Friedman Clayton Keller's Future in Arizona Unclear

[BrooksBurner]

14 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

 

                        Kreider

 

Zibanejad       Trocheck       Keller

 

                          Fox

 

 

                        Cuylle

 

Panarin           Chytil           Kakko

 

                        Jones

This is what I was envisioning when I posted, except two things.

 

Kakko and Keller flipped.

 

Kreider, Fox PP1 mainstays and swap between the two PP lines. Spell Kreider/Fox when needed. In particular, I don’t see why Kreider ever has to leave the PP. I’m pretty sure he can stand in front of the net for a couple minutes.

Edited May 25, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Drew a Penalty]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

This is what I was envisioning when I posted, except two things.

 

Kakko and Keller flipped.

 

Kreider, Fox PP1 mainstays and swap between the two PP lines. Spell Kreider/Fox when needed. In particular, I don’t see why Kreider ever has to leave the PP. I’m pretty sure he can stand in front of the net for a couple minutes.

 

I'm fine with that.

[Phil]

7 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

This is what I was envisioning when I posted, except two things.

 

Kakko and Keller flipped.

 

Kreider, Fox PP1 mainstays and swap between the two PP lines. Spell Kreider/Fox when needed. In particular, I don’t see why Kreider ever has to leave the PP. I’m pretty sure he can stand in front of the net for a couple minutes.

 

OK, but can we still leave Trocheck somewhere in the Pacific?

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

OK, but can we still leave Trocheck somewhere in the Pacific?

 

 

Can you fill me in on the disdain for Trocheck on the PP? He was tied with Panarin for 2nd on the team in PPG with 9, only behind Zibanejad. That's good production out of the bumper spot?

[Phil]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

 

Can you fill me in on the disdain for Trocheck on the PP? He was tied with Panarin for 2nd on the team in PPG with 9, only behind Zibanejad. That's good production out of the bumper spot?

 

It's not Trocheck on the PP. It's just Trocheck. Just don't like him.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

It's not Trocheck on the PP. It's just Trocheck. Just don't like him.

He’s a dumb shot chucker, but Strome was a perimeter fairy on skates. Pick your poison I guess. Just can’t win at 2C. Now everyone wants Chytil slotted up. Who’d have thunk it? 

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

He’s a dumb shot chucker, but Strome was a perimeter fairy on skates. Pick your poison I guess. Just can’t win at 2C. Now everyone wants Chytil slotted up. Who’d have thunk it? 

 

Long-term, Trocheck fits more of what I want to see on the ice, but I still don't like the player or the deal and I think he's a poor fit given the likelihood of dramatic culture change here.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

I am a big fan of Keller and if Drury can get him, its not 'no matter the cost' level but I absolutely give quite a bit for him

 

guy was a gem for gamblers if you were betting prop bets lol. feel like i always hit plus money on him getting shot totals, points, etc.

Edited May 25, 2023 by BlairBettsBlocksEverything

[Costa]

Keller is a LW. He comes to the Rangers he's either gonna be stuck on the 3rd line or be forced to play on his off wing. Just like ALF and you see how well that's going...

[Shane Falco]

1 hour ago, Costa said:

Keller is a LW. He comes to the Rangers he's either gonna be stuck on the 3rd line or be forced to play on his off wing. Just like ALF and you see how well that's going...

 

He's a RW but can play both. Rangers wouldn't get a player like that not to give him top 6 minutes. 

[The Dude]

18 hours ago, Kreiders Rider said:

 

He's a RW but can play both. Rangers wouldn't get a player like that not to give him top 6 minutes. 

Pretty sure hes also played center. 

 

Which maybe makes Chytil expendable in a trade. I said elsewhere, but Chytil and Lafrenière for Keller and a little something coming back may work.  

 

Keller being able to play ever forward position gives options on what to do with the lineup if you are moving Chytil.

 

Adding Keller to an already soft forward group,  doesn't change much, besides adding more skill.

 

So, with that said, replace the lower tier, soft skill, with upper tier soft skill and it looks a little better. Chytils new contract makes him an attractive trade option (for the Rangers) if they are looking to upgrade in skill.

 

I like both Chytil and Keller,  but it's more of the same. Need that gritty, shooter RW more than Keller IMO. If they were blowing it up? Shit yeah, I'd be all about Keller. 

 

They really need to find a Zach Hyman type. Too bad he was a success with Edmonton. Really thought that was going to flop. 

 

 

 

[Costa]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

Pretty sure hes also played center. 

 

Which maybe makes Chytil expendable in a trade. I said elsewhere, but Chytil and Lafrenière for Keller and a little something coming back may work.  

 

Keller being able to play ever forward position gives options on what to do with the lineup if you are moving Chytil.

 

Adding Keller to an already soft forward group,  doesn't change much, besides adding more skill.

 

So, with that said, replace the lower tier, soft skill, with upper tier soft skill and it looks a little better. Chytils new contract makes him an attractive trade option (for the Rangers) if they are looking to upgrade in skill.

 

I like both Chytil and Keller,  but it's more of the same. Need that gritty, shooter RW more than Keller IMO. If they were blowing it up? Shit yeah, I'd be all about Keller. 

 

They really need to find a Zach Hyman type. Too bad he was a success with Edmonton. Really thought that was going to flop. 

 

 

 

 

if they can get one of 'Zona's 4 3's (preferably a high 3), that might be enough....

[Keirik]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, The Dude said:

Pretty sure hes also played center. 

 

Which maybe makes Chytil expendable in a trade. I said elsewhere, but Chytil and Lafrenière for Keller and a little something coming back may work.  

 

Keller being able to play ever forward position gives options on what to do with the lineup if you are moving Chytil.

 

Adding Keller to an already soft forward group,  doesn't change much, besides adding more skill.

 

So, with that said, replace the lower tier, soft skill, with upper tier soft skill and it looks a little better. Chytils new contract makes him an attractive trade option (for the Rangers) if they are looking to upgrade in skill.

 

I like both Chytil and Keller,  but it's more of the same. Need that gritty, shooter RW more than Keller IMO. If they were blowing it up? Shit yeah, I'd be all about Keller. 

 

They really need to find a Zach Hyman type. Too bad he was a success with Edmonton. Really thought that was going to flop. 

 

 

 

Chytil and Keller are not even remotely the same.

First, Keller doesn’t play much center. He’s a hell of a lot more versatile. He primarily plays the wing. Either wing. 

Second is that Keller has put up 20+ goals three times in his short NHL career to cheats one. Keller is miles above Chytil in terms of production. It’s not even close. 
 

 

If Keller was/is  an option, I’d go pretty far to trade two chips of ours with potential for Keller since he solves a big problem at RW. It’s not a lateral move at all. He’s a bonafide top 6, if not top 3. 

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Keirik said:

Chytil and Keller are not even remotely the same.

First, Keller doesn’t play much center. He’s a hell of a lot more versatile. He primarily plays the wing. Either wing. 

Second is that Keller has put up 20+ goals three times in his short NHL career to cheats one. Keller is miles above Chytil in terms of production. It’s not even close. 
 

 

If Keller was/is  an option, I’d go pretty far to trade two chips of ours with potential for Keller since he solves a big problem at RW. It’s not a lateral move at all. He’s a bonafide top 6, if not top 3. 

Keller started at center.

 

Keller is better than Chytil. I said this, hence the production.  But they play a similar style.  They carry the puck deep and will sometimes go the extra mile and go to the the net with the puck. Neither are very good defensively. But both play more of a dangler style,  rather than the north/south style the team needs.....Which was the point.

 

I never said it's a lateral move. I said it's more of the same type of player. Which I then elaborated on in saying they need more grit/shooter. 

 

I like both players, but with Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Chytil and maybe Lafrenière in the top 6 already,  they need a different type of player to break up how small they play. 

[Keirik]

6 hours ago, The Dude said:

Keller started at center.

 

Keller is better than Chytil. I said this, hence the production.  But they play a similar style.  They carry the puck deep and will sometimes go the extra mile and go to the the net with the puck. Neither are very good defensively. But both play more of a dangler style,  rather than the north/south style the team needs.....Which was the point.

 

I never said it's a lateral move. I said it's more of the same type of player. Which I then elaborated on in saying they need more grit/shooter. 

 

I like both players, but with Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Chytil and maybe Lafrenière in the top 6 already,  they need a different type of player to break up how small they play. 

He didn’t start out as a center in the NHL.  His rookie year in 82 games, he took 78 draws at center while playing 18 minutes a night. He’s been predominantly a winger his entire NHL career with some sparse center duty. 
 

 And again, it’s not the same type of player. One is an elite offensive player and the other is Chytil. You’re simplifying it just down to way too basic. 
 

 And never mind the aspect of if we are getting a Keller, we are probably trading a person like LaFreniere along the way. They aren’t getting him for a bag of pucks.

[BrooksBurner]

10 hours ago, Keirik said:

Chytil and Keller are not even remotely the same.

First, Keller doesn’t play much center. He’s a hell of a lot more versatile. He primarily plays the wing. Either wing. 

Second is that Keller has put up 20+ goals three times in his short NHL career to cheats one. Keller is miles above Chytil in terms of production. It’s not even close. 
 

 

If Keller was/is  an option, I’d go pretty far to trade two chips of ours with potential for Keller since he solves a big problem at RW. It’s not a lateral move at all. He’s a bonafide top 6, if not top 3. 

 

100%

 

I don't find Keller and Chytil similar in play style either. Keller is a far better playmaker with great vision and hands. He's shifty on his skates. Chytil has great speed, for his size too, but he is more straight line. Not a shifty player. Keller uses his shiftiness to create space and possess the puck. Chytil uses his size to shield defenders and possess the puck.

 

They both have great shots. That's about the only commonality.

 

[BrooksBurner]

Miller gets Arizona's attention. Chytil probably doesn't. That's because Miller has a much higher ceiling (two way Norris defender) if given the keys to the defense, even if he's less likely to hit his ceiling than Chytil hitting his ceiling (mid-tier 1C). Miller won't get the keys here (Fox). He'll get them in Arizona.

 

The question is how much needs to accompany Miller to get it done, and what the Rangers' plan is for cap and defensive replacement.

[Pete]

50 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Miller gets Arizona's attention. Chytil probably doesn't. That's because Miller has a much higher ceiling (two way Norris defender) if given the keys to the defense, even if he's less likely to hit his ceiling than Chytil hitting his ceiling (mid-tier 1C). Miller won't get the keys here (Fox). He'll get them in Arizona.

 

The question is how much needs to accompany Miller to get it done, and what the Rangers' plan is for cap and defensive replacement.

About the only place Chytil is a 1C is Arizona. That's not his ceiling. He's more like mid-tier 2C, but reality is he's probably lower-end because he's not good defensively at all, or in the dot.

[BrooksBurner]

23 minutes ago, Pete said:

About the only place Chytil is a 1C is Arizona. That's not his ceiling. He's more like mid-tier 2C, but reality is he's probably lower-end because he's not good defensively at all, or in the dot.

 

He’s already potting mid-tier 2C numbers, so we’ll just agree to disagree he’s hit his ceiling at 23. His ceiling is higher than whatever his play is now.

 

The probability I would give Miller hitting the lofty ceiling I gave is around 10%. Higher on Arizona. Maybe 20%. Chytil is probably around 50% in either case.

Edited May 30, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

He’s already potting mid-tier 2C numbers, so we’ll just agree to disagree he’s hit his ceiling at 23. His ceiling is higher than whatever his play is now.

24 when the season starts, going in to year 7. Hard to expect exponential growth. 40 points isn't mid tier 2C, IMO.

 

Quote

The probability I would give Miller hitting the lofty ceiling I gave is around 10%. Higher on Arizona. Maybe 20%. Chytil is probably around 50% in either case.

I'm not interested in "probabilities" you pulled from thin air.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

24 when the season starts, going in to year 7. Hard to expect exponential growth. 40 points isn't mid tier 2C, IMO.

 

I'm not interested in "probabilities" you pulled from thin air.

 

So ultimately you agree Chytil doesn’t move the needle enough for Keller. Miller does.

[Pete]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

So ultimately you agree Chytil doesn’t move the needle enough for Keller. Miller does.

Ultimately I think it'll take them both to get Keller +.

 

Or Miller + Laf for a lesser return.

[BrooksBurner]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

Ultimately I think it'll take them both to get Keller +.

 

Or Miller + Laf for a lesser return.

@Drew a Penalty was probably pretty close with Miller/Laf for Keller/2nd. I think a little more than that comes with Keller, at least 1 more 2nd round pick, but it’s close enough to realistic.

 

Inserting Chytil instead of Laf is probably about the same return. I think Arizona would value Laf higher because of age, previous draft pedigree, and supposed ceiling if put in an environment where he can be “the guy”.

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, Keirik said:

He didn’t start out as a center in the NHL.  His rookie year in 82 games, he took 78 draws at center while playing 18 minutes a night. He’s been predominantly a winger his entire NHL career with some sparse center duty. 
 

 And again, it’s not the same type of player. One is an elite offensive player and the other is Chytil. You’re simplifying it just down to way too basic. 
 

 And never mind the aspect of if we are getting a Keller, we are probably trading a person like LaFreniere along the way. They aren’t getting him for a bag of pucks.

Holy shit guy. I said he's elite compared to Chytil. I said they play a similar game. I didn't say they produce the same. One is just better at the game than the other.

 

What's the disconnect? Keller is better than Chytil.  That's why I'd be trading Chytil and Lafrenière for him. I clearly said he's the upgrade. "Lower tier skill for upper tier skill". 

 

As for the center thing. I recall he started as a center, but I definitely thought he played way more than that. So, sorry for that. 

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

100%

 

I don't find Keller and Chytil similar in play style either. Keller is a far better playmaker with great vision and hands. He's shifty on his skates. Chytil has great speed, for his size too, but he is more straight line. Not a shifty player. Keller uses his shiftiness to create space and possess the puck. Chytil uses his size to shield defenders and possess the puck.

 

They both have great shots. That's about the only commonality.

 

Meh. Keller has turned more into a North South guy. He's definitely more shifty and finds open ice for himself when he doesn't have the puck. Certainly the better playmaker.

 

But they kinda score similar goals and go to the same places on the ice. Keller just does better with his opportunities because he's just better. He can roof it high in a tight spot, where Chytil won't even get the shot off.  He can thread passes through defenders like Panarin.

 

He has upper/mid tier skill, where Chytil has upper/lower tier skill-  lower/upper tier skill.  The differences of an 80 point player and a 40-50 point player.