2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[The Dude]

38 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I’m interested to see how Lafreniere responds to the new coaching staff. Quinn, while he seemed like a motivator, I don’t think commanded the respect of a room the way a proven winner like Laviolette does. He also seems like the kind of coach who wants to build relationships with his players and entrust players with specific roles. Lafreniere, no doubt, was probably one of the main topics of discussion when it came to his discussions with Drury prior to accepting the job. Because as others have said, it is imperative, both for short and long term success, to get this kid going. And no disrespect to Gallant, he was a hands off guy who left the room to the players. Laviolette is not that. 
 

I think the ideal situation for him is to probably begin the year playing with Zibanejad on the top line. As others have said, and I agree with, I’d slide Kreider down to a line with Trocheck and give Lafreniere a chance for top-line time on his proper side for maybe the first time ever. I know the road block has been there where Lafreniere hasn’t been able to jump Panarin and Kreider on that side in the past, and his only road to the Top-6 has been to play on the other side. And I don’t disagree that he could have done a better job of figuring it out. But I do think it’s time to give him a try on that side, in the Top-6, with Kreider getting pushed down to a 3W slot. His offense won’t die because of it, and he will still collect his cookies on the PP anyway. 
 

As others have said, motivation has been a major thing I’d like to see improve with him. I think Laviolette may be a good match for him. He has gotten the most out of younger guys in his prior stops. I think from Day 1, he needs to let Lafreniere know that this team needs him to take the next step, and that he’ll be given every opportunity to succeed. If it means pumping his tires a bit, sure, go for it. I trust this staff coming in to get him going a bit. I really do.

I think this is where Peca steps in and has to reinvent the kids game and mindset. 

[Br4d]

I think Lafreniere has to be job one for Laviolette.  The future without him is really bleak after '25 or '26.

 

The Rangers are going to have to develop the #1OA because we're unlikely to see that kind of talent potential come our way again soon.

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

I think Lafreniere has to be job one for Laviolette.  The future without him is really bleak after '25 or '26.

 

The Rangers are going to have to develop the #1OA because we're unlikely to see that kind of talent potential come our way again soon.

It won’t be. The Laviolette hire told us that Drury still sees a window to win, and that he doesn’t care too much if it sandbags the years after. He’s also inevitably going to throw away more draft capital at the deadline for the third year in a row. I don’t think people are really grasping how much is being sacrificed to continue to go for it. FAFO.

Edited July 19, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

11 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Playing as a young kid with established great players that absorb attention, time, and space helps too. Those best defenders are gonna pay attention to the devil they know. 

 

Surely there’s some garbage time stat padding too for him.

 

 

It doesn’t cover the full disparity. Hard to quantify too. 
 

And I’m not at all saying you’re wrong. You could totally be right.

Just don’t at all feel it’s this absolute, infallible, set in stone, forgone conclusion you think it is. 
Or that there’s no chance he figures it out. 

Look, regarding Stutzle specifically, before last season I listened to preseason interviews on podcasts and the Senators players to a man said that he was the best/most talented player on the team. Think about that. 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Pete

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

It won’t be. The Laviolette hire told us that Drury still sees a window to win, and that he doesn’t care too much if it sandbags the years after. He’s also inevitably going to throw away more draft capital at the deadline for the third year in a row. I don’t think people are really grasping how much is being sacrificed to continue to go for it. FAFO.

Right, and anyone paying attention knows that it's the right move.

 

They aren't stupid, they know the kids are what they are and are unlikely to be guys that you build a team around, so they're trying to win now with the older talent they have and the best goalie in the world before they lose him to free agency.

 

People might not like it, but that's what it is.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Right, and anyone paying attention knows that it's the right move.

 

They aren't stupid, they know the kids are what they are and are unlikely to be guys that you build a team around, so they're trying to win now with the older talent they have and the best goalie in the world before they lose him to free agency.

 

People might not like it, but that's what it is.

The decision making will repeat itself. The appetite to go for it now will also fuel the reason they sign Shesterkin until he’s 38.

[Br4d]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

Right, and anyone paying attention knows that it's the right move.

 

They aren't stupid, they know the kids are what they are and are unlikely to be guys that you build a team around, so they're trying to win now with the older talent they have and the best goalie in the world before they lose him to free agency.

 

People might not like it, but that's what it is.

 

This is 30 years of Rangers history in a nutshell.

 

BrooksBurner is 100% right on Shesterkin BTW.  He's probably going to eat more of the cap than the King did because the Rangers will not be able to let him go as long as he is seen as a key to their chances to win.  Given the likely talent situation when he comes up for free agency again he's gonna be that.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Br4d

[Sharpshooter]

26 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

This is 30 years of Rangers history in a nutshell.

 

BrooksBurner is 100% right on Shesterkin BTW.  He's probably going to eat more of the cap than the King did because the Rangers will not be able to let him go as long as he is seen as a key to their chances to win.  Given the likely talent situation when he comes up for free agency again he's gonna be that.

That's a very good point. Although Lundqvist was taking a lot of the cap up when he was much older and on the decline. That was the frustrating part. At least with Igor, you hope, he's more great than not signing him to a long term deal when he's still fairly young.

[RangersIn7]

50 minutes ago, Pete said:

Look, regarding Stutzle specifically, before last season I listened to preseason interviews on podcasts and the Senators players to a man said that he was the best/most talented player on the team. Think about that. 

 

I don’t at all disagree with or doubt that.

Not at all.

That kid is fantastic.

Not that this would have happened, but if they decided to select someone else, at the time of the draft, Stutzle is the one player in that class that I would have been ok with. 
 

He’s absolutely the better player right now. By a wide margin.

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

Would we have been even more upset if we wound up with Byfield instead of Lafreniere? Still very young too, but he hasn't looked that great.

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

It won’t be. The Laviolette hire told us that Drury still sees a window to win, and that he doesn’t care too much if it sandbags the years after. He’s also inevitably going to throw away more draft capital at the deadline for the third year in a row. I don’t think people are really grasping how much is being sacrificed to continue to go for it. FAFO.

 

57 minutes ago, Pete said:

Right, and anyone paying attention knows that it's the right move.

 

They aren't stupid, they know the kids are what they are and are unlikely to be guys that you build a team around, so they're trying to win now with the older talent they have and the best goalie in the world before they lose him to free agency.

 

People might not like it, but that's what it is.

Focus still needs to be on winning games primarily.

 

If though, he’s just able to find a way to get more out of those 3, get them to take another step forward, be more consistent and be larger contributors, that’s what’s needed.  
 

Amongst the young players, honestly, the most important thing is probably improving Miller’s play in his own end and defensively in general. Getting improvement in that aspect and getting him to be stable and consistent and do so at a high level is huge.

Kid is going to play a ton of minutes.

And he’s doing so with Trouba, who honestly could probably be pretty effective as a stay at home guy if he were just coached, instructed, and utilized in that manner. But that’s debatable.

That guy thinks he’s better offensively than he is. If they just said to him, don’t even worry about offense, stay at home and focus on shutting guys down, he might actually have more success. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

 

This is 30 years of Rangers history in a nutshell.

 

BrooksBurner is 100% right on Shesterkin BTW.  He's probably going to eat more of the cap than the King did because the Rangers will not be able to let him go as long as he is seen as a key to their chances to win.  Given the likely talent situation when he comes up for free agency again he's gonna be that.

Every player Drury has re-signed, he has signed below market value. There is nothing in his history that suggests he will empty the bank account for Shesterkin. And there is no guarantee that Shesterkin will sign for below market or that he even wants to stay in New York. 

[RangersIn7]

20 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Would we have been even more upset if we wound up with Byfield instead of Lafreniere? Still very young too, but he hasn't looked that great.

Byfield was always going to be a lengthy development and have some “project” type elements to that development. IIRC, pretty much everyone said he’d take a while. 
 

He was one of the younger players in that class. In fact, had the draft been in June that year like it normally is, he’d have been 17 when he got drafted. 
 

 

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Every player Drury has re-signed, he has signed below market value. There is nothing in his history that suggests he will empty the bank account for Shesterkin. And there is no guarantee that Shesterkin will sign for below market or that he even wants to stay in New York. 

 

I'm thinking past Igor.  I don't see anyway to resign him and keep him here.  Even if we dump Trouba, Kreider and Goodrow.  I'd rather have a more balanced, solid 4 lines, than an 8 digit contract goalie that has to be the focal point of the team.

 

We've been there with Hank, and outside of one Cup run, it doesn't work very well.

 

I love Igor, but after these 2 seasons he's got left, I just don't see us keeping him.

[Sharpshooter]

I'm 50/50 on Shesterkin still being here after his two years are up. Hopefully for the Rangers sake Garrand or someone can come in and be the next guy. If that doesn't happen, they might have a more balanced four lines, but then have no goaltending. lol 

[RJWantsTheCup]

I think Drury is waiting to see how much the cap actually goes up before he worries about signing Shesterkin in 2 years.   More than likely he's focused on making this team a winner now and going from there.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I think Drury is waiting to see how much the cap actually goes up before he worries about signing Shesterkin in 2 years.   More than likely he's focused on making this team a winner now and going from there.

Yes. A lot can happen in two years with the cap and the roster in general.

[Phil]

9 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

 

Its part of being young and making that jump. Hard to find consistency.

Thats the difference between meh production and good production, and up and up that ladder. And really, one of the major differences between young players and vets. Knowing what to do, how to do it, and doing so regularly. 
Experience breeds consistency. And good habits. 

 

Tapping into that more will help him find that. 

 

Some guys do need to be pushed, coached, guided, taught, etc. so that they learn those skills. 

 

And a subsequent argument could be made he's never actually been coached yet. That changes come October, but the optics probably don't. He's just shown so little. It's really hard to buy the "promise" — a problem not shared by Chytil or Kakko.

[Sharpshooter]

I think Laf can still be really good and a fantastic player, I just think we're seeing he's not going to be a superstar you're hoping a top pick is or can be.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Sharpshooter

[BrooksBurner]

17 minutes ago, Pete said:

Every player Drury has re-signed, he has signed below market value. There is nothing in his history that suggests he will empty the bank account for Shesterkin. And there is no guarantee that Shesterkin will sign for below market or that he even wants to stay in New York. 

The conversation isn’t about market value. It’s about the contract length. Drury has given out incredibly long contracts. Zibanejad signed a smidge under market value. He’s still signed until he’s 37 at a large cap hit, and the last 3-4 years will probably be pretty rough and unmoveable. We won’t be saying “yeah but it’s okay because it was a half a mill under market value when it was signed 4 years ago”. We’ll be saying “we have a big problem here”.

 

If Shesterkin’s estimated market value is $10 a year and Drury signs him at $9.5 for 8 years, he’s still going to be an anchor contract for a large portion of the contract even though it was below market value.

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

All those contracts still would be better than the Trouba one. lol

[Phil]

Drury didn't sign Trouba, Gorton did.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

The conversation isn’t about market value. It’s about the contract length. Drury has given out incredibly long contracts. Zibanejad signed a smidge under market value. He’s still signed until he’s 37 at a large cap hit, and the last 3-4 years will probably be pretty rough and unmoveable. We won’t be saying “yeah but it’s okay because it was a half a mill under market value when it was signed 4 years ago”. We’ll be saying “we have a big problem here”.

 

If Shesterkin’s estimated market value is $10 a year and Drury signs him at $9.5 for 8 years, he’s still going to be an anchor contract for a large portion of the contract even though it was below market value.

 

 

Every GM does this. It's no longer considered a "bad move" when GMs do this. It's called "industry standard". GMs openly acknowledge this. A GM's shelf life is about 5 years. Sign a player to an 8-year deal, you're unlikely to be there when it expires so it's not your problem.

 

It's how the league works now. Most of the critiques you have of Drury can be said about 25 other GMs. He's operating as any GM would. Sometimes he hits a home run, sometimes he strikes out. He's had more RBI doubles than inning ending double plays, that's for sure.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Pete

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

 

I'm thinking past Igor.  I don't see anyway to resign him and keep him here.  Even if we dump Trouba, Kreider and Goodrow.  I'd rather have a more balanced, solid 4 lines, than an 8 digit contract goalie that has to be the focal point of the team.

 

We've been there with Hank, and outside of one Cup run, it doesn't work very well.

 

I love Igor, but after these 2 seasons he's got left, I just don't see us keeping him.

Drury has been on this team and around this team enough to see what happens when the goalie is the highest paid player and you can't score goals...You don't win shit.

 

I'm not worried.

[Ozzy]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Drury has been on this team and around this team enough to see what happens when the goalie is the highest paid player and you can't score goals...You don't win shit.

 

I'm not worried.

 

Yup...exactly.  I really don't wanna go down that road again.  Drury has been very good in my opinion.  You're right Pete...nothing to be wary of at this point!