider

Gus Trouba

 

What's really clear is that Trouba is just a mediocre defensive player. He plays an old school game that worked when guys like GIrardi were still in the league, but the game has passed that by. It's not about big hits and blocked shots. Big hits are nice and can change momentum, they have their place, but what about the other 99.999% of the game?

 

I'd certainly look to limit Trouba's minutes. That said, I doubt Lavvy does anything other than put Trouba right back where he was with Miller and the same deployment as before he got hurt. It's a tough decision to pull back your captain that way. You have to balance the temperament of the player with the impact to the team.

[Br4d]

Due to the length of the injury recovery (2 to 3 weeks) Laviolette has some real options when Trouba returns.

 

It's not hard to put him on 3rd pairing with Gus to let him get his wheels back under him with less pressure.  Do this for a few games and we're in the playoff window.  Then just do what seems right for the playoffs.  If Miller and Schneider have been prospering for a month you just let it roll into the playoffs.

 

Miller has looked pretty good the last few games and Schneider has stepped up as he always does when needed.  He's going to be a second pair guy for the Rangers for a long time.

[Ozzy]

I wanna see RuhWeedle!

[Albatrosss]

i was thinking the same thing last night.  As much as i shit on Miller, he looked really good last couple of games with Schneider.

And Schneider really stepped up.  Kid looks steady

[BrooksBurner]

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I wanna see RuhWeedle!

 

[Ozzy]

I know this slipped my attention too, but Let's give a little shout out to Zac, who has stepped in and played REALLY well in Trouba's absence.

 

Seriously...the kid's looking like the heir apparent for when Gus packs his shit to sign as UFA next season.  And I'm cool with that!

Edited March 13 by Ozzy

[RodrigueGabriel]

46 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I know this slipped my attention too, but Let's give a little shout out to Zac, who has stepped in and played REALLY well in Trouba's absence.

 

Seriously...the kid's looking like the heir apparent for when Gus packs his shit to sign as UFA next season.  And I'm cool with that!

Yeah. Put Trouba on Super Special Important Detail to continue to train Zac Jones. If that requires that he must play 3rd pair minutes, so be it.

[RangersIn7]

49 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I know this slipped my attention too, but Let's give a little shout out to Zac, who has stepped in and played REALLY well in Trouba's absence.

 

Seriously...the kid's looking like the heir apparent for when Gus packs his shit to sign as UFA next season.  And I'm cool with that!

He’s only gotten to play 5 games in the last 6-7 weeks.

 

In those 5 games… he’s got a goal and 2 assists… and he’s a +6

 

Hes looked very good. 

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

He’s only gotten to play 5 games in the last 6-7 weeks.

 

In those 5 games… he’s got a goal and 2 assists… and he’s a +6

 

Hes looked very good. 

 

I didn't know the stats 7, but he's been passing the "eye-test" in spades.

[RangersIn7]

52 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

I didn't know the stats 7, but he's been passing the "eye-test" in spades.

Yes. He has.

Really seems as though he’s developed into an NHL D.

Perhaps being up in the NHL so much this year and getting actual coaching has made the difference.

 

 

[Ozzy]

6 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yes. He has.

Really seems as though he’s developed into an NHL D.

Perhaps being up in the NHL so much this year and getting actual coaching has made the difference.

 

 

 

Here we go!!  Right there!!!  The Lavvy effect:  "Before this you were just a draft pick!" 

[deejaid]

I would love to see Schneider and Miller stay as a pair, they have looked really good together.

 

Trouba has two more years on his contract after this one.  Got to figure Schneider gets a 2-year bridge deal this summer, then gets a long term deal once Trouba is off the books.

 

 

As for Jones, he has looked great.  His vision and decision making have really improved.  Damn shame the kid doesn't have the size.

[delneggs]

Having Trouba these past few years has done several things that benefit the Rangers, not least of which was giving them a physical presence on the ice they did not have before he arrived.  People get all excited about Rempe and what he brings to the team, well that was Trouba 4 years ago when he came to one of the softest teams in the league.  That can't be overlooked.  

 

He also brought leadership and accountability to the room that did not have much. When he speaks his team listens, even the long term vets, and when he plays a physical game, they respond. 

 

He has been a mentor for all the young D, not just K'Andre, who he has been great for.  Schneider is learning from him WITHOUT the pressure of having to be the 24 minute a night guy yet, which he will become partially because of having Trouba around. 

 

Trouba blocks tons of shots, hands out lots of hits, some of them highlight reel good, and always  stands up for himself and his teammates. He is an old school hockey player. 

 

Is he overpaid at $8 million?  Maybe, but how do you value the intangibles he brings to the team that no one else can?  10 fans will give you 10 different answers.  And I bet a team like the Devils or Sabres, that have young, smallish players would be more than happy to have Trouba at his current cost.  Fans get so wrapped up in what a guy is paid that they sometimes forget all he does for a team, especially the kind of stuff that doesn't show up on a stat sheet. 

 

For me, I'm happy the Rangers signed Trouba and think without him these past few years they are not nearly as good a team as they are right now, and it's partially because of him our young defenders are developing so well.  There will come a time for him to move on, probably when his deal is up and Schneider is fully ready to be the 24 minute a night guy. Until then, I'm just going to appreciate what he brings to the team every game he plays.   

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, delneggs said:

Having Trouba these past few years has done several things that benefit the Rangers, not least of which was giving them a physical presence on the ice they did not have before he arrived.  People get all excited about Rempe and what he brings to the team, well that was Trouba 4 years ago when he came to one of the softest teams in the league.  That can't be overlooked.  

 

He also brought leadership and accountability to the room that did not have much. When he speaks his team listens, even the long term vets, and when he plays a physical game, they respond. 

 

He has been a mentor for all the young D, not just K'Andre, who he has been great for.  Schneider is learning from him WITHOUT the pressure of having to be the 24 minute a night guy yet, which he will become partially because of having Trouba around. 

 

Trouba blocks tons of shots, hands out lots of hits, some of them highlight reel good, and always  stands up for himself and his teammates. He is an old school hockey player. 

 

Is he overpaid at $8 million?  Maybe, but how do you value the intangibles he brings to the team that no one else can?  10 fans will give you 10 different answers.  And I bet a team like the Devils or Sabres, that have young, smallish players would be more than happy to have Trouba at his current cost.  Fans get so wrapped up in what a guy is paid that they sometimes forget all he does for a team, especially the kind of stuff that doesn't show up on a stat sheet. 

 

For me, I'm happy the Rangers signed Trouba and think without him these past few years they are not nearly as good a team as they are right now, and it's partially because of him our young defenders are developing so well.  There will come a time for him to move on, probably when his deal is up and Schneider is fully ready to be the 24 minute a night guy. Until then, I'm just going to appreciate what he brings to the team every game he plays.   

A lot of this isn't wrong, but at the end of the day it's a performance-based capped league.

 

His cap hit is very much outsized vs what he brings on the ice. 

 

That said, he's not a great defender and he's even worse with Miller. If  they should be split up and I think you'd see better results from both of them. 

[Keirik]

There might be a bit of the backup syndrome how a team pulls together when an important piece is missing and sticks to basics. However, there definitely is something to the keeping Miller and Trouba apart. They are painful together and every playoff game away will likely have the opposition coach try to have his top line out when Trouba and Miller are out there. Lets hope Laviolette has the gusto to separate them which likely would mean your captain as a d3 pairing. Pretty ballsy thing to do really. 

 

I wouldn't really care for Gus with Trouba though. Jones is a bit more mobile but a bit inexperienced for lack of a better word. Ruhweidle is an RD I believe so that doesn't work either? 

[siddious]

Funny thing is I think this is Troubas best year with the Rangers so far

[delneggs]

25 minutes ago, Pete said:

A lot of this isn't wrong, but at the end of the day it's a performance-based capped league.

 

His cap hit is very much outsized vs what he brings on the ice. 

 

That said, he's not a great defender and he's even worse with Miller. If  they should be split up and I think you'd see better results from both of them. 

I agree it's a performance based capped league, but does that mean there is no consideration given to intangibles such as leadership and mentoring and protecting younger players?  I think there is.  I don't think there is any way Nick Foligno is worth $4.5m/year based on his "performance" on the ice, but his leadership, mentoring and protecting a kid like Bedard is worth a lot to the Hawks.  That is where I think Trouba is undervalued by a lot of fans.  But as I also said, 10 fans will have 10 different ideas about how to judge a players value, so you're just as entitled to think he is overpaid.     

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, delneggs said:

I agree it's a performance based capped league, but does that mean there is no consideration given to intangibles such as leadership and mentoring and protecting younger players?  I think there is.  I don't think there is any way Nick Foligno is worth $4.5m/year based on his "performance" on the ice, but his leadership, mentoring and protecting a kid like Bedard is worth a lot to the Hawks.  That is where I think Trouba is undervalued by a lot of fans.  But as I also said, 10 fans will have 10 different ideas about how to judge a players value, so you're just as entitled to think he is overpaid.     

I agree, the intangibles are in the eye of the beholder. We'll see how much the Rangers value it when his trade protection lifts and when his deal is up. 

 

FWIW, the Blackhawks are paying that much for Foligno because they're young and need mentorship but also being young means your payroll is low. They are nowhere near the cap so they paid a premium for it. The Rangers aren't in that position. 

 

Edit: I actually just checked his stats and he's probably going to hit 45 points, at what he's paid that's actually pretty fair. 

Edited March 14 by Pete

[The Dude]

Miller hasn't looked this good in months. Still not there offensively and still making some questionable passes in his own end, but he's definitely on the ups. Schneider is just really good when he gets the opportunity. 

 

Hopefully the organization sees that he's (Schneider) gotta stay and they don't even think of moving him in the offseason for any needs. Guy is damn good all around.  

Edited March 14 by The Dude

[BrooksBurner]

 

I think I'm going to credit this win streak w/o Trouba to our top pair playing out of their mind, the Zibanejad line playing like a 1st line in addition to the Panarin line playing like a 1st line, and of course Igor Shesterkin. And Rempe's impact. My goodness Rempe's impact. What a mon-star.

 

Basically, the team's best players have been their best players.

Edited March 14 by BrooksBurner

[RangersIn7]

3 hours ago, deejaid said:

I would love to see Schneider and Miller stay as a pair, they have looked really good together.

 

Trouba has two more years on his contract after this one.  Got to figure Schneider gets a 2-year bridge deal this summer, then gets a long term deal once Trouba is off the books.

 

 

As for Jones, he has looked great.  His vision and decision making have really improved.  Damn shame the kid doesn't have the size.

I think moving forward… you’ll see more of them together.

 

 

Honestly… Trouba gets beat up, cause he should only be making 75% max of what he should be making… but I do think his intangibles are real. I think he’s a pro and a leader and guy who is totally a hockey player you want to play with and all of that. 
When in practical terms, we are only talking about no more than $2 million. 

 

And I honestly think he’s been exactly what they’ve needed over the last 5 seasons as they’ve brought up Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Schneider, and now seemingly Jones too. 
He’s been that steady, vet presence through all of it. 
I think that gets overlooked.

And undervalued.

But anyway…

 

Schneider is getting near his best hockey. He’s going to force for more minutes I think. And that means icetime with Miller.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keirik]

 

ready for the chat