Seravalli Rangers Gauging Interest in Barclay Goodrow

[Blue Heaven]

22 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Goodrow to me is THAT guy that as soon as you trade him....You need a guy like him.

 

Fast is a good example of that I thought.

Thats been the Rangers cycle the last 10 years with the bottom 6.

[LindG1000]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

But then you still need the ELC, so now it's more like $5.5+, which isn't happenning.

Either way, you're talking about needing two deals to close out the roster up front assuming you don't want to carry 13 forwards. Doesn't matter if it's Goodrow at 3.6 and an ELC at 900k or Hathaway at 2 and Fast at 2.5 (as an example) - no matter what, you're in need of two (three if you're going to carry 13F) ELCs.

 

It's a squeeze.

[Drew a Penalty]

18 hours ago, The Dude said:

Vesey fell off the map after leaving here, although it can be debated on whether he ever got on the map to begin with. Looking at the stats and the ice times, he's putting up similar numbers  and total ice times as his "prime" years, when there was much Vesey hype.

 

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking hes better (a word you just used) though. 

 

Sure he's changed.  He's become a guy desperate to stay in the league  and it's forced him to become a more sound defensive player. Again he's not better. You don't become better after leaving here, then having your last 2 stints being PTO contracts, then signing an extension for league minimum.  

 

Vesey is a nice depth forward. Lets leave it at that. 10 goals, 10 assists.  A bunch of shifts where you can clap your hands and say, wow, solid play by Vesey. He shouldn't be counted on for top 6 or very much top 9 production. He's not much of an energy player,  he's not physical,  he's not dangerous on offense.  He's a really good 4th liner that has a few uses.

 

I don't see how that's some kind of insult. Did I leave something out?  What am I not watching that you can talk about that I didn't bring up? IDK,  maybe you value that stuff a lot more than I do.  

You’re diminishing his improvement as though you have a vendetta against him. 
 

Quote

He's become a guy desperate to stay in the league  and it's forced him to become a more sound defensive player. Again he's not better.

Becoming a strong defensive player isn’t a beneficial trait? I’m sorry, but that’s flat out ridiculous. Who cares how or why he became the player he is? Anton Stralman was a failed PTO with the Devils. Did he not find a way to become an impactful defender? Using a PTO as means of diminishing a player’s contributions shows that you haven’t much of an argument.

Vesey went from this:

 

 

to this:

 

 

He’s an exceptionally good role player who can slot up in the lineup. He’s found his niche and chose to stay here in NY because it’s where he’s comfortable. But sure let’s shit on the player for taking a discount and staying where he’s comfortable. 
 

I’m also not surprised you hold this opinion of Vesey because you held the same for Fast. And you were undoubtedly wrong about Fast given the tireless efforts the Rangers have made to replace him. I don’t think you’re capable of appreciating a good defensive player. 

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Either way, you're talking about needing two deals to close out the roster up front assuming you don't want to carry 13 forwards. Doesn't matter if it's Goodrow at 3.6 and an ELC at 900k or Hathaway at 2 and Fast at 2.5 (as an example) - no matter what, you're in need of two (three if you're going to carry 13F) ELCs.

 

It's a squeeze.

Yes, but your scenario costs more LOL.

[BrooksBurner]

17 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

You’re diminishing his improvement as though you have a vendetta against him. 
 

Becoming a strong defensive player isn’t a beneficial trait? I’m sorry, but that’s flat out ridiculous. Who cares how or why he became the player he is? Anton Stralman was a failed PTO with the Devils. Did he not find a way to become an impactful defender? Using a PTO as means of diminishing a player’s contributions shows that you haven’t much of an argument.

Vesey went from this:

 

 

to this:

 

 

He’s an exceptionally good role player who can slot up in the lineup. He’s found his niche and chose to stay here in NY because it’s where he’s comfortable. But sure let’s shit on the player for taking a discount and staying where he’s comfortable. 
 

I’m also not surprised you hold this opinion of Vesey because you held the same for Fast. And you were undoubtedly wrong about Fast given the tireless efforts the Rangers have made to replace him. I don’t think you’re capable of appreciating a good defensive player. 

It’s interesting how there was apparently no system, yet journeyman Vesey managed to be high quality defensively and made each line he was on better overall.

[Drew a Penalty]

9 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

It’s interesting how there was apparently no system, yet journeyman Vesey managed to be high quality defensively and made each line he was on better overall.

Right. And going by everything we’ve learned about the incoming staff, he’ll be leaned on heavily.

[Pete]

Yes, like we've been saying, when there's a 23 man roster, and only 1-2 guys at each position are excelling defensively...There's no defensive system LOL. That's called "luck', and in Vesey's case, renewed effort and attention to defensive side knowing he's not going to be a top scorer in this league.

 

There's Lindgren on D, and Vesey at F.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Pete

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Drew a Penalty said:

You’re diminishing his improvement as though you have a vendetta against him. 
 

Becoming a strong defensive player isn’t a beneficial trait? I’m sorry, but that’s flat out ridiculous. Who cares how or why he became the player he is? Anton Stralman was a failed PTO with the Devils. Did he not find a way to become an impactful defender? Using a PTO as means of diminishing a player’s contributions shows that you haven’t much of an argument.

Vesey went from this:

 

 

to this:

 

 

He’s an exceptionally good role player who can slot up in the lineup. He’s found his niche and chose to stay here in NY because it’s where he’s comfortable. But sure let’s shit on the player for taking a discount and staying where he’s comfortable. 
 

I’m also not surprised you hold this opinion of Vesey because you held the same for Fast. And you were undoubtedly wrong about Fast given the tireless efforts the Rangers have made to replace him. I don’t think you’re capable of appreciating a good defensive player. 

Guess not. Because Vesey isn't very good nor is Fast. You talk these guys up as if they are Selke candidates. Hiw many Selkes has Fast won? What's his next contract going to be? 2.5 per? Yeah. Top notch player there. 

 

Vesey decided to stay? The Rangers offered him a 2 year extension.  Any guy that was almost out of the league would absolutely jump on an extension. Again.  Pretty much league minimum.  But, yeah. He's great..

 

 

I fully anticipate Vesey falling off the map hext year and not finishing his extension in the NHL with the Rangers . 

 

Vendetta? Yeah man. He kicked my dog years ago and I've had it in for him ever since. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Dude

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

It’s interesting how there was apparently no system, yet journeyman Vesey managed to be high quality defensively and made each line he was on better overall.

Yeah, it's almost as if it's coincidence.  

[Drew a Penalty]

Just now, The Dude said:

Guess not. Because Vesey isn't very good nor is Fast. You talk these guys up as if they are Selke candidates.  Vesey decided to stay? The Rangers offered him a 2 year extension.  Any guy that was almost out of the league would absolutely jump on an extension. Again.  Pretty much league minimum.  But, yeah. He's great..

 

 

I fully anticipate Vesey falling off the map hext year and not finishing his extension in the NHL with the Rangers . 

 

Vendetta? Yeah man. He kicked my dog years ago and I've had it in for him ever since. 

 

Fast isn’t good? Yeah that’s about all I needed to read.

[The Dude]

6 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

Homie, this is revisionist history at best and lying to yourself at worst. When you can acquire Patrick Kane for that cheap, you do it. Every single GM would have done this - it's not even a question worth asking. Eveni a hurt Kane is still Kane - even a hurt Kane put up 45 points in 54 games on a god-awful team trying to be god-awful. Even a hurt Kane put up 12 in 19 on a team where he was being saved for the playoffs. Hell. you wouldn't know it, but Showtime had 6 points in the playoffs. So one has to ask - when did the well dry that he shit the bed so hard in the playoffs?

 

Easy. Five points across games 1 and 2. Ruff adjusts. Gallant doesn't. Whole thing goes kaput. Same as Fox. Same as Panarin. Same as pretty much every player on this team not named Chris Kreider. 

 

This really isn't a hard puzzle to piece together. No matter how much we want to lay this season's failure at the feet of specific players, Gallant utterly fucked this team and was deservedly fired into the sun for it. 

No revisionist history here. The guy wasn't good here. Please don't bring up the stats,  because as we have all been saying for a year and a half now, stats don't tell the whole story. Otherwise Panarins 16 points in 20 playoff games last season,  wouldn't have us wondering why he's not a force in the playoffs.. 

 

Kane was useless as a Ranger.  He had chemistry with nobody.  He took over ZERO games. Regular season or playoffs. The well was dry upon arrival. The giveaways and the total lack of effort after said giveaways was jaw dropping. He was cooked. 

 

I disagree that every GM would make the move. Especially considering the hoop jumping the Rangers did, to get the cap space,  and then not be able to make any lineup or roster moves besides swapping the 6th and 7th D man moving forward.  No GM would cut out every single penny of their capspace and not have any spare players, going into the playoffs,  where injuries happen frequently.  GMs prefer roster flexibility over zero. No GM picks zero. 

 

A hurt Kane made zero difference because he was relied upon, when he just couldn't do it. He left saying he played bad. To point to the stats then blame the coach is half assing it. He stunk. 

 

I blame the coach for continually trying to milk anything from a  player that clearly had very little to give. But what was he going to do? The GM wipes out any wiggle room and drops a hurt future HOFer in your lap and says, go win , doesn't help the clueless coach. 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

Fast isn’t good? Yeah that’s about all I needed to read.

He's good. Just not as good as you make him out to be. You're acting like he's the top defensive forward in the game. The description you use for Fast, gets such players long term decent money contracts. Fast is coming off a 2 million dollar contract and is probably getting a similar deal on his next contract.  

 

Now I know you don't care to take into account what the rest of the league values these types of players as. As in PTOs and 3 year contracts for 2 mill. But the league does. The world does.

 

You get what you pay for. We are talking about 2- 30+ year old vets who are getting minimal pay on short term contracts.  So, how good ARE they, when guys like Goodrow, Coleman and such were able to get long term deals for over 3 mill? 

 

They're good low cost players. Can we agree that there's a difference between that and good players? 

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Dude

[Drew a Penalty]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

He's good. Just not as good as you make him out to be. You're acting like he's the top defensive forward in the game. The description you use for Fast, gets such players long term decent money contracts. Fast is coming off a 2 million dollar contract and is probably getting a similar deal on his next contract.  

 

Now I know you don't care to take into account what the rest of the league values these types of players as. As in PTOs and 3 year contracts for 2 mill. But the league does. The world does.

 

You get what you pay for. We are talking about 2- 30+ year old vets who are getting minimal pay on short term contracts.  So, how good ARE they, when guys like Goodrow, Coleman and such were able to get long term deals for over 3 mill? 

 

They're good low cost players. Can we agree that there's a difference between that and good players? 

Goodrow gets paid more than Fast because he won back to back cups. As much as Goodrow was a factor in those cups, I think Tampa would’ve won all the same with Fast in his stead. Fast is a better player and just doesn’t have cups on his resume. Don’t believe me? The stats back it up too. Of which you’ve provided none, by the way, besides point totals and cap hits. Is that how we judge quality? Cap hit? Jacob Trouba must be one hell of a defender then…

 

But let’s get to stats shall we?
 

 

Goodrow doesn’t even come close to Fast’s defensive ability. Fast is also quite literally the best forechecker in the league. The furthest up and to the right Canes flag represents him on the chart. It’s no wonder everywhere he goes he’s a valued teammate because he does all of the dirty work. And frankly I’m not convinced you know what the dirty work looks like. If you did, you’d appreciate players like Vesey and Fast. Their teammates do. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Goodrow gets paid more than Fast because he won back to back cups. As much as Goodrow was a factor in those cups, I think Tampa would’ve won all the same with Fast in his stead. Fast is a better player and just doesn’t have cups on his resume. Don’t believe me? The stats back it up too. Of which you’ve provided none, by the way, besides point totals and cap hits. Is that how we judge quality? Cap hit? Jacob Trouba must be one hell of a defender then…

 

But let’s get to stats shall we?
 

 

Goodrow doesn’t even come close to Fast’s defensive ability. Fast is also quite literally the best forechecker in the league. The furthest up and to the right Canes flag represents him on the chart. It’s no wonder everywhere he goes he’s a valued teammate because he does all of the dirty work. And frankly I’m not convinced you know what the dirty work looks like. If you did, you’d appreciate players like Vesey and Fast. Their teammates do. 

I agree with you overall, but I also think that this is a reflection of linemates (Fast plays mostly with Staal according to LWL) and also Fast playing on one of the ... you guessed it...best coached teams in the league. 

[The Dude]

25 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Goodrow gets paid more than Fast because he won back to back cups. As much as Goodrow was a factor in those cups, I think Tampa would’ve won all the same with Fast in his stead. Fast is a better player and just doesn’t have cups on his resume. Don’t believe me? The stats back it up too. Of which you’ve provided none, by the way, besides point totals and cap hits. Is that how we judge quality? Cap hit? Jacob Trouba must be one hell of a defender then…

 

But let’s get to stats shall we?
 

 

Goodrow doesn’t even come close to Fast’s defensive ability. Fast is also quite literally the best forechecker in the league. The furthest up and to the right Canes flag represents him on the chart. It’s no wonder everywhere he goes he’s a valued teammate because he does all of the dirty work. And frankly I’m not convinced you know what the dirty work looks like. If you did, you’d appreciate players like Vesey and Fast. Their teammates do. 

Goodrow gets paid more because he's a different type of player. Ontop of being an OK defender he plays every forward position and also plays the role of an agitator.

 

His cup success was something everyone bought into as a selling point on bringing him in. But now you're going to shoot that down. That's fine. I'll agree. I said he was a bit over rated when brought in,  but was told I was wrong then too, because I didn't know what the dirty work was and how valuable he was as he was slotted up the lineup. But you're telling me he stinks now, so IDK who to believe. 

 

I honestly have no idea what your charts mean. Sorry. It's just not something I look into much. Nor do I  believe they hold the weight of importance someone such as yourself does. 

 

I didn't bring up cap hits. I brought up contracts. Fast is the best forechecker in the game and he will walk from a contending team so he can get 2.2 million from another team. His offensive stats and TOI are that of a 4th liner. If he's so damn great why isn't he on a top line and getting 25 goals for all his hard work? 

 

These numbers are empty. Forecheck all you want, but if it doesn’t result in a takeaway or many goals, what effect does it actually have for the team?  Fast sure as hell isn't a focal point for an offensive line, which you seem to suggest since you throw in that his teammates love him because he does all the dirty work.

 

They love his effort. But his effort results in little on the stat sheet.  You say let's look at the stats, but I feel you ignore the obvious more important ones.  Points, time on ice and for a defensive forward, takeaways and blocked shots. League leaders in takeaways had 108. Fast had 24. Goodrow had 30. 

 

Again.  Fast is a good inexpensive player. I don't overvalue his metrics like you do, because I don't ever think they tell enough of the story. And by the lack of a big salary and short term contracts given to Fast, I think the league doesn't exactly agree with you. I'd think someone with all this value you claim hevhas, would have him paid and locked in. A cornerstone player. He's likely headed to his 3rd team in 4 years. 

 

I don't know what the dirty work looks like on a chart. I know what it looks like on the ice. Fast does some dirty work. As does Vesey. Did I say they didn't?  I don't recall doing so. 

[Drew a Penalty]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

I agree with you overall, but I also think that this is a reflection of linemates (Fast plays mostly with Staal according to LWL) and also Fast playing on one of the ... you guessed it...best coached teams in the league. 

Right but even Goodrow’s 3 year includes 1 year while he was with Tampa. That’s not even enough to pull up his numbers despite a stronger lineup and better coach.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Right but even Goodrow’s 3 year includes 1 year while he was with Tampa. That’s not even enough to pull up his numbers despite a stronger lineup and better coach.

I get it, I'm just saying there's other factors aside from quality of player.

[Drew a Penalty]

6 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 Fast sure as hell isn't a focal point for an offensive line, which you seem to suggest since you throw in that his teammates love him because he does all the dirty work.

 

I never said this, but it also clearly highlights your lack of understanding of his role and that of someone like Vesey. They’re not the ones scoring the goals…

 

But yeah I’m not wasting my time  “debating”  with someone reading around my arguments. You and I aren’t ever seeing eye to eye. 

[Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr]

36 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Goodrow gets paid more because he's a different type of player. Ontop of being an OK defender he plays every forward position and also plays the role of an agitator.

 

His cup success was something everyone bought into as a selling point on bringing him in. But now you're going to shoot that down. That's fine. I'll agree. I said he was a bit over rated when brought in,  but was told I was wrong then too, because I didn't know what the dirty work was and how valuable he was as he was slotted up the lineup. But you're telling me he stinks now, so IDK who to believe. 

 

I honestly have no idea what your charts mean. Sorry. It's just not something I look into much. Nor do I  believe they hold the weight of importance someone such as yourself does. 

 

I didn't bring up cap hits. I brought up contracts. Fast is the best forechecker in the game and he will walk from a contending team so he can get 2.2 million from another team. His offensive stats and TOI are that of a 4th liner. If he's so damn great why isn't he on a top line and getting 25 goals for all his hard work? 

 

These numbers are empty. Forecheck all you want, but if it doesn’t result in a takeaway or many goals, what effect does it actually have for the team?  Fast sure as hell isn't a focal point for an offensive line, which you seem to suggest since you throw in that his teammates love him because he does all the dirty work.

 

They love his effort. But his effort results in little on the stat sheet.  You say let's look at the stats, but I feel you ignore the obvious more important ones.  Points, time on ice and for a defensive forward, takeaways and blocked shots. League leaders in takeaways had 108. Fast had 24. Goodrow had 30. 

 

Again.  Fast is a good inexpensive player. I don't overvalue his metrics like you do, because I don't ever think they tell enough of the story. And by the lack of a big salary and short term contracts given to Fast, I think the league doesn't exactly agree with you. I'd think someone with all this value you claim hevhas, would have him paid and locked in. A cornerstone player. He's likely headed to his 3rd team in 4 years. 

 

I don't know what the dirty work looks like on a chart. I know what it looks like on the ice. Fast does some dirty work. As does Vesey. Did I say they didn't?  I don't recall doing so. 

do you just like hearing yourself talk? It’s like you don’t read the points being made against you. JFC. 

[The Dude]

43 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

I never said this, but it also clearly highlights your lack of understanding of his role and that of someone like Vesey. They’re not the ones scoring the goals…

 

But yeah I’m not wasting my time  “debating”  with someone reading around my arguments. You and I aren’t ever seeing eye to eye. 

I mean, we agree that Vesey and Fast are good 4th line players.  No? I don't recall saying anything different.  I wasn't the one propping up how important these types of players were, as if they are huge contributors. That was you. I said they aren't guys I want slotted up.  You brought charts to suggest they are andthat I was wrong.  But now you're not?

 

OK 

[Drew a Penalty]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I mean, we agree that Vesey and Fast are good 4th line players.  No? I don't recall saying anything different.  I wasn't the one propping up how important these types of players were, as if they are huge contributors. That was you. I said they aren't guys I want slotted up.  You brought charts to suggest they are andthat I was wrong.  But now you're not?

 

OK 

No. I’m avoiding having to waste my time debating you because you’re unbearably dense and lack reading comprehension skills.

[The Dude]

21 minutes ago, Rizz GAWD Lav No Cap FrFr said:

do you just like hearing yourself talk? It’s like you don’t read the points being made against you. JFC. 

Welcome to the conversation.  Thanks for adding so much.

[BrooksBurner]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

Yes, like we've been saying, when there's a 23 man roster, and only 1-2 guys at each position are excelling defensively...There's no defensive system LOL. That's called "luck', and in Vesey's case, renewed effort and attention to defensive side knowing he's not going to be a top scorer in this league.

 

There's Lindgren on D, and Vesey at F.

 

Well this is awkward, since he's been your whipping boy for years.

 

 

 

[The Dude]

1 minute ago, Drew a Penalty said:

No. I’m avoiding having to waste my time debating you because you’re unbearably dense and lack reading comprehension skills.

I read just fine. You just don't like my responses to your charts that were supposed to prove that Jimmy Vesey should be in the top 6, which is something I disputed. Which then somehow snowballed into how amazing Fast is, which I THOUGHT was in comparison to the Vesey conversation. Was it not? If not why are we talking about Jesper Fast again? Or Jimmy Vesey?  

 

Sorry I didn't like your charts. And I'm sorry I don't understand what Fast and his forechecking as a 3rd/4th liner has anything to do with Vesey not being a logical fit for a top 6 role. 

 

You're being super sensitive and childish because I don't agree with your charts. You only want to see what you want to put out there. Maybe I'm doing the same.  So, yeah. You go yourvway on this, I'll go mine. 

 

 

[torontonyr]

Why settle for Goodrow when you can acquire someone Betterdrow for cheaper...drow?