2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Hey....what's a Right Wing look like?  I've often heard of them, but I haven't seen one in seemingly forever!

[Bugg]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:23 AM, Pete said:

There's no way the Rangers can afford the +6M someone is going to give him.

 

Moving someone like Miller to add Tarasenko doesn't make the team much (if at all) better. 

 

People are way too quick to turn their back on Miller, but there's no one coming to take his place. If you don't think Miller can defend, have you seen Zac Jones?

 

Trading Miller would be a more collosal blunder than trading Buch. 

Is there really that much of a dropoff with Jones as 2nd pair rather than Miller? Miller has a few dazzling plays every year and a whole lot of wondering how a guy with that size and skill set hasn't put it all together. And his contract is gonna be stupid. Would rather resign Lindgren over him and see if another team with give you talent for Miller for the right to overpay him. 

 

Suggesting Miller is anywhere near Fox  or ever will be is freaking batshit crazy. 

 

 

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Is there really that much of a dropoff with Jones as 2nd pair rather than Miller? Miller has a few dazzling plays every year and a whole lot of wondering how a guy with that size and skill set hasn't put it all together. And his contract is gonna be stupid. Would rather resign Lindgren over him and see if another team with give you talent for Miller for the right to overpay him. 

 

Suggesting Miller is anywhere near Fox  or ever will be is freaking batshit crazy. 

 

 

I think that would be a massive drop off between Miller and Jones. You think Trouba/Miller is bad? Woof.

 

I think you're underestimating how impressive it is for Miller to have put up a 40-point season with no power play time, and defense can be taught and supported with systems. 

[BrooksBurner]

Look at the defensive groups of the teams in the finals. Not a lot going on after a couple of guys.

 

I'd take Conor Garland and pick #11 from Vancouver for Miller.

[RichieNextel305]

Man, watching this Trophy presentation actually has me angry, sad and mad. We need to get this done, man. We need to. I want a night like this. Can it just be our fucking turn? Just one night. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Pete]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Look at the defensive groups of the teams in the finals. Not a lot going on after a couple of guys.

 

I'd take Conor Garland and pick #11 from Vancouver for Miller.

It's actually quite the opposite, they're all tall players with long sticks who can skate.

 

That's why you don't trade Miller. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It's actually quite the opposite, they're all tall players with long sticks who can skate.

 

That's why you don't trade Miller. 

 

Miller is actually what the league is moving towards, or so it seems.  I think I saw a ton of that type play with Vegas this series.  No way I trade Miller.

 

I don't think it's too smart to trade anyone right now, until we see what they actually can do in a systemic type game situation, over the course of a season.  That includes Yukon Cornelius.

 

After this season, I think all bets are off.  Until I see what these guys can do under Laviolette, then I'll be able to digest why they let some of them go.  Thing is, we've been blaming the last 2 coaches for downfall, and rightfully so in my opinion.  This time, the shit hits the fan!  If they can't muster the intensity, and grasp the system that Lavvy installs, it's time to cut bait on some of these punks.

 

Clean slate....let's bring it back as is (sans adding a RW), and give it another kick at the can!

 

I'm in, and I'm rolling with Laviolette 100%!

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It's actually quite the opposite, they're all tall players with long sticks who can skate.

 

That's why you don't trade Miller. 

First time I’ve ever seen anyone say Marc Staal can still skate.

 

No. The key was it didn’t matter if they were flashy. They just had to be reasonably dependable defensively. Miller isn’t that.

Edited June 14, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

First time I’ve ever seen anyone say Marc Staal can still skate.

 

No. The key was it didn’t matter if they were flashy. They just had to be reasonably dependable defensively. Miller isn’t that.

Oh the cherry picking knows no bounds LOL. Of course you would pick the one player out of the 12 .

 

I don't know why I'm surprised, but I shouldn't be.

 

I'll take the W. 

[BrooksBurner]

16 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

Miller is actually what the league is moving towards, or so it seems.  I think I saw a ton of that type play with Vegas this series.  No way I trade Miller.

 

I don't think it's too smart to trade anyone right now, until we see what they actually can do in a systemic type game situation, over the course of a season.  That includes Yukon Cornelius.

 

After this season, I think all bets are off.  Until I see what these guys can do under Laviolette, then I'll be able to digest why they let some of them go.  Thing is, we've been blaming the last 2 coaches for downfall, and rightfully so in my opinion.  This time, the shit hits the fan!  If they can't muster the intensity, and grasp the system that Lavvy installs, it's time to cut bait on some of these punks.

 

Clean slate....let's bring it back as is (sans adding a RW), and give it another kick at the can!

 

I'm in, and I'm rolling with Laviolette 100%!

 

I don't think that's going to be the case. Players and coaches generally get a year to "adjust" with a new coach, and the following season is when there's more potential consequence. That's the problem with this direction. An excuse has already been cooked to a beautiful medium rare for another soft playoff exit. I wouldn't expect any "big" moves next summer.

Edited June 14, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't think that's going to be the case. Players and coaches generally get a year to "adjust" with a new coach, and the following season is when there's more potential consequence. That's the problem with this direction. An excuse has already been cooked to a beautiful medium rare for another soft playoff exit.

Did Vegas need a year to adjust to Cassidy? Stars a year to adjust to DeBoer? Panthers to Maurice? Nah. 

 

You're just a dude with a negative outlook. Buck up. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Pete

[Ozzy]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't think that's going to be the case. Players and coaches generally get a year to "adjust" with a new coach, and the following season is when there's more potential consequence. That's the problem with this direction. An excuse has already been cooked to a beautiful medium rare for another soft playoff exit.

 

I hear ya, RMC, but I think that might apply more to a team that hasn't been together as long as these guys.  I could be wrong, but I think this "adjust on the fly" coaching change is kinda what we needed.

 

It does kinda bake in an excuse, but most of us can see through that...especially up here!  LOL

 

I'm curious to see this team with some structure, and especially Igor.  He was fabulous with very little to no help back there, bailing us out of unreal scoring opportunities.  Can you imagine what he'd be like facing 5 or less high danger scoring chances during games? 

 

I've been siding with the belief that this team needs direction.  For me it's been pretty clear since I watched that puke against the Hawks, when Trouba did the helmet throw.  I was thinking this team isn't making the playoffs.  Igor I believe was the reason this team got anywhere, and it can't work like that in this NHL.

We'll see what goes down, and I do believe that there will be an adjustment period before the team buys into Lavvy, and gets rolling.  How long that takes is anybody's guess, but I hear where you're at, my man! 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Oh the cherry picking knows no bounds LOL. Of course you would pick the one player out of the 12 .

 

I don't know why I'm surprised, but I shouldn't be.

 

I'll take the W. 

 

35 year old Alec Martinez on the top pairing just won his 3rd Cup. He's 6'1" with 14 points this year. That's not tall and he doesn't score points.

 

Median starting defenseman height:

 

VGK: 6'2 1/2"

Florida: 6'

Colorado last year: 6'1"

Rangers w/ Miller: 6'3"

Rangers w/o Miller: 6'3"

 

Rangers have size already, with or without Miller, and height is a weird thing to be pumping anyway. I care more if defensemen know how to play defense. The objective is in the name.

 

[Pete]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

35 year old Alec Martinez on the top pairing just won his 3rd Cup. He's 6'1" with 14 points this year. That's not tall and he doesn't score points.

 

Median starting defenseman height:

 

VGK: 6'2 1/2"

Florida: 6'

Colorado last year: 6'1"

Rangers w/ Miller: 6'3"

Rangers w/o Miller: 6'3"

 

Rangers have size already, with or without Miller, and height is a weird thing to be pumping anyway. I care more if defensemen know how to play defense. The objective is in the name.

 

Okay, well you can ignore all the commentary around the Vegas defensive core from the experts around hockey. You can continue thinking you know more than they do, and I'll keep taking my cues from the people who live and breathe the sport. 

 

(And who cares about Florida, they just got dismantled and they couldn't defend. They gave up 9 goals in an elimination game).

[BrooksBurner]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

Did Vegas need a year to adjust to Cassidy? Stars a year to adjust to DeBoer? Panthers to Maurice? Nah. 

 

You're just a dude with a negative outlook. Buck up. 

 

I didn't say it was impossible to have success in the first year. I said there's a fallback excuse baked in, and there is. A first round exit won't matter. Initially there will be "this group doesn't have it", but it will inevitably turn to "well it was the first year with Lavi and these guys, gotta see how next year goes before doing anything crazy".

 

Most of the time it does not turn out how it did for Florida or VGK, but then again, those teams made similarly matching big roster moves in Eichel and Tkachuk. VGK had playoff grit, but not enough high end talent. Florida had high end talent but not the playoff grit. They didn't just stay stagnant and swap coaches. They both addressed roster needs in a big way. Florida especially knew they needed to make a big roster move after what they saw in the playoffs last year. That's what the Rangers need.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I didn't say it was impossible to have success in the first year. I said there's a fallback excuse baked in, and there is. A first round exit won't matter. Initially there will be "this group doesn't have it", but it will inevitably turn to "well it was the first year with Lavi and these guys, gotta see how next year goes before doing anything crazy".

Stop assuming there will need to be an excuse. They'll probably be fine. And I don't believe for a minute that Drury won't make major moves should this team suffer the same issues under Gallant. It's clear as day they all felt he played a bigger role in the shortcomings than you do.

 

Quote

Most of the time it does not turn out how it did for Florida or VGK, but then again, those teams made similarly matching big roster moves in Eichel and Tkachuk. VGK had playoff grit, but not enough high end talent. Florida had high end talent but not the playoff grit. They didn't just stay stagnant and swap coaches.

 

They both addressed roster needs in a big way. Florida especially knew they needed to make a big roster move after what they saw in the playoffs last year. That's what the Rangers need.

OK well Dallas pretty much ran back and went from barely making the playoffs and a first round exit to the conference final.

 

Vegas had Eichel last year, so your logic is not applying. Coaching matters, you keep trying to downplay it, but it plays a bigger role than you want to admit. 

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

I hear ya, RMC, but I think that might apply more to a team that hasn't been together as long as these guys.  I could be wrong, but I think this "adjust on the fly" coaching change is kinda what we needed.

 

It does kinda bake in an excuse, but most of us can see through that...especially up here!  LOL

 

I'm curious to see this team with some structure, and especially Igor.  He was fabulous with very little to no help back there, bailing us out of unreal scoring opportunities.  Can you imagine what he'd be like facing 5 or less high danger scoring chances during games? 

 

I've been siding with the belief that this team needs direction.  For me it's been pretty clear since I watched that puke against the Hawks, when Trouba did the helmet throw.  I was thinking this team isn't making the playoffs.  Igor I believe was the reason this team got anywhere, and it can't work like that in this NHL.

We'll see what goes down, and I do believe that there will be an adjustment period before the team buys into Lavvy, and gets rolling.  How long that takes is anybody's guess, but I hear where you're at, my man! 

 

I get where you're coming from, and a coaching swap is better than nothing (I also agree it was needed), but as usual with this org it feels very half-assed to solving anything. I'll gladly eat crow if you are right and we are celebrating next June.

 

Drury may yet surprise this summer, but I doubt it. He's choosing the safe route, and there's nothing safe about making a big, similarly needed roster move like Vegas did for Eichel and Florida did for Tkachuk.

[Phil]

12 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Look at the defensive groups of the teams in the finals. Not a lot going on after a couple of guys.

 

I'd take Conor Garland and pick #11 from Vancouver for Miller.

 

For Laugh. Not Miller. We agree on plenty regarding this roster, but we fundamentally disagree on Miller. Trading him is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[BrooksBurner]

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

For Laugh. Not Miller. We agree on plenty regarding this roster, but we fundamentally disagree on Miller. Trading him is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It’s not if you can backfill with a cheaper defensive defenseman who can play his own zone, and pocket the kind of return I mentioned, but I digress.

Ultimately, the only reason we are even talking about Lafreniere or Miller, and we shouldn’t have to be, is because of the playoff-mouse-on-an-elephant-sized contract that probably can’t be moved. That’s just the reality of it.

 

My beef with the Laviolette hire isn’t even really Laviolette himself. It’s what he represents, which is a double down on maintaining the status quo for the roster. The status quo stinks. I’m convinced there’s only one real move to get to fixing it, and it won’t be done because the franchise doesn’t have the cojones to play hard ball about it.

[siddious]

We so often look at guys like Skjei & Howden and wonder why they succeed when they leave the rangers. It’s bad enough the fans here have no patience but the organization seems to have even less. 
 

with a new coach at the helm, and perhaps finally a decent system, I think it’s stupid to move on from anyone until we see how they perform with another year of experience and a solid system. 
 

I poke fun at laugh and quite honest he may be a “bust” in the sense that he’s never going to live up to a 1oa pick BUT you gain nothing moving him (unless drury can pull off some sort of highway robbery). In almost any case you’re better off keeping him. 
 

miller has the raw talent to at the very least be a top 3 guy. The stuff he sucks at can be taught. It will help to have a coach who job title also entails “developing young players” (hope Laviolette is better at that). If cap crunch is your main criteria for trading an up and coming 40pt defenseman then I think that answers the question of whether or not he SHOULD be moved. I sooner move Goodrow and trochek. It’s not just about this season but the next 5-7. 
 

 

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

It’s not if you can backfill with a cheaper defensive defenseman who can play his own zone, and pocket the kind of return I mentioned, but I digress.

Ultimately, the only reason we are even talking about Lafreniere or Miller, and we shouldn’t have to be, is because of the playoff-mouse-on-an-elephant-sized contract that probably can’t be moved. That’s just the reality of it.

 

My beef with the Laviolette hire isn’t even really Laviolette himself. It’s what he represents, which is a double down on maintaining the status quo for the roster. The status quo stinks. I’m convinced there’s only one real move to get to fixing it, and it won’t be done because the franchise doesn’t have the cojones to play hard ball about it.

 

The problem with this is you're effectively crippling your puck-moving ability, which is key to kickstarting the offense, because the forwards don't really have the high-end speed to make up the difference. On this team, today, Miller and Fox are really the only two defenders who don't go off the glass and out on most breakouts. I'm really, really, really wary of dumping him for a "defensive defenseman" because that traditionally means another guy who also goes off the glass and out.

 

If we were talking Ekholm here, I'd be less concerned, but it's hard to envision without a better idea of who you mean.

[Ozzy]

26 minutes ago, siddious said:

We so often look at guys like Skjei & Howden and wonder why they succeed when they leave the rangers. It’s bad enough the fans here have no patience but the organization seems to have even less. 
 

with a new coach at the helm, and perhaps finally a decent system, I think it’s stupid to move on from anyone until we see how they perform with another year of experience and a solid system. 
 

I poke fun at laugh and quite honest he may be a “bust” in the sense that he’s never going to live up to a 1oa pick BUT you gain nothing moving him (unless drury can pull off some sort of highway robbery). In almost any case you’re better off keeping him. 
 

miller has the raw talent to at the very least be a top 3 guy. The stuff he sucks at can be taught. It will help to have a coach who job title also entails “developing young players” (hope Laviolette is better at that). If cap crunch is your main criteria for trading an up and coming 40pt defenseman then I think that answers the question of whether or not he SHOULD be moved. I sooner move Goodrow and trochek. It’s not just about this season but the next 5-7. 
 

 

 

...buying you a beer!  Cheers, Brutha!!!

[siddious]

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

...buying you a beer!  Cheers, Brutha!!!

I’ll also add that the “he’s not physical” complaints are so out of context. Neither is Fox, why are we not talking about that? Oh cuz he’s an offensive dman? Yea got it. Every player brings something different. Miller will learn the defense side better it’s only a matter of time. 

[RangersIn7]

14 hours ago, Pete said:

I think that would be a massive drop off between Miller and Jones. You think Trouba/Miller is bad? Woof.

 

I think you're underestimating how impressive it is for Miller to have put up a 40-point season with no power play time, and defense can be taught and supported with systems. 

I actually don’t think, from a defensive standpoint, Trouba and Miller are that bad.

And in actuality, they could be VERY good, with a system and clearly defined roles/responsibilities, and all of it is relative to how they are deployed, the matchups that are played, who they are played with amongst the forwards, and all of that.

 

One of the biggest issues they have, in all honesty, is the absence of two things.

 

A shutdown D pair.

A true checking/shutdown line.

 

We can argue this up and down… but if you look at the last 10+ SC Champs… everyone of them had that. 
 

Don’t believe me?  Just go look.

 

The Rangers in truth, have the personnel to do that. Truly they do. And it’s actually easy to put together.

 

What surprises me, is that over the last 2 years, they haven’t actually done it. 
And there have been, at hand, good options with which to try and establish that. 
 

They can do it.

It will at this point be, some 5-man unit, consisting of some combination of Kreider-Trochek-Goodrow-Kakko-Vesey-Motte, up front. And Zib can spot in there at times too, but not too much. He’s available for use there, but not too heavy.

 

On D… the scene now is good. And Schneider is the key. Honestly.

Hes the guy that takes minutes from Trouba. In the more defensively oriented situations. 
 

Moving forward actually, I’d really like to see the following on D.

 

Miller-Fox

Lindgren-Schneider 

6/7/8-Trouba.

 

Harpur/Jones/Robertson  as 6/7/8.

 

Manage your lineup and shuffle them as needed. 
 

All those guys, 1 through 5, can play 20+ minutes whenever needed.

6/7/8 can play 15-18. 
 

They’re fine. 
 

And if someone would just re-teach Jacob Trouba to win a battle down low, get the puck, and get it up and out quickly, again, like he did in Winnipeg for several seasons, hey… that would be great!

He’s never gonna be Scott Stevens, Pronger, or “insert name” as a shut-down D,  but he’s certainly capable of better than his roughly above average to good play that he’s shown here, given his cap hit, role, etc. 

 

Much of that comes from guys having a solid system with true roles and playing it with high discipline amongst good matchups. Which is achievable with this roster.

 

Tons of offensive talent and an elite goaltender. Plus an elite C, D, and W. 

While this roster is not suited to a true defensive style, they don’t have that club in their bag, and they need it. With that goalie, they need to be able to play a slower, more deliberate style and pace when they have a lead and matchup advantages going on, which is often. 

Enter new HC.

[Ozzy]

You know, I gotta be fair about something else here too.

 

We've been getting on Trouba a lot, especially me.  I gotta say, after looking at all the other players, and giving them their due for not having the correct support system, I think Trouba also can be way better, being utilized correctly and efficiently.

 

Gallant put him in situations that were way out of his comfort zone, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

First off, I don't think he should be anywhere near a fucking Power Play, and his physical presence can be used much better in the correct match-ups.  Albeit his contract is a burden, I think Lavvy should be able to get a metric fuck-ton of mileage from Trouba this coming season.

 

I don't even dislike Trouba.  I think he's a very useful asset...IN THE RIGHT MATCH-UPS, and also in the proper game situations.  I'm anxious to see how he improves this season.