rumor/report: Rangers Sending Two Scouts to Leafs/Pens Game; Nylander?

[Pete]

No one talked about a lot of things three years ago, or three years before that, or before that. That's how progress works. A decade ago shot metrics just meant shots. What you call a fad, I call progress.

 

As to Barkov & Co, I think he's brilliant for using them as comparables. They establish a ceiling (again, based on percentage) for him to baseline his value.

 

Why on earth, if you think you're worth $100K a year are you asking for $80 instead of $120 knowing negotiations almost always move downward, not up?

It's a number invented by GMs to control salary. Like I said, no agent is taking % cap back to a player and telling them to take less money than a comparable player.

 

Well the real workforce doesn't work that way because you don't look at other people on your team and say "pay me that".

 

However, if I were an athlete, I wouldn't point at two player who've proven more than I have, and say "I'm as good as they are, I promise I am!"

[Phil]

It's a number invented by GMs to control salary. Like I said, no agent is taking % cap back to a player and telling them to take less money than a comparable player.

 

No, of course not. But the GM, in talking to the agent, is almost certainly concerned with it. It's just a pragmatic way of dealing with math that changes year-to-year. The players are easier to placate if the cap continues to rise becuase they see their salaries, on average, just going up year-to-year. So telling Matthews "you'll get McDavid money, but just under" is an easier sell. But balancing that within a capped system requires more than oneupsmanship.

 

When we talk about market value of players, I view it through the prism of the GMs (so percentages). When we talk about the market value of an individual, I tend to view it based on comparables where the percentage only really comes into play with regard to how that number will affect a team. Does that make sense?

 

Well the real workforce doesn't work that way because you don't look at other people on your team and say "pay me that".

 

However, if I were an athlete, I wouldn't point at two player who've proven more than I have, and say "I'm as good as they are, I promise I am!"

 

Maybe not, but I'm trying to draw an analogy to point to why a pro player wouldn't undercut his ability to make guaranteed money.

[Pete]

Fair enough. This new view from the GM side is new for you. ;)

[Phil]

Progress! :rofl:

[CBrowningPI]

How? Both are indicative of the coach playing him a lot.

Of course it is. I would think Quinn is smart enough that he puts out his best options. If Pionk is trusted to play PK, PP and overtime minutes it means a Hellava lot more then some early Corsi numbers. You think they watch this kid play and say "yeah, he looks good but damn his Corsi numbers are atrocious". Not happening.

 

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[Phil]

How is this not just a giant appeal to authority? By that logic, there are no bad coaches or bad coaching decisions. So, I guess AV was right to play Girardi 25:00 a night despite being a Titanic-sized anchor on anyone he played with?

[CBrowningPI]

All I'm saying is that basing a player on his Corsi numbers in the first twenty games does not give you a clear picture of a players worth. AV made a plethora of bad decisions but you cannot compare those to a new coach. I think most would agree that Quinn has a good eye for the game and his players. You cannot compare Girardi-Pionk and AV/Quinn. It's apples to eggplant. As of right now Pionk is arguably their best defenseman and he's really opened alot of eyes to his potential. He happens to have the perfect skill set for a modern day Dman. To devalue him based on Corsi is naive.

 

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[josh]

Fancy stats were only brought up because Dubas is a stat guy.

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

How is this not just a giant appeal to authority? By that logic, there are no bad coaches or bad coaching decisions. So, I guess AV was right to play Girardi 25:00 a night despite being a Titanic-sized anchor on anyone he played with?

 

 

Checked out Tampa recently? 3 former NYR starting defensemen playing regularly, 1 a highly regarded former Capt. 2 former regular forwards; 1 a former Capt. Not good enough for NY, it seems.

 

 

[Blue Heaven]

https://nypost.com/2018/11/17/deal-for-maple-leafs-forward-may-take-big-rangers-piece/?utm_source=twitter_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons

 

The Rangers are not among the front-runners in the hunt to acquire Toronto’s restricted free agent forward William Nylander, now just two weeks away from the Dec. 1 signing deadline. But they are interested, and of course they are.

The notion somehow circulating through the public sector that the Rangers are out of the running because they won’t send Brady Skjei north as part of the package is as nonsensical as it is false.

But if Skjei were the primary part of the ask, it would likely be a matter of hours, not days and not weeks, that young William would become the second Nylander to wear Rangers duds

Now, let’s pretend Skjei is on the Leafs’ wish list. Could they be enticed into sending Nylander (42 goals and 80 assists in 163 games the past two seasons} to New York with the addition of Chris Kreider to the mix?

If management is not comfortable giving Kreider what it will take to keep him off the 2020 free agent market (five years, $30 million-plus?), then he would likely be traded either at this year’s deadline or at the draft. That’s when his value would be at its highest. But if Kreider is traded, there had better to be a premium return.

So Kreider and Skjei for Nylander, who could play either wing or center.

Who’s in?

[Dunny]

No, that's too steep for me. Pionk/Kreider - Kreider/Staal Sjkei/Zucc yeah, then I'm in.

[BrooksBurner]

Kreider and Skjei for Nylander...where do I sign?

[josh]

Kreider and Skjei for Nylander...where do I sign?

 

That’s a bit too much, IMO

[Pete]

That’s a bit too much, IMO

 

This confuses me. You think Skjei is trash and overpaid, and Krieder is ~6 years older than Nylander. So we get younger and offensively better, and lose a bad contract. Why is it too much?

 

I'd rather do that than something like Picks, Chytil, any D prospect. (Pionk I'd have traded yesterday in this deal, or any other).

[BrooksBurner]

That’s a bit too much, IMO

 

I don't see either player we give up as a cog on this team in 3 years. Nylander would be. I am also scared by what kind of deal Kreider might command in 2020. I have always liked him, but too inconsistent for big money.

[josh]

I don’t know if I view Nylander as much better than Kreider.

 

It’s overpaying via trade, on top of what it might cost to sign Nylander. That’s a huge overpayment.

I’ve already stated I wouldn’t trade our top prospects for Nylander.

 

Skjei, Fast/Namestnikov, pick.

 

Regardless of what I think, you are looking at dealing our top defender and top forward for Toronto’s 5th best forward? Ouch.

 

I know what Skjei is, but if others feel differently, take advantage. Adding Kreider shows people view Skjei closer to how I do than Rangers fans

[Pete]

I don’t know if I view Nylander as much better than Kreider.

 

It’s overpaying via trade, on top of what it might cost to sign Nylander. That’s a huge overpayment.

I’ve already stated I wouldn’t trade our top prospects for Nylander.

 

Skjei, Fast/Namestnikov, pick.

 

Regardless of what I think, you are looking at dealing our top defender and top forward for Toronto’s 5th best forward? Ouch.

 

I know what Skjei is, but if others feel differently, take advantage. Adding Kreider shows people view Skjei closer to how I do than Rangers fans

 

In the context of a trade piece, Skjei can't be both our top defender (he's not), and a third pair at best (he's not), in the same post. Even if Nylander is the same as Kreider, he's 6 years younger and right handed, something we sorely need. And we'd likely be getting a body back on defense to offset cap. Surely that warm body can replace Skjei....

[BrooksBurner]

The cost it takes to sign Nylander is more than made up by the money saved from Skjei's contract and resigning Kreider.

[josh]

I think we need Kreiders physicality, speed and net presence more than a RH shot.

 

“Top defender”? I can’t really call him a prospect. He’s still our biggest trade chip among defenders. (I’m not too high on Pionk + RFA isn’t appealing to TOR)

[Pete]

I find that deal more palatable than a deal for prospects, but I still don't want to pay Nylander +$7 mil.

[josh]

Can Toronto afford to take on Kreider and Skjei’s contracts? That makes their cap predicament worse

[Pete]

Can Toronto afford to take on Kreider and Skjei’s contracts? That makes their cap predicament worse

 

We might have to take Zaitsev.

[josh]

We might have to take Zaitsev.

 

If it’s Kreider + Skjei probably ends up being Hyman :puke:

Rather take Brown (Kapanen isn’t happening , like I suggested last season)

 

Love packaging, but would do separate deals with Skjei and Kreider

[BrooksBurner]

We might have to take Zaitsev.

 

Yeah dont see that happening.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Skjei and Zuccarello for Nylander. Keep Kreider

 

 

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