Friedman Rangers in Market for Center; Interested in Sean Monahan? Nope. Traded to Winnipeg

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Yup. Let's do it. Got Quick. Get Henrique. Get Pageau from the Islanders. See what Tyler Johnson would cost us. 

 

We're building a Suicide Squad!

 

Oh, it's suicide, alright.

[Pete]

21 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Classic example of correlation not causation.

 

Another example was that the Rangers happened to fall off a cliff defensively after Kakko got hurt. It was being pointed at as a core reason for the decline. Since he's come back, the Rangers are 18th in GA at 5v5. The correlation was there, but the causation was not. The reality is it had nothing to do with Kakko, and it had everything to do with goaltending and bad habits re-surfacing from the team et large.

When the injuries started it just became a bad mix of people in the wrong roles. I don't think a single player, like Kakko, changes much of the team 5v5 defense but when you're rolling out a 3rd line of Cullye-Brodz/Boner-Wheeler that's just a huge drop off a cliff defensively from what they had in the beginning of the year. Then Goody gets hurt, Vesey missed a game or 2 I think, and it's been patchwork.

 

Even now, I'd envision Cuylle-Tro-Kakko as a very good third line who can keep teams pinned and play solid D, and Tro would be the guy willing to shoot, but you've got nothing for the Bread line in that scenario.

[Pete]

dupe

Edited February 1 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

16 minutes ago, Pete said:

When the injuries started it just became a bad mix of people in the wrong roles. I don't think a single player, like Kakko, changes much of the team 5v5 defense but when you're rolling out a 3rd line of Cullye-Brodz/Boner-Wheeler that's just a huge drop off a cliff defensively from what they had in the beginning of the year. Then Goody gets hurt, Vesey missed a game or 2 I think, and it's been patchwork.

 

Even now, I'd envision Cuylle-Tro-Kakko as a very good third line who can keep teams pinned and play solid D, and Tro would be the guy willing to shoot, but you've got nothing for the Bread line in that scenario.

 

This is ultimately why I am OK paying a price to get a better center than the rentals. A Trocheck changes that 3rd line completely. Henrique and Monahan don't. It's not even a 3rd line with Trocheck. It's 2nd line quality.

 

I'm OK with being thinner on the right side if I can assemble 3 excellent centers. It's the most important position on the roster. I know you disagree with this, but it's why I'm OK dealing certain players to achieve that goal. I don't want to just give away a Miller or a Kakko...or a Lindgren...but you know, good centers drive their lines and greatly impact the game. I'll take my chances on a weaker defender on my 2nd or 3rd pairing, or a weaker 2nd/3rd RW, in exchange for that. A well-coached and functioning team plays defense as a team, and it takes the burden off of individual talent on the blue line.

Edited February 1 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

This is ultimately why I am OK paying a price to get a better center than the rentals. A Trocheck changes that 3rd line completely. Henrique and Monahan don't. It's not even a 3rd line with Trocheck. It's 2nd line quality.

 

I'm OK with being thinner on the right side if I can assemble 3 excellent centers. It's the most important position on the roster. I know you disagree with this, but it's why I'm OK dealing certain players to achieve that goal. I don't want to just give away a Miller or a Kakko...or a Lindgren...but you know, good centers drive their lines and greatly impact the game. I'll take my chances on a weaker defender on my 2nd or 3rd pairing, or a weaker 2nd/3rd RW, in exchange for that. A well-coached team plays defense as a team, and it takes the burden off of individual talent on the blue line.

The only way I'm trading Miller is for a young quality C, over the summer. That's not a move I would make at the deadline this year. There also needs to be a backfill plan not named Gus.

 

This team is loaded with winger prospects. I'd rather part with those, even Perrault, in the right deal.

 

I agree with you on the value of C vs wings, not so much D, but I also think they need to look at off the radar guys like Roslovic. He'd be a great 3rd line option IMO.

Edited February 1 by Pete

[RJWantsTheCup]

Henrique is definitely an upgrade on Brodzinski.   He can play the power play, kill penalties, wins face-offs and has plenty of experience.  

 

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

The only way I'm trading Miller is for a young quality C, over the summer. That's not a move I would make at the deadline this year. There also needs to be a backfill plan not named Gus.

 

This team is loaded with winger prospects. I'd rather part with those, even Perrault, in the right deal.

 

They don't even have to trade Miller to achieve the trade. I mostly include him in offers because I just assume teams would ask for him as part of a deal.

 

I agree on winger prospects, though I'd do what I could to keep Othmann out of the convo because he fits the mold of what the top 9 needs as it is currently constructed. I'm not saying no to Perreault/Kakko/1st/keepadding? for Ek, for example. Any presumed cap problems can be figured out in the summer.

[Fkm]

I’m all for moving miller for a quality young center. Seems like a trade like that could happen. Miller is still very young and has tons of potential. Somebody would jump at that, not sure whom specifically or for what but it’s completely possible

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

They don't even have to trade Miller to achieve the trade. I mostly include him in offers because I just assume teams would ask for him as part of a deal.

 

I agree on winger prospects, though I'd do what I could to keep Othmann out of the convo because he fits the mold of what the top 9 needs as it is currently constructed. I'm not saying no to Perreault/Kakko/1st/keepadding? for Ek, for example. Any presumed cap problems can be figured out in the summer.

That's the type of guy, yeah. Can't see Minnesota trading him though. 

[RangersIn7]

I’m not an advocate of trading Miller. And I’m firmly against doing it in season.

To me it’s a deal that has to be made in the summer.

 

But if they do it… you have to get another young player that you not only love, but fills a major role for the next 3-5 seasons and if it’s for a forward, you have to have another top-4 LHD in place as a solution.

 

Theyre not going to take pieces off the roster in season. I don’t believe it.

 

Ek though is a guy who you could seriously look at doing that for.

Edited February 1 by RangersIn7

[Fkm]

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

I’m not an advocate of trading Miller. And I’m firmly against doing it in season.

To me it’s a deal that has to be made in the summer.

 

But if they do it… you have to get another young player that you not only love, but fills a major role for the next 3-5 seasons and if it’s for a forward, you have to have another top-4 LHD in place as a solution.

 

Theyre not going to take pieces off the roster in season. I don’t believe it.

I agree with everything other than it being imperative they replace miller right away with an already developed top 4 lhd.  If the Rangers have come to the thought that miller won’t develop anymore than moving him for help up front in the forward you describe makes sense. It makes sense regardless if they have his replacement or not

 

i totally agree that it needs to be in the summer as does kakko. There is just so many more options come summer

[RangersIn7]

55 minutes ago, Fkm said:

I agree with everything other than it being imperative they replace miller right away with an already developed top 4 lhd.  If the Rangers have come to the thought that miller won’t develop anymore than moving him for help up front in the forward you describe makes sense. It makes sense regardless if they have his replacement or not

 

i totally agree that it needs to be in the summer as does kakko. There is just so many more options come summer

It’s absolutely imperative they replace him with a quality player and quickly. 
You can trade him to fill a hole up front, but then you have 20+ minutes a night to replace. And Lindgren needs a contract too. 
I don’t think they can play games there. 
They don’t have much on D coming up through the organization either.

So you have to bring in another LHD. 

[Fkm]

I agree with you.  Not all top 4’s are equal though.  The Rangers need to fill his hole with a professional defenseman who can log some minutes. They don’t have to get a proven top 4. They can’t replace his potential probably but they can replaced the flawed minutes he plays currently 

[RangersIn7]

14 minutes ago, Fkm said:

I agree with you.  Not all top 4’s are equal though.  The Rangers need to fill his hole with a professional defenseman who can log some minutes. They don’t have to get a proven top 4. They can’t replace his potential probably but they can replaced the flawed minutes he plays currently 

I agree.

And they don’t possess that asset internally. So they’ll have to go get it. 

Edited February 1 by RangersIn7

[Fkm]

Haha. I don’t think they have a legit top 4 Lhd on their roster now with miller. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Fkm said:

Haha. I don’t think they have a legit top 4 Lhd on their roster now with miller. 

That would be because you're operating from a recency bias. 

 

If you're expecting a perfect player, one does not exist. He showed he was a legitimate top four defenseman last season. He's having a rough season. This is a case of a good player playing bad hockey.

[The Dude]

23 hours ago, Pete said:

If you think a guy is done developing at 24 and isn't going to learn anything or get better, then there's nothing to talk about.

You don't learn much more about playing defense at 24. If you don't have the basic concepts down, you're never going to.  Miller doesn't have the basic concepts down.  

 

Let's reminisce back a long ways. Tom Poti joined the Rangers at age 24. His 4th year in the league. He wound up being a consistent (roughly) 30+ point D man, that couldn't defend for shit. He was booed the second he came here. I can almost guarantee you had zero patience for that soft poke checking POS. Nobody expected his D game to come around.  It was expected that that was just it. And it was. 

 

This is just how it goes. Off tge top of my head I can't think of many D men that really put it together after age 24 to become more solid. Dahlin to an extent?  He's only 23 and he's had huge offensive stats. Still not good defensively,  but maybe a bit better than he was. But that a guy that has a 70 point season backing him. 

 

Can we name these late bloomers to compare? The subject being offensive D men that suck defensively, that put it together and became competent defensively after age 24?

 

I'm being honest and serious. There's gotta be a few. Where's the list of D-men that took longer to develop in today's NHL?

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, The Dude said:

You don't learn much more about playing defense at 24.

Stopped reading here, sorry. It's just not true. Especially for a dude who started playing defense in high school.... That path is normally set 4-5 years prior. 

Edited February 2 by Pete

[Albatrosss]

37 minutes ago, Pete said:

Stopped reading here, sorry. It's just not true. Especially for a dude who started playing defense in high school.... That path is normally set 4-5 years prior. 

What does that have to do with anything?  He’s been playing defense for 8 years. If he hasn’t learned the position by now, he never will. 

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

What does that have to do with anything?  He’s been playing defense for 8 years. If he hasn’t learned the position by now, he never will. 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Stopped reading here, sorry. It's just not true. Especially for a dude who started playing defense in high school.... That path is normally set 4-5 years prior. 

Of course you did. Read the rest please,  or we can stop responding to each other completely on this topic.

 

Don't pick and choose the little factoid as the entire basis of a post, without reading the rest.YTheres more meat to the post to add to such a take. 

[BrooksBurner]

For me it’s not that Miller can’t get better on defense. It’s that the ceiling for how much better he can get has lowered substantially. That’s based on seeing him a click or three behind in real time when it comes to processing the game. It’s why a guy with his size, speed, and reach gets beat so much 1 on 1 by players smaller and slower than him, and why he is so frequently out of position in no man’s land. Hockey IQ and smarts in real time with sometimes milliseconds to make decisions or anticipate what’s going to happen next is probably the hardest thing to improve upon. It’s frequently the difference between being OK and being good or great. It’s not as easy as just hitting the tape or being coached. Fox, for example, you could tell from day one possessed incredible smarts. He was going to be great regardless of the coach, despite lacking every single one of the physical traits Miller possesses.
 

Physically deficient players can hit the training room harder and with more effort to improve physically. It’s more quantifiable and much easier to do. Ask Lafreniere. But not everyone can think the game well enough to hit lofty ceilings. That’s Miller to me, and it’s also Kakko. That’s not to say they are dumb or anything, or that they are bad players, but the original top line/top pair ceiling had/has to be adjusted significantly to account for it. If I was setting my ceiling on them today, it’s a good mid-6 ceiling for Kakko, and a good #3 ceiling for Miller. Miller is playing 2nd pairing today, but I don’t think he’s a good one yet. There’s a difference. The warts I just don’t think are correctable enough to fly too high.

[The Dude]

8 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

For me it’s not that Miller can’t get better on defense. It’s that the ceiling for how much better he can get has lowered substantially. That’s based on seeing him a click or three behind in real time when it comes to processing the game. It’s why a guy with his size, speed, and reach gets beat so much 1 on 1 by players smaller and slower than him, and why he is so frequently out of position in no man’s land. Hockey IQ and smarts in real time with sometimes milliseconds to make decisions or anticipate what’s going to happen next is probably the hardest thing to improve upon. It’s frequently the difference between being OK and being good or great. It’s not as easy as just hitting the tape or being coached. Fox, for example, you could tell from day one possessed incredible smarts. He was going to be great regardless of the coach, despite lacking every single one of the physical traits Miller possesses.
 

Physically deficient players can hit the training room harder and with more effort to improve physically. It’s more quantifiable and much easier to do. Ask Lafreniere. But not everyone can think the game well enough to hit lofty ceilings. That’s Miller to me, and it’s also Kakko. That’s not to say they are dumb or anything, or that they are bad players, but the original top line/top pair ceiling had/has to be adjusted significantly to account for it. If I was setting my ceiling on them today, it’s a good mid-6 ceiling for Kakko, and a good #3 ceiling for Miller. Miller is playing 2nd pairing today, but I don’t think he’s a good one yet. There’s a difference. The warts I just don’t think are correctable enough to fly too high.

Right now he's a lower tier 2nd pairing guy.  He's a top tier 2nd pairing guy when he's playing well,  and that only due to his offensive ability. 

 

Obviously I'm selling him as top tier 2nd pairing guy. Otherwise,  who would want him? 

 

I don't think he improves past that ceiling. That defensive game is not going to be learned for some of the reasons you have just stated.  It's also a natural trait to understand and anticipate what a player is going to,  or can do.

 

The reactions by him this year are worse than in the past. Body language is that if someone who doesn't really give a fuck.

 

On offense it's shows more. He takes the easy way out, gives up very easily on plays, by not thinking about what he's doing with the puck on his stick. And that's everywhere on the ice. Neutral zone,  on the blue line or in deep.  If the play isn't easy and plain as day to make, he will kinda just shovel the puck off to nobody and skate away, or put it in someone's feet that has no room/time/ ability to accept a pass, which becomes a turn over. 

 

IDK if he's pouting because he's not even getting PP2 minutes, behind Gustafsson (talk about having the coaches trust) and Trouba. Or there is something personal.  His body language and play isn't as enthusiastic as it was in prior years.  He's the equivalent of mopey Zibanejad mide. 

 

[lefty9]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

For me it’s not that Miller can’t get better on defense. It’s that the ceiling for how much better he can get has lowered substantially. That’s based on seeing him a click or three behind in real time when it comes to processing the game. It’s why a guy with his size, speed, and reach gets beat so much 1 on 1 by players smaller and slower than him, and why he is so frequently out of position in no man’s land. Hockey IQ and smarts in real time with sometimes milliseconds to make decisions or anticipate what’s going to happen next is probably the hardest thing to improve upon. It’s frequently the difference between being OK and being good or great. It’s not as easy as just hitting the tape or being coached. Fox, for example, you could tell from day one possessed incredible smarts. He was going to be great regardless of the coach, despite lacking every single one of the physical traits Miller possesses.
 

Physically deficient players can hit the training room harder and with more effort to improve physically. It’s more quantifiable and much easier to do. Ask Lafreniere. But not everyone can think the game well enough to hit lofty ceilings. That’s Miller to me, and it’s also Kakko. That’s not to say they are dumb or anything, or that they are bad players, but the original top line/top pair ceiling had/has to be adjusted significantly to account for it. If I was setting my ceiling on them today, it’s a good mid-6 ceiling for Kakko, and a good #3 ceiling for Miller. Miller is playing 2nd pairing today, but I don’t think he’s a good one yet. There’s a difference. The warts I just don’t think are correctable enough to fly too high.

I am way more disappointed with Kakko than Miller play

Miller has great assets but at times he has some brain farts ,plus he doesn't use his size enough ,can you please use those good wheels and run  someone over once in a while

 

[RJWantsTheCup]

Miller needs a sports therapist or whatever they are called.  His problem is mental and a lack of hockey iq.