It's Time to Have the Lafrenière Conversation

[Phil]

200+ games in, with very little to show for it. He's not Kravtsov level bad, because he's at least an NHL player, but it's pretty clear he's never going to live up to the first overall billing and doesn't really seem to have a role on this roster. He just exists, and not very effectively, either, given his boxcars in this Devils series.

 

I have no idea where to go here, but I can't help but feel the time is now to pull the chute.

[Sharpshooter]

He gave me some hope how he finished last season and how he was in the playoffs. This season and the postseason was a complete regression. What little hope was mustered is now completely gone. You say he's at least an NHL player, but sometimes it doesn't even look like it. lol

[Gravesy]

I just don't think he gives you anything in return that changes much if anything at all. 

I'm leaning towards paying him for what he is and just hope against all available evidence that he's some sort of late bloomer. 

What can you realistically hope to get in a trade? You're certainly not getting an established player that makes a real difference to this roster.

[Pete]

Haven't we been having this conversation for 3 years?

 

There's no there there. There's no speed, there's no one-on-one skill, there's no vision or creativity, there's some marginal physicality but not in a meaningful way.

 

If this kid wasn't a number one overall he would be a journeyman third liner. Actually, he's probably going to wind up being a journeyman 3rd line or his entire career. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Gravesy said:

I just don't think he gives you anything in return that changes much if anything at all. 

I'm leaning towards paying him for what he is and just hope against all available evidence that he's some sort of late bloomer. 

What can you realistically hope to get in a trade? You're certainly not getting an established player that makes a real difference to this roster.

This makes a lot of sense, but I just don't see it happening here. There's nothing here but unfulfilled promise. The fan base will never forgive him for not being a real number one overall, he needs to go somewhere else. 

[Sharpshooter]

I don't even think a legit coach will help. He kind of is what he is at this point. It's been a few years and he hasn't gotten better at anything. A lot of times he doesn't even look like an NHL player, let alone a third liner.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I thought we were done with this conversation at this point? The last glimmer of hope we had after last year's playoffs got pissed away this year. There's just nothing here that's worth keeping.

 

And I don't care about the return anymore. Get a solid bottom 6 player with a lower AAV in return and I'm good.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

28 minutes ago, Phil said:

He's not Kravtsov level bad, because he's at least an NHL player,

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

23 minutes ago, Gravesy said:

I'm leaning towards paying him for what he is and just hope against all available evidence that he's some sort of late bloomer. 

One can hope, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

 

He's no late bloomer, he was a really early bloomer. He peaked in juniors and never improved after that.

[Ozzy]

You guys are probably right, but I'd still like to see him play under a system, and a different voice.  It may not help, but I'd just like to see one season under some type of structure.  I'm pretty sure his new contract isn't going to be a whole lot, but if we do end up bringing in JQ, I would really like to see him get his hands on Yukon to see what if anything he could get out of him.

 

If that doesn't work, then it would sit easier with me.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

You guys are probably right, but I'd still like to see him play under a system, and a different voice.  It may not help, but I'd just like to see one season under some type of structure.  I'm pretty sure his new contract isn't going to be a whole lot, but if we do end up bringing in JQ, I would really like to see him get his hands on Yukon to see what if anything he could get out of him.

 

If that doesn't work, then it would sit easier with me.

I feel the same way, and I think he'll get another shot under a new (better) coach.

[LindG1000]

19 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

I don't even think a legit coach will help. He kind of is what he is at this point. It's been a few years and he hasn't gotten better at anything. A lot of times he doesn't even look like an NHL player, let alone a third liner.

 

I'm willing to say the following:

 

1. Lafreniere has not had a real NHL coach in his three seasons.

2. Lafreniere is going to be a better bang-for-the-buck option than almost anyone else we could slot into the openings in our lineup

3. Lafreniere will not fetch anything that makes our lineup appreciably better next season in a trade. If we want futures - great, that's fine, but that's what we're getting if we trade him.

4. The juxtaposition between Lafreniere and Hughes could not be more stark than it was in this series. I hope that pissed him off. I doubt it did though.

 

I'm rolling the dice on him largely on circumstance more than anything else. Give Q or Lavi a year with the guy, let the cap relax, see if it works. And if not, at least when you ultimately move him as a sweetener or whatever, you're getting a guy back that makes a difference and not just a random late-1st or whatever.

[Morphinity 2.0]

30 minutes ago, Pete said:

Haven't we been having this conversation for 3 years?

 

There's no there there. There's no speed, there's no one-on-one skill, there's no vision or creativity, there's some marginal physicality but not in a meaningful way.

 

If this kid wasn't a number one overall he would be a journeyman third liner. Actually, he's probably going to wind up being a journeyman 3rd line or his entire career. 

Yep, there's nothing there. Absolutely nothing.

[Br4d]

26 minutes ago, Pete said:

This makes a lot of sense, but I just don't see it happening here. There's nothing here but unfulfilled promise. The fan base will never forgive him for not being a real number one overall, he needs to go somewhere else. 

 

So let's say Laffy has a 10% chance of fulfilling his potential as a #1OA right now.  That's probably ballpark for where a guy taken #1 who isn't producing winds up after year 3 in the NHL.

 

What exactly are the Rangers going to get for him in a trade that equals that unlikely but possible chance of a star player?

 

I just don't see how letting him go for less than a 1st round pick is acceptable at this point and I'm not sure the Rangers will see that kind of return.

 

Obviously if the Canadiens are willing to give up a 2024 1st plus something for him we should take the trade but other than that it's better to hold onto our 3rd line LW who might turn into something big down the road.

 

You think Ottawa regrets trading Mika Zibanejad right about now?

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I'm willing to say the following:

 

1. Lafreniere has not had a real NHL coach in his three seasons.

2. Lafreniere is going to be a better bang-for-the-buck option than almost anyone else we could slot into the openings in our lineup

3. Lafreniere will not fetch anything that makes our lineup appreciably better next season in a trade. If we want futures - great, that's fine, but that's what we're getting if we trade him.

4. The juxtaposition between Lafreniere and Hughes could not be more stark than it was in this series. I hope that pissed him off. I doubt it did though.

 

I'm rolling the dice on him largely on circumstance more than anything else. Give Q or Lavi a year with the guy, let the cap relax, see if it works. And if not, at least when you ultimately move him as a sweetener or whatever, you're getting a guy back that makes a difference and not just a random late-1st or whatever.

 

Yeah, G Man...I can live with this.  And this makes total sense.

 

It's a little difficult to be sensible right now, because everyone wants to just give this team the electric chair....but I think this pretty much hits on all cylinders.

[Phil]

42 minutes ago, Gravesy said:

I just don't think he gives you anything in return that changes much if anything at all. 

I'm leaning towards paying him for what he is and just hope against all available evidence that he's some sort of late bloomer. 

What can you realistically hope to get in a trade? You're certainly not getting an established player that makes a real difference to this roster.

 

Great. I agree. I still do it, if only to get a natural RW and open a natural roster spot for Othmann.

[LindG1000]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

 

Yeah, G Man...I can live with this.  And this makes total sense.

 

It's a little difficult to be sensible right now, because everyone wants to just give this team the electric chair....but I think this pretty much hits on all cylinders.

Dude, I'm with them on that. I've spent far too long wondering if there's a taker for Trouba, if we should buy out Goodrow, who can take Panarin, how much blackmail do we need to get Tkachuk to leave Florida, is there a Laf+whomever combo that changes points 2 and 3 on my list, etc.

 

There are some things that are pretty black-and-white to me. One of them is that it is clear management views next season as either the last or second to last season (depending how you view contracts) of the older core. The other is that Lafreniere hasn't earned a big contract and given all the above...is probably a decent risk-reward play.

[LindG1000]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Great. I agree. I still do it, if only to get a natural RW and open a natural roster spot for Othmann.

Devil's advocate here - if opening a natural roster spot for Othmann as a 3LW just doing to him what we did to Lafreniere?

[Phil]

13 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I'm willing to say the following:

 

1. Lafreniere has not had a real NHL coach in his three seasons.

2. Lafreniere is going to be a better bang-for-the-buck option than almost anyone else we could slot into the openings in our lineup

3. Lafreniere will not fetch anything that makes our lineup appreciably better next season in a trade. If we want futures - great, that's fine, but that's what we're getting if we trade him.

4. The juxtaposition between Lafreniere and Hughes could not be more stark than it was in this series. I hope that pissed him off. I doubt it did though.

 

I'm rolling the dice on him largely on circumstance more than anything else. Give Q or Lavi a year with the guy, let the cap relax, see if it works. And if not, at least when you ultimately move him as a sweetener or whatever, you're getting a guy back that makes a difference and not just a random late-1st or whatever.

 

1. OK? There's nothing about him as a player that suggests better coaching will produce noticeable results.

2. Wild, unfalsifiable assertion. You don't know this.

3. Wild, unfalsifiable assertion. You also don't know this. This also completely ignores the context of trading him to balance the lineup better. If he gets flipped for an aggressive, faster RW, albeit one with limited offensive upside, and Othmann comes in to backfill at 3LW, who's to say the Rangers don't look noticeably improved next year?

4. My own wild, unfalsifiable assertion: it won't. He's a clown. He's just happy to be here.

[Phil]

7 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Devil's advocate here - if opening a natural roster spot for Othmann as a 3LW just doing to him what we did to Lafreniere?

 

Nope. Othmann isn't a first overall pick with game-changing talent expectations.

[Sharpshooter]

If some are expecting Othmann to be close to the second coming of Jagr or something, you're going to be very disapointed. lol

[siddious]

Explore trades. I’m calling Montreal to see if they will over pay because he’s a frenchy. 
 

if you can’t get value back for him, re-sign him and pay him like a 3rd liner and hope he out performs it. 
 

honestly I can’t even imagine what the bargaining chips for him would be other than 1st OA pick. He’s done nothing in the nhl.

 

if he sucks next year you bump him to the 4th or scratch him and call the experiment. 

[Pete]

24 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

So let's say Laffy has a 10% chance of fulfilling his potential as a #1OA right now.  That's probably ballpark for where a guy taken #1 who isn't producing winds up after year 3 in the NHL.

 

What exactly are the Rangers going to get for him in a trade that equals that unlikely but possible chance of a star player?

 

I just don't see how letting him go for less than a 1st round pick is acceptable at this point and I'm not sure the Rangers will see that kind of return.

 

Obviously if the Canadiens are willing to give up a 2024 1st plus something for him we should take the trade but other than that it's better to hold onto our 3rd line LW who might turn into something big down the road.

 

You think Ottawa regrets trading Mika Zibanejad right about now?

I'm tired of the Zib comparison because it doesn't hold much water for Chytil and holds less for Lafreniere.

 

Frankly I'd rather give Othmann Laffy icetime and take what you can get in trade. Nobody's asking for a superstar in return. He simply can't be on this roster next season, and you can't give him away for nothing. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

If some are expecting Othmann to be close to the second coming of Jagr or something, you're going to be very disapointed. lol

I'm expecting him to be a bottom/middle six left wing, which is exactly the slot he'd be sliding into. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Pete

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Pete said:

I'm expecting him to be a bottom six left wing, which is exactly the slot he'd be sliding into. 

Yes. As you just said probably a Lafreniere replacement if (when) he continues to suck.