Targets to Break the Rangers' Homogeneity?

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Why do you keep saying he’s 5’9 though? So what?  The NHL is different now.  Giroux is under 6 ft too. So is Pavelski. 
It’s crazy to me that we would be okay to trade 2-3 major pieces away for a guy that will only be here for 2 months at most.  We are not one player away regardless.  I’m suggesting a trade for a piece that would be here for 3 more seasons and is cost effective. He also does the majority of his scoring at even strength. He checks several boxes for us. That’s huge in todays NHL. We have zero idea when the cap realistically is going up with any significance.  

I bring up his size because of the role he would be assuming as a checking line forward, because thats what he is without the supporting cast he had in Tampa. The other guys are bigger. Not just in height. 

 

Nevermind the impact they have on a line. They are simply better players that can carry a line and at times a team. 

 

Gourde isn't bad. I just don't think he would be coming here and being as effective as he was with Tampa, due to how deep that team was and who he played with. He didn't have to be the anchor. I don't think he has that in him. 

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I bring up his size because of the role he would be assuming as a checking line forward, because thats what he is without the supporting cast he had in Tampa. The other guys are bigger. Not just in height. 

 

Nevermind the impact they have on a line. They are simply better players that can carry a line and at times a team. 

 

Gourde isn't bad. I just don't think he would be coming here and being as effective as he was with Tampa, due to how deep that team was and who he played with. He didn't have to be the anchor. I don't think he has that in him. 

He has 20 points in 29 games primarily playing on a line with Blackwell and Jarnkrok though. Neither of those two guys are remotely big. It was Tanev for a while who was having a good year with Gourde but he’s not exactly huge either.   Only 3 of those 20 points are on the pp.  He’s doing just fine without Tampa. 

[The Dude]

8 minutes ago, Keirik said:

He has 20 points in 29 games primarily playing on a line with Blackwell and Jarnkrok though. Neither of those two guys are remotely big. It was Tanev for a while who was having a good year with Gourde but he’s not exactly huge either.   Only 3 of those 20 points are on the pp.  He’s doing just fine without Tampa. 

Ice time? He's what? Their top line center? 2nd? Yeah, he's going to produce when he's getting 18-19 minutes a night with their top wingers. Blackwell has been out all year, so he's been playing with Donskoi, Schwartz, Tanev, Johansson and probably Eberle.  

 

He'd come here and play with Lafreniere and Gauthier/Goodrow, getting 13 14 minutes a night. Big difference. 

 

I just don't think it's a fit for the price. Nor do I think they want to move him in year 1. They're likely looking for any form of stability. 

 

Listen I wouldn't complain.  He's pretty good. Better than what they have.  Maybe they can capture some Lightning in a bottle. Literally. Just not feeling all the moving parts of such a deal and I'm not confident he would produce what it is they need right now. Right now is a very big issue.  

[Keirik]

11 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Ice time? He's what? Their top line center? 2nd? Yeah, he's going to produce when he's getting 18-19 minutes a night with their top wingers. Blackwell has been out all year, so he's been playing with Donskoi, Schwartz, Tanev, Johansson and probably Eberle.  

 

He'd come here and play with Lafreniere and Gauthier/Goodrow, getting 13 14 minutes a night. Big difference. 

 

I just don't think it's a fit for the price. Nor do I think they want to move him in year 1. They're likely looking for any form of stability. 

 

Listen I wouldn't complain.  He's pretty good. Better than what they have.  Maybe they can capture some Lightning in a bottle. Literally. Just not feeling all the moving parts of such a deal and I'm not confident he would produce what it is they need right now. Right now is a very big issue.  

1. in  17/18 he had 60+ points playing 16 minutes per night. His stats aren’t inflated this year. This is who he is. 

2. you swap out Chytil for Gourde on our 3rd line and I guarantee you their playing times goes up a bit especially considering Gourde does most of his damage at even strength.

 

3. Blackwell has been back since mid November. Gourde does not play with McCann, Eberle, or Schwartz.  That’s Seattles first line. Gourde has been with Tanev/Blackwell and Jarnkrok all season.  Any other combo is like 2% of the line combos. 

[The Dude]

5 minutes ago, Keirik said:

1. in  17/18 he had 60+ points playing 16 minutes per night. His stats aren’t inflated this year. This is who he is. 

2. you swap out Chytil for Gourde on our 3rd line and I guarantee you their playing times goes up a bit especially considering Gourde does most of his damage at even strength.

 

3. Blackwell has been back since mid November. Gourde does not play with McCann, Eberle, or Schwartz.  That’s Seattles first line. Gourde has been with Tanev/Blackwell and Jarnkrok all season.  Any other combo is like 2% of the line combos. 

Do we have to discuss whom he played with as linemates in Tampa again? He's not going to get those linemates here. 

 

Gourde may be putting up some points,  but he's their 2nd line center and that teams record blows. Let's actually see if that production lasts. 

 

But again.  I wouldn't hate the acquisition.  It's an upgrade. 

 

 

[Keirik]

15 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Do we have to discuss whom he played with as linemates in Tampa again? He's not going to get those linemates here. 

 

Gourde may be putting up some points,  but he's their 2nd line center and that teams record blows. Let's actually see if that production lasts. 

 

But again.  I wouldn't hate the acquisition.  It's an upgrade. 

 

 

But the point is, he doesn’t need those guys to put up some points. He still does now, on a much much worse team with much worse depth. We arent looking at him for 2nd line minutes. However we can see that if necessary from injury to another C he can perform there. We also can see that his points aren’t pp inflated. He does his damage from even strength, which is perfect for a guy at 3c. 
 

We can’t just move goal posts this much. All I’m reading is “yeah well he put up points because of his linemates” then he follows it up with

48 points in 80 games playing 15:50 a game

30 points in 70 games playing 14:40 a game

36 points in 56 games averaging 17:04 a game

 

   Then drafted by Seattle and is 20 points in 29 games on a craptastic team with not exactly all star linemates. Great, he’s getting 18 minutes a night. So he gets Strome ice time now without playing with guys like Bread for 5.1m cap hit and puts up stats not inflated by the power play. Plus he’s won two cups. 
 

  Now I’m not suggesting to dump Strome. He needs to come back. I just don’t think a winger is as much as we need as a two way center who’s game doesn’t seem to give a fuck or depend on where he slots in the lineup. 
 

   What’s one of our biggest weaknesses? What we do at 5 v 5. Gourde. 337 career games, 88 career goals with 67 of them at even strength. 119 career assists with  94 at even strength. I’ts my opinion that a package that wows Seattle into some retention and bringing Gourde in for 3 years does a hell of a lot more for our success than two months of Giroux could ever do. 
 

Teams like Tampa win because they force the opposition not picking their poison. A top 6 that can perform with a bottom 6 that cannot lets them off easy. Gourde centering that third line would be huge. You know who else does his offense mostly at EV? LaFreniere. 20 career goals and 12 assists ALL at even strength. 
 

gourde is a perfect fit. 

[The Dude]

6 minutes ago, Keirik said:

But the point is, he doesn’t need those guys to put up some points. He still does now, on a much much worse team with much worse depth. We arent looking at him for 2nd line minutes. However we can see that if necessary from injury to another C he can perform there. We also can see that his points aren’t pp inflated. He does his damage from even strength, which is perfect for a guy at 3c. 
 

We can’t just move goal posts this much. All I’m reading is “yeah well he put up points because of his linemates” then he follows it up with

48 points in 80 games playing 15:50 a game

30 points in 70 games playing 14:40 a game

36 points in 56 games averaging 17:04 a game

 

   Then drafted by Seattle and is 20 points in 29 games on a craptastic team with not exactly all star linemates. Great, he’s getting 18 minutes a night. So he gets Strome ice time now without playing with guys like Bread for 5.1m cap hit and puts up stats not inflated by the power play. Plus he’s won two cups. 
 

  Now I’m not suggesting to dump Strome. He needs to come back. I just don’t think a winger is as much as we need as a two way center who’s game doesn’t seem to give a fuck or depend on where he slots in the lineup. 
 

   What’s one of our biggest weaknesses? What we do at 5 v 5. Gourde. 337 career games, 88 career goals with 67 of them at even strength. 119 career assists with  94 at even strength. I’ts my opinion that a package that wows Seattle into some retention and bringing Gourde in for 3 years does a hell of a lot more for our success than two months of Giroux could ever do. 
 

Teams like Tampa win because they force the opposition not picking their poison. A top 6 that can perform with a bottom 6 that cannot lets them off easy. Gourde centering that third line would be huge. You know who else does his offense mostly at EV? LaFreniere. 20 career goals and 12 assists ALL at even strength. 
 

gourde is a perfect fit. 

That's your opinion. That's fine. I disagree.

 

I don't feel like I'm the one moving goal posts though. I'm telling you he produces points in a third line role when placed on a deep AF Tampa roster. I'm saying he's producing now because he's getting 2nd line minutes on a crap team. His points are not making a difference for that team. He's not elevating the garbage that surrounds him there. What's he going to do here with the Rangers garbage that he will play with? Unless you just want him for what you believe he can produce with the 10-14 minutes he will get with the Rangers.  

 

That's fine.  I don't have to agree with you man. 

[Keirik]

19 minutes ago, The Dude said:

That's your opinion. That's fine. I disagree.

 

I don't feel like I'm the one moving goal posts though. I'm telling you he produces points in a third line role when placed on a deep AF Tampa roster. I'm saying he's producing now because he's getting 2nd line minutes on a crap team. His points are not making a difference for that team. He's not elevating the garbage that surrounds him there. What's he going to do here with the Rangers garbage that he will play with? Unless you just want him for what you believe he can produce with the 10-14 minutes he will get with the Rangers.  

 

That's fine.  I don't have to agree with you man. 

I mean I guess? If you close your eyes to statistics. Sure. He had 64 points playing on a stacked line for 78 ppg. Now he plays with garbage and gets 20 points in 27 games before tonight for .74 ppg. 
 

something tells me if he can do that on both a stacked line and an expansion team, he can still produce points on a third line role. We don’t need a third line at .70 ppg. But we could use one that changes from a current rate of like .24 to like .45

 

 having a center that can actually play hockey helps that, especially if he’s proven to do it several times already. 
 

And yes we don’t have to agree. I just don’t get where your opinion is coming from. It seems to me you’re saying Gourde stats improve when he plays more. Think you can say that about Chytil? There is a large contingency here that believes Alf can perform if he’s given better linemates. Gourde is exactly that. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Keirik

[Long live the King]

16 hours ago, The Dude said:

Do we have to discuss whom he played with as linemates in Tampa again? He's not going to get those linemates here. 

 

Gourde may be putting up some points,  but he's their 2nd line center and that teams record blows. Let's actually see if that production lasts. 

 

But again.  I wouldn't hate the acquisition.  It's an upgrade. 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, The Dude said:

That's your opinion. That's fine. I disagree.

 

I don't feel like I'm the one moving goal posts though. I'm telling you he produces points in a third line role when placed on a deep AF Tampa roster. I'm saying he's producing now because he's getting 2nd line minutes on a crap team. His points are not making a difference for that team. He's not elevating the garbage that surrounds him there. What's he going to do here with the Rangers garbage that he will play with? Unless you just want him for what you believe he can produce with the 10-14 minutes he will get with the Rangers.  

 

That's fine.  I don't have to agree with you man. 

 

You know these things are really easy to look up right?

 

2020-2021: 43.2% of the time Coleman-Gourde-Goodrow

 

The line here would be Laf-Gourde-Goodrow.  Gourde played 13:45 per game at even strength and scored 30 even strength points in 56 games.  In the playoffs Gourde and Goodrow were 2nd and 4th in even strength TOI.  They played more than both Kucherov and Stamkos.

 

This notion that they were getting carried by "a deep AF Tamp roster" is ridiculous.  They were the depth.

[The Dude]

21 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

 

You know these things are really easy to look up right?

 

2020-2021: 43.2% of the time Coleman-Gourde-Goodrow

 

The line here would be Laf-Gourde-Goodrow.  Gourde played 13:45 per game at even strength and scored 30 even strength points in 56 games.  In the playoffs Gourde and Goodrow were 2nd and 4th in even strength TOI.  They played more than both Kucherov and Stamkos.

 

This notion that they were getting carried by "a deep AF Tamp roster" is ridiculous.  They were the depth.

Yes the depth behind Stamkos, Point, Kucherov, Killourn, Cirelli, Palat and Johnson. There's 7 other offensive stars that made up a big time top 6 that bled down to the bottom 6.

 

The Rangers have 4 solid forwards. To think there's no difference between the Lightning championship rosters and the Rangers of today is what's ridiculous.  

 

I don't want to discredit what Gourde is. I just don't think he can carry the 3rd line of garbage that is here. Could he maybe play in Stromes place? Maybe. Can he carry Lafreniere and Goodrow.  I don't think he can. Sorry. I don't.  I think they can get similar results for that spot for less assets, or get a player that can carry the 3rd line for what is being  offered for Gourde.

 

 

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Yes the depth behind Stamkos, Point, Kucherov, Killourn, Cirelli, Palat and Johnson. There's 7 other offensive stars that made up a big time top 6 that bled down to the bottom 6.

 

The Rangers have 4 solid forwards. To think there's no difference between the Lightning championship rosters and the Rangers of today is what's ridiculous.  

 

I don't want to discredit what Gourde is. I just don't think he can carry the 3rd line of garbage that is here. Could he maybe play in Stromes place? Maybe. Can he carry Lafreniere and Goodrow.  I don't think he can. Sorry. I don't.  I think they can get similar results for that spot for less assets, or get a player that can carry the 3rd line for what is being  offered for Gourde.

 

 

 

7 offensive stars? Do any amount of research into the claims you're making.  Johnson played on the 4th line.  Kucherov didn't play in the regular season.  Cirelli had 9 goals and 22 points in 50 games, essentially what Kakko is doing right now.

[Keirik]

Also something to keep in mind is that from 17/18-20/21 Gourde is up there with some very big names for GWGs. 
19 for Gourde. Panarin? 18.  Ovechkin? 21, Ziby? 22. That’s some decent company for a guy like Gourde. Dude is a gamer. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

I like Gourde, but what are we giving up to get him?

[Long live the King]

Doesn't matter anyway.  We're brining Giroux home with us from Philly tomorrow.

[The Dude]

46 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

7 offensive stars? Do any amount of research into the claims you're making.  Johnson played on the 4th line.  Kucherov didn't play in the regular season.  Cirelli had 9 goals and 22 points in 50 games, essentially what Kakko is doing right now.

Oh, so those guys didn't draw defenders or contribute big goals or anything in the playoffs (or regular season).

 

Ok...

 

 

Maybe do the research on how every line contributed offensively.  Kucherov didn't play in the regular season,  but led them in points in the playoffs. Their depth and how they spread out their lines is what got them so far. It was very hard to match up against such a stacked team. 

Johnson may not have performed well in the regular season,  but the guys past performance kept teams honest. 

 

You're arguing about one of the deepest teams in recent history here. Maybe look that up too. If you think the Rangers stack up against the 2021 Lightning, let me know.  Cause then I'll know you're just here to argue with me. There's zero comparison. 

 

Read the rest of my exchange with Keirik. I'm not doubting the guys good. I'm just saying he's not good enough to carry the garbage that are the Rangers 3rd liners. Which is something I feel the team needs. I just don't.  Sorry that you don't agree.

 

 

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Oh, so those guys didn't draw defenders or contribute big goals or anything in the playoffs (or regular season).

 

Ok...

 

 

Maybe do the research on how every line contributed offensively.  Kucherov didn't play in the regular season,  but led them in points in the playoffs. Their depth and how they spread out their lines is what got them so far. It was very hard to match up against such a stacked team. 

Johnson may not have performed well in the regular season,  but the guys past performance kept teams honest. 

 

You're arguing about one of the deepest teams in recent history here. Maybe look that up too. If you think the Rangers stack up against the 2021 Lightning, let me know.  Cause then I'll know you're just here to argue with me. There's zero comparison. 

 

Read the rest of my exchange with Keirik. I'm not doubting the guys good. I'm just saying he's not good enough to carry the garbage that are the Rangers 3rd liners. Which is something I feel the team needs. I just don't.  Sorry that you don't agree.

 

 

 

It's. The. Same. 3rd. Line.

 

Gourde-Goodrow-Coleman vs. Gourde-Goodrow-Laf.

 

Kreider/Zib isn't drawing people?  Strome/Panarin isn't drawing people?

 

The Rangers lack the depth and experience of Tampa on D.  That has nothing to do with Gourde.

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I like Gourde, but what are we giving up to get him?

I have no real idea but it probably would be significant if I’m suggesting they either get a third team involved to eat cap or give up a lot. I know I, in the minority but I think 3 years of Gourde helps us more than 3 months of a rental. Gourde has proven he can play and succeed anywhere in a lineup

[RJWantsTheCup]

Of course Gourde would be worth getting depending on the cost.  Cost means everything and I’m afraid he would cost too much. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by RJWantsTheCup

[Pete]

1 hour ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Of course Gourde would be worth getting depending on the cost.  Cost means everything and I’m afraid he would cost too much. 

Cost and a full NTC he needs to waive. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Pete

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

It's. The. Same. 3rd. Line.

 

Gourde-Goodrow-Coleman vs. Gourde-Goodrow-Laf.

 

Kreider/Zib isn't drawing people?  Strome/Panarin isn't drawing people?

 

The Rangers lack the depth and experience of Tampa on D.  That has nothing to do with Gourde.

K. Great. You're right. Awesome 

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Cost and a full NTC he needs to waive. 

He only needs to waive it a few months before his modified one kicks in. Of course this is moot if he doesn’t have us as a team he’d be willing to go to but we discussed that already. 

[josh]

Not touching that Gourde contract.