Mercogliano Complicated Negogiations Expected on K'Andre Miller's Second Contract

[Albatrosss]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Keller is 25 and is a somewhat the established version of the current TOP perceived potential of what Lafrenière is hoped and prayed to somehow be one day. Lafrenière will be 22 in October. You'd be trading youth for youth. 

And Kreider is 32. Trade him while he still has value. Laf is not hurting this team. He’s only hurting you because of your expectations of him

[RJWantsTheCup]

Sure there's a risk trading Donut Boy that he might one day blossom into at least half the player he was suppose to become, but I would trade him in a second for a RW that makes us a better cup contender.    Not many people complained in 94 when we traded Weight, Amonte & Marchant and got 1 cup out of it.  When who knows what happens if we keep them.   I'm not so sure I would say Lafraniere doesn't hurt the team, it's debatable, but not sure he helps them very much either.

[Scott]

6 hours ago, CCCP said:

Im just not so optimistic that a new coach will come in and this team will magically transform itself. We’ve been watching the same movie for 10 years. 

RIght. Quinn was way too demanding, GG nowhere near enough. At this point I think it's on the mirrors in the room and whoever is behind the bench is secondary, this group has burned that excuse twice already. I can't imagine a young guy coming in here with it being their first NHL job and  not getting tuned out in record time. Only chance  they would have is if  the players maintain control of how much pressure is on the leash at all times, otherwise they'll lay down one by one and revert back to we know what we have to do I don't know why we got away from it every time Igor loses.

[Br4d]

9 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Sure there's a risk trading Donut Boy that he might one day blossom into at least half the player he was suppose to become, but I would trade him in a second for a RW that makes us a better cup contender.    Not many people complained in 94 when we traded Weight, Amonte & Marchant and got 1 cup out of it.  When who knows what happens if we keep them.   I'm not so sure I would say Lafraniere doesn't hurt the team, it's debatable, but not sure he helps them very much either.

 

If we had a player on the roster who was even half of Mark Messier I'd have no problem trading Lafreniere to shore up the chance.  I'm pretty sure we don't have a player as good as Adam Graves either and as much as I like Fox he's no Brian Leetch.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Are you trying to say Lafraniere is becoming Messier?  I'm not sure what you're trying to say?  Please enlighten me.

[Br4d]

5 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Are you trying to say Lafraniere is becoming Messier?  I'm not sure what you're trying to say?  Please enlighten me.

 

I'm saying this core isn't going to get there with a few vet additions.  We've done that two years in a row with increasing desperation and it hasn't got us over the top.

 

One of the reasons I am down on this core right now is that both years we bowed out after winning the first 2 games of the series.  Vet teams are supposed to get tougher when the chips are down and this team pushes it all in the middle and then gets run over afterwards.

 

The way this team gets over the top is if most of the kids prove out.  The vets aren't actually the core of the team.  They are mostly the guys who will support the core if it emerges.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Thanks for explaining.   Can't say I agree.  I rather improve the team if there's an opportunity than hold onto something in the hopes that one day it comes around.  Seen to many high draft picks in sports be held onto when the opportunity was there to trade them only to see them never turn into anything.   If I'm GM and I can get a top 6 RW I make the trade and pray Lafraniere doesn't bite me in the ass.   This team is more in a win now mode than they are in a lets develop players and hope.

 

[Br4d]

The problem I have with standing pat with these vets is that they're totally unremarkable at even strength.  They're a league average team at best that wins due to Igor and the PP.

 

The PP wasn't all that good before GG arrived.  No idea if it was him that powered it up but mostly the same players just weren't that impressive on the PP pre-21-22.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Br4d said:

 

I'm saying this core isn't going to get there with a few vet additions.  We've done that two years in a row with increasing desperation and it hasn't got us over the top.

 

One of the reasons I am down on this core right now is that both years we bowed out after winning the first 2 games of the series.  Vet teams are supposed to get tougher when the chips are down and this team pushes it all in the middle and then gets run over afterwards.

 

The way this team gets over the top is if most of the kids prove out.  The vets aren't actually the core of the team.  They are mostly the guys who will support the core if it emerges.

 

I agree in general with you on the veteran core, however Keller is only just turning 25. He's young, and he's basically a proven core piece that the others haven't proven yet. 3 years older than Lafreniere, 1 year older than Chytil, a year and a half older than Miller. Especially the latter two, the age difference is negligible. Keller is not a guy you bring in for the sole purpose of trying to win with the current core. He is a part of the future core. The big thing about him is he puts up an insane amount of production at 5v5/ES, and that's a huge need for this team down the road. Not just in the immediate.

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

I'm saying this core isn't going to get there with a few vet additions.  We've done that two years in a row with increasing desperation and it hasn't got us over the top.

 

One of the reasons I am down on this core right now is that both years we bowed out after winning the first 2 games of the series.  Vet teams are supposed to get tougher when the chips are down and this team pushes it all in the middle and then gets run over afterwards.

 

The way this team gets over the top is if most of the kids prove out.  The vets aren't actually the core of the team.  They are mostly the guys who will support the core if it emerges.

Actually teams with better coaching know how to close out series, and games for that matter. 

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, Br4d said:

The problem I have with standing pat with these vets is that they're totally unremarkable at even strength.  They're a league average team at best that wins due to Igor and the PP.

 

The PP wasn't all that good before GG arrived.  No idea if it was him that powered it up but mostly the same players just weren't that impressive on the PP pre-21-22.

Better coaching will lead to better five on five play. 

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I agree in general with you on the veteran core, however Keller is only just turning 25. He's young, and he's basically a proven core piece that the others haven't proven yet. 3 years older than Lafreniere, 1 year older than Chytil, a year and a half older than Miller. Especially the latter two, the age difference is negligible. Keller is not a guy you bring in for the sole purpose of trying to win with the current core. He is a part of the future core. The big thing about him is he puts up an insane amount of production at 5v5/ES, and that's a huge need for this team down the road. Not just in the immediate.

I'm not that sold on Keller.

 

I think he would come here and probably be a 55-65 point guy, and there's nothing wrong with that but not at that cap hit. 

 

I just feel that teams roll into Arizona and don't take that team seriously, and they surprised a lot of teams last season. I know he's a really good player, but I don't think he's as good as last year a stats say he is.

 

When other teams see the Rangers come into town or come in to MSG themselves they're up for it.

 

When people see the Coyotes on the schedule, they're definitely having pregame beers. 

[Br4d]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I agree in general with you on the veteran core, however Keller is only just turning 25. He's young, and he's basically a proven core piece that the others haven't proven yet. 3 years older than Lafreniere, 1 year older than Chytil, a year and a half older than Miller. Especially the latter two, the age difference is negligible. Keller is not a guy you bring in for the sole purpose of trying to win with the current core. He is a part of the future core. The big thing about him is he puts up an insane amount of production at 5v5/ES, and that's a huge need for this team down the road. Not just in the immediate.

 

The Coyotes are not trading Keller for futures.  He's already here and he is the future also for them.

 

The only way they trade him is if they get back a high production player bundled with at least one other good prospect who is playing well now or they get back a better player of his generation.

 

For the Rangers that probably looks like:

 

a) Zibanejad and Miller.

b) Panarin and Chytil.

c) Fox

 

You can throw some other tidbit in on the Coyotes side but it isn't going to be good future value and it isn't going to be good for much next year either.

 

 

[Br4d]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

Actually teams with better coaching know how to close out series, and games for that matter. 

 

Right because the Rangers knew how to blow out the Lightning and Devils in the first two games but got stupid right after that.

 

I understand.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Br4d said:

 

Right because the Rangers knew how to blow out the Lightning and Devils in the first two games but got stupid right after that.

 

I understand.

Well, you're not closing out series in game one and game two. So there's a different mentality.

 

Surely you've heard the term killer instinct as it relates to sports teams, correct?

Edited May 26, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

Just now, Pete said:

Well, you're not closing out series in game one and game two. So there's a different mentality.

 

Surely you've heard the term killer instinct as it relates to sports teams, correct?

 

Killer instinct is not about coaching.  It's on the ice.

[Pete]

Just now, Br4d said:

 

Killer instinct is not about coaching.  It's on the ice.

Right. And it can be coached as well. There's a reason teams know how to close out games, and I can assure you it's not because by happenstance they have 20 players who know how to close out games. When 20 players are following the same philosophies and systems, that's called "coaching". 

[The Dude]

58 minutes ago, CCCP said:

And Kreider is 32. Trade him while he still has value. Laf is not hurting this team. He’s only hurting you because of your expectations of him

I don't understand the logic in trading a guy who last year topped 50 goals, is a top of the league net front presence in favor of a guy that scored 16 goals and does nothing exceptionally well.

 

Never mnid the trade is to bring in a somewhat soft player who plays similar to the guys everyone  says are the problems on the roster. 

 

You aren't upgrading by moving Kreider. Replacing Kreider with Keller fixes nothing. It actually makes things worse. You're taking away from what is perceived as what is right in the top 6 and replacing it with mote of what's wrong. 

 

You ARE upgrading if you are dealing Lafrenière and Chytil (Id like a littlesomethingmore in return).  Keller is better than both. He can play either ones position and outperform them. He's a better version of Chytil. Pretty much, what we would all love to see Chytil become. And I really like Chytil.  Keller is better and I think will continue to be. 

 

I understand the want to get rid of a large contract. I just don't see this as the proper move. Kreider is tradeable. Just not for a guy like that. 

 

 

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Right. And it can be coached as well. There's a reason teams know how to close out games, and I can assure you it's not because by happenstance they have 20 players who know how to close out games. When 20 players are following the same philosophies and systems, that's called "coaching". 

 

And then there's Belichik and Brady and wouldn't ya know that the killer instinct on the sidelines was a hoax and the killer instinct on the field is what won all those trophies.

 

There are players I really like on the Rangers but the only guy on the roster who really has a killer instinct is Trouba and he can only take you so far.

[Albatrosss]

25 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I agree in general with you on the veteran core, however Keller is only just turning 25. He's young, and he's basically a proven core piece that the others haven't proven yet. 3 years older than Lafreniere, 1 year older than Chytil, a year and a half older than Miller. Especially the latter two, the age difference is negligible. Keller is not a guy you bring in for the sole purpose of trying to win with the current core. He is a part of the future core. The big thing about him is he puts up an insane amount of production at 5v5/ES, and that's a huge need for this team down the road. Not just in the immediate.

Exactly!! So why trade a 21 year old who could become a future core? You trade older players who got you nowhere, like Kreider:)

[Albatrosss]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I don't understand the logic in trading a guy who last year topped 50 goals, is a top of the league net front presence in favor of a guy that scored 16 goals and does nothing exceptionally well.

 

Never mnid the trade is to bring in a somewhat soft player who plays similar to the guys everyone  says are the problems on the roster. 

 

You aren't upgrading by moving Kreider. Replacing Kreider with Keller fixes nothing. It actually makes things worse. You're taking away from what is perceived as what is right in the top 6 and replacing it with mote of what's wrong. 

 

You ARE upgrading if you are dealing Lafrenière and Chytil (Id like a littlesomethingmore in return).  Keller is better than both. He can play either ones position and outperform them. He's a better version of Chytil. Pretty much, what we would all love to see Chytil become. And I really like Chytil.  Keller is better and I think will continue to be. 

 

I understand the want to get rid of a large contract. I just don't see this as the proper move. Kreider is tradeable. Just not for a guy like that. 

 

 

Sorry Dude. Nothing in this post makes sense to me. 
 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, CCCP said:

And Kreider is 32. Trade him while he still has value. Laf is not hurting this team. He’s only hurting you because of your expectations of him

He's hurting them because he's not very good and a redundant style of player. He's weak, soft and in bad shape. They need something different. They need more LIKE Kreider and less like Lafrenière.

 

Obviously Kreider has his inconsistencies and needs to get back to being a physical force,  but the guy is the only forward in the top 9 that you can't say plays a weak style of hockey.

 

In other words. Kreider is one of the least of the problems and ontop of that, looks to be somewhat of a value contract for what he's done since signing it. 

 

 

[Albatrosss]

When was the last time you saw Kreider make a hit?  2015? 
 

laf is far from being soft or weak. And he’s only 21. I think you’re confusing him with Gauthier. 

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

And then there's Belichik and Brady and wouldn't ya know that the killer instinct on the sidelines was a hoax and the killer instinct on the field is what won all those trophies.

 

There are players I really like on the Rangers but the only guy on the roster who really has a killer instinct is Trouba and he can only take you so far.

By your logic coaches role is changing lines. 

[BrooksBurner]

16 minutes ago, CCCP said:

Exactly!! So why trade a 21 year old who could become a future core? You trade older players who got you nowhere, like Kreider:)

 

You have to trade something to get him. You're not getting a core piece for Kreider.