Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Br4d said: That doesn't mean it's the right move. Zibanejad and Kreider are a year further out than they were last season and they weren't good enough last season even with Tank and Kane added to the mix. We had 3 solid lines and a decent 4th line after the deadline and we still crapped out. Yes, the players blamed the coaches at the end but they also said they were waiting around for Tank and Kane to be the difference and that should tell us all we need to know about this core. We could debate all day with the right and wrong moves would be. You can't be in a perpetual cycle of mediocrity and never go for it. You can't just cycle out old players and cycle in young guys all the time. They'll be plenty of time for that when this current group ages out, and they haven't aged out yet despite what some may think. It's really hard to win in this league. Plenty of good teams don't win the cup every year. The Rangers have a really good team, again despite what some here may say. There's no reason not to go for it right now. Law of averages says there's a larger chance that the players who have been playing poorly progress to what their hockey card says they are then there is that they just stay in a funk all season long. Edited January 31 by Pete 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 12 minutes ago, Pete said: We could debate all day with the right and wrong moves would be. You can't be in a perpetual cycle of mediocrity and never go for it. You can't just cycle out old players and cycle in young guys all the time. They'll be plenty of time for that when this current group ages out, and they haven't aged out yet despite what some may think. It's really hard to win in this league. Plenty of good teams don't win the cup every year. The Rangers have a really good team, again despite what some here may say. There's no reason not to go for it right now. Law of averages says there's a larger chance that the players who have been playing poorly progress to what their hockey card says they are then there is that they just stay in a funk all season long. Bingo. If they aren’t going for it when they’re good, then I don’t know when they’re doing that. And for those who say they shouldn’t, when should you? Cause teams do it all the time… typically when they’re good and feel like they’re close. As said…. You can’t just always cycle out old guys for young ones. You can’t just easily trade vets on big contracts. You can’t push the reset button every couple of years. You can’t make futures type trades when you’re winning 50 games every year. You can’t easily add that dynamic young player via trade without pulling pieces of your roster and creating new holes. Trade Miller you say? Cool. Who is his replacement? Zib is a chump who only scores on the PP, so move him. Ok? Who is taking that contract, who’s contract are you taking back, and who’s your 1C now that him and his 20 minutes a night in all situations is out the door? Like him or not, Larry Brooks made the point on the pod he does last week. It’s not 1992 anymore. There’s a cap. Guys have trade protection. It’s very difficult to effectively to remake your roster. Especially in season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Pete said: I agree that it likely comes down to playing style. For the role in visioned for the third line, you probably want Trocheck there. I would definitely try Elias with Bread to start. You can always move it back. I'd be wondering about the chemistry between Elias and KK as well. I don't think trading KK is the answer, I think fixing him is. The problem is when he's not playing with Zib, he's playing with the scrubs. Hard to imagine anybody having much success with Brodzinski. What would Laf be doing on that line? Or anybody without an elite skill set? It's this. Tro has been great....but we know what Lavi envisioned. Chyitl was 2C until he got hurt and Tro started on the 3rd line because of their desired usage. Additionally, Panarin is what's working there's not some untouchable chemistry going on. While Tro has 46 points he's been incredibly streaky. 18 points in his first 13 games there. Then 7 points in the next 11 games (which included 3 assists in 1 game so 4 points in the 10 others). Then he went nuts again with 14 points in 9 games. Now 3 points in the last 6. Also, add in the fact that Tro leads forwards in TOI because he's used frequently for DZ draws. Now if you add Lindholm, you get a guy that's still good on draws for Bread in the OZ and relieves some of that burden on Tro. You get an actual C that can win a draw for PP2. You get a guy that's proven he can score with talented players. Lavi can go back to his desired role for a 3rd line. Cuylle and Tro would terrorize teams, always looking over your shoulder for Cuylle coming to cremate you and if you get past him Tro is there to annoy the everliving shit out of you. I'd love Kakko on that line and really don't want to move him, but if it's required to get Lindholm so be it. Edited January 31 by Long live the King 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 And, like I said before, Lindholm has shown that when he plays with elite players, he can post explosive numbers. Trocheck is having a career year, but Lindholm feels like he could be the better offensive player. Again, I just want to try it (assuming they get him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 48 minutes ago, Pete said: I would do this but I'm not sure the Rangers would. I don't think that's true. Organizationally, they traded Leetch and bought out Hank. For Drury, this would be his version of the letter and trading McD. He'd be clearing the path for his 1st 1st round pick and sending a message to the remaining vets. At the same time, he could recoup many of the assets he'll have to give up for Lindholm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, Long live the King said: I don't think that's true. Organizationally, they traded Leetch and bought out Hank. For Drury, this would be his version of the letter and trading McD. He'd be clearing the path for his 1st 1st round pick and sending a message to the remaining vets. At the same time, he could recoup many of the assets he'll have to give up for Lindholm. Guys at the end of their careers. That's not the same as trading a guy who's producing more than he ever has, to sign a 30 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, Pete said: Guys at the end of their careers. That's not the same as trading a guy who's producing more than he ever has, to sign a 30 year old. Root for the laundry not the players. The NMC's give us a very warped view of the reality in play. The Rangers are past the window now. This is probably the first post-window season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, Pete said: Guys at the end of their careers. That's not the same as trading a guy who's producing more than he ever has, to sign a 30 year old. Yes, but guys you 'expected' to be career Rangers. That's the only reason I brought them up. McD was 28 and the captain. As you've stated, if Drury wants a culture shift and to start moving away from Gorton's guys Kreider is the first to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Br4d said: Root for the laundry not the players. The NMC's give us a very warped view of the reality in play. The Rangers are past the window now. This is probably the first post-window season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Long live the King said: Yes, but guys you 'expected' to be career Rangers. That's the only reason I brought them up. McD was 28 and the captain. As you've stated, if Drury wants a culture shift and to start moving away from Gorton's guys Kreider is the first to go. I hear you, and I see your logic, I've said the same thing regarding blowing it it up, culture, and CK. I just don't see the Rangers doing that. If they are moving a guy like Kreider, it's not going to be for a 30 year old IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valriera Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, Phil said: The only way Lindholm makes any sense is with an extension to push Trocheck to the third line and build a deep core down the middle. I'm not interested in renting Lindholm at any price, least of all for Cuylle, Othmann, or even Kakko. This is exactly right. I'm happy to put a different hole in my lineup to put Mika, Lindholm, and Trochek down the middle for a few years. This strategy is what made the kings a dynasty ten years back. Right now, our hole is in the middle which is the worst place for it to be. That is a formidable center ice lineup with three players that can all do the deed. If he signs for 6-7 range the math will work out ok. We're fine next season, but It will require dumping goodrow or kreider somewhere, and then not extending Miller in two years, but to me, that's a better team. If you can dump both goodrow and kreider somewhere, you get to probably keep Miller, but I'd honestly prefer to trade Miller for roughly to CoA package he will certainly fetch to make this move basically free. We already have the young stud defenseman in Fox who is not going anywhere, I don't need another one for the 6-8M miller is going to get. I think it's possible he hits more than 7 on the open market, in which case I think it's a little bit of a luxury we don't want to afford. But if I'm Drury, I ask to talk to the player and agent about if they're in the 6 or 7 with some term range, and if they are I am going to pull the trigger. this is all under the assumption Chytil doesn't come back, which at this point you can't plan your roster around, in my opinion. If one disagrees with this then obviously this deal makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlairBettsBlocksEverything Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 6 minutes ago, Pete said: I hear you, and I see your logic, I've said the same thing regarding blowing it it up, culture, and CK. I just don't see the Rangers doing that. If they are moving a guy like Kreider, it's not going to be for a 30 year old IMO. I also don't know if there'd be a huge market for Kreider, who gets a 15 team no trade clause starting july 1st $6.5 mil for a 32 year old who will still have 3 years left on his deal won't be easy to move/get good value for. Also i wouldn't label Kreider as one of 'Gorton's Guys' as he's been a career Ranger for 12+ years or whatever it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said: I also don't know if there'd be a huge market for Kreider, who gets a 15 team no trade clause starting july 1st $6.5 mil for a 32 year old who will still have 3 years left on his deal won't be easy to move/get good value for. Also i wouldn't label Kreider as one of 'Gorton's Guys' as he's been a career Ranger for 12+ years or whatever it is. Eh, I have to completely disagree. His age won't impact his playing style. Hands are usually the last thing to go. $6.5M for a 30 goal scorer with potential for up to 50 is an absolute steal. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlairBettsBlocksEverything Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) Maybe, I guess it also depends how he continues on this season/how he does in the playoffs. But still, given the timeframe to make a move for him needed, it'd be tough to get anything of value for him. Like, a team that could use him to make them a contender isnt gonna make a 'hockey trade' for him, we're only getting picks/prospects back and is that what we want? maybe we're doing a separate deal/3way trade where we get a top player back. I just can't see a realistic scenario where we get what we want out of a Kreider trade unless the goal is to just move on from him and look at Free Agents. Edited January 31 by BlairBettsBlocksEverything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 5 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said: I also don't know if there'd be a huge market for Kreider, who gets a 15 team no trade clause starting july 1st $6.5 mil for a 32 year old who will still have 3 years left on his deal won't be easy to move/get good value for. Also i wouldn't label Kreider as one of 'Gorton's Guys' as he's been a career Ranger for 12+ years or whatever it is. Gorton's guys are all the dudes he gave NMC's to that Drury has been stuck with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 14 minutes ago, Pete said: Shesterkin is no longer playing lights out. The Rangers record is worse in the games Adam Fox has played. Mika Zibanejad is basically invisible for long stretches of play. The kids have two-thirds blown out at this point. The defense has been atrocious for 20+ games now. The roster is full of 30+ players brought in to flesh out spots vacated due to cap issues. It's definitely post-prime time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 15 minutes ago, Pete said: I hear you, and I see your logic, I've said the same thing regarding blowing it it up, culture, and CK. I just don't see the Rangers doing that. If they are moving a guy like Kreider, it's not going to be for a 30 year old IMO. That's relative. They're using the money now for a 30 yo, but they're able to get youth back in the actual trade. If you envision a lineup next year of... Panarin - Lindholm - Laf Othmann - Zib - X Cuylle - Tro - Vesey Then the question is can you get a young cost-controlled RW back in the Kreider trade to fill in X? Maybe they move Miller in the offseason to fill in for X and replace Miller in the Kreider trade. Lots of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 29 minutes ago, Valriera said: This is exactly right. I'm happy to put a different hole in my lineup to put Mika, Lindholm, and Trochek down the middle for a few years. This strategy is what made the kings a dynasty ten years back. Right now, our hole is in the middle which is the worst place for it to be. That is a formidable center ice lineup with three players that can all do the deed. If he signs for 6-7 range the math will work out ok. We're fine next season, but It will require dumping goodrow or kreider somewhere, and then not extending Miller in two years, but to me, that's a better team. If you can dump both goodrow and kreider somewhere, you get to probably keep Miller, but I'd honestly prefer to trade Miller for roughly to CoA package he will certainly fetch to make this move basically free. We already have the young stud defenseman in Fox who is not going anywhere, I don't need another one for the 6-8M miller is going to get. I think it's possible he hits more than 7 on the open market, in which case I think it's a little bit of a luxury we don't want to afford. But if I'm Drury, I ask to talk to the player and agent about if they're in the 6 or 7 with some term range, and if they are I am going to pull the trigger. this is all under the assumption Chytil doesn't come back, which at this point you can't plan your roster around, in my opinion. If one disagrees with this then obviously this deal makes no sense. 1. Any Lindholm extension IMO spells the end of Goodrow. Trade or buyout, he's gone. They'll have 8.5 in Zib, 5.5 in Tro, and probably 6? in Lindholm. 4C/W needs to be under a million going forward. 2. I'm operating under the assumption Chytil never comes back because why should you believe it? He said the same "come back stronger" blah blah stuff, stepped on the ice with scrubs, and immediately probably concussed himself again. His symptoms have apparently been "severe" per Vince. I'm formally operating from the assumption he's never coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 52 minutes ago, Br4d said: Shesterkin is no longer playing lights out. The Rangers record is worse in the games Adam Fox has played. Mika Zibanejad is basically invisible for long stretches of play. The kids have two-thirds blown out at this point. The defense has been atrocious for 20+ games now. The roster is full of 30+ players brought in to flesh out spots vacated due to cap issues. It's definitely post-prime time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valriera Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 40 minutes ago, Phil said: 1. Any Lindholm extension IMO spells the end of Goodrow. Trade or buyout, he's gone. They'll have 8.5 in Zib, 5.5 in Tro, and probably 6? in Lindholm. 4C/W needs to be under a million going forward. 2. I'm operating under the assumption Chytil never comes back because why should you believe it? He said the same "come back stronger" blah blah stuff, stepped on the ice with scrubs, and immediately probably concussed himself again. His symptoms have apparently been "severe" per Vince. I'm formally operating from the assumption he's never coming back. Yup, I think if you think with these constraints then this is a really good roster move. Those three down the center will be really, really good. Borderline best in nhl imo. We have a glut of youth at wing for them to center. We can figure out the fourth line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Br4d said: Root for the laundry not the players. The NMC's give us a very warped view of the reality in play. The Rangers are past the window now. This is probably the first post-window season. 1 hour ago, Br4d said: Shesterkin is no longer playing lights out. The Rangers record is worse in the games Adam Fox has played. Mika Zibanejad is basically invisible for long stretches of play. The kids have two-thirds blown out at this point. The defense has been atrocious for 20+ games now. The roster is full of 30+ players brought in to flesh out spots vacated due to cap issues. It's definitely post-prime time. Boss I get that you’re down on them right now cause they’ve played meh hockey for 7 weeks and poor hockey for a month. But I gotta say that sounds like recency bias. But if you wanna play that game, look at the first 2 months of the season. Not just the W-L record but also the excellent metrics and underlying stats. We KNOW what they can do. Cause we’ve SEEN them do it. They’ve gotten away from that. They got banged up. Some guys aren’t playing well. They had guys playing up the lineup, guys probably playing too much, and some guys in the lineup who realistically maybe shouldn’t have been. And they CLEARLY were overcompensating for that and pressing. Moreover, they’ve had some anomalies too. They got goalied in a number of games. They had some games where they had tons of shots and chances and didn’t win. And their elite, all-world goalie hasn’t been making big saves he typically does. Yet here they sit, 30-16-3, in first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 3 minutes ago, Valriera said: Yup, I think if you think with these constraints then this is a really good roster move. Those three down the center will be really, really good. Borderline best in nhl imo. We have a glut of youth at wing for them to center. We can figure out the fourth line. I'm not cheerleading for this, but if they do it, I will say, they can be Boston-like and get away with not having a ton of high-end wingers (outside Panarin or Pastrnak for them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Br4d said: Shesterkin is no longer playing lights out. The Rangers record is worse in the games Adam Fox has played. Mika Zibanejad is basically invisible for long stretches of play. The kids have two-thirds blown out at this point. The defense has been atrocious for 20+ games now. The roster is full of 30+ players brought in to flesh out spots vacated due to cap issues. It's definitely post-prime time. Think this idea that there's some building your team and bringing the talent along at the prefect time is a bit flawed and old. Thing is, you simply need to get hot at the right time. LGK barely had a goalie going into the tournament. Panthers sent an arguably very superior Bruins team packing. That Igor has had a very rough season doesn't preclude Drury from thinking that can change for the better. The cap means that it's a year to year proposition. It's important to build your talent base and have younger talent on reasonable contracts or better yet, ELCs . But doesn't mean an older team can't win it either. May be the window is closed. But may be it's not. Will grant you the shit this team puts out some nights has to end or there's no point (goals against but seconds apart 8 times, goals to nonhacker shit heels, goals inside 1 minute , overpassing, jerking off in both ends, etc.) . But look around the NHL; teams get hot, and then they get cold. Oilers are on a burner now but they were total shit to start the season. But who's to say that might not change again? Same here, if in reverse. Oilers changed one big variable, the coach which isn't going to happen here nor should it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valriera Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 16 minutes ago, Phil said: I'm not cheerleading for this, but if they do it, I will say, they can be Boston-like and get away with not having a ton of high-end wingers (outside Panarin or Pastrnak for them). i think its at least viable but its one of a few options id be happy with, including a cheap center and upgrade our rw hole instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Phil said: I'm not cheerleading for this, but if they do it, I will say, they can be Boston-like and get away with not having a ton of high-end wingers (outside Panarin or Pastrnak for them). I’m with you on it, in that I would not be all about it, but if they did so, it’s actually not bad. And let’s face it…, it isn’t hard to find wingers. C’s are in much more scarce supply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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