Future Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Apart from a beautiful assist on the rush in the last game we played? I agree he's tailed off a bit (understandable) and he doesn't look like a dynamic offensive player, but at the same time he's the 10th best rookie in scoring in the league and has 14 points in 32. That's a 36 point pace. In his rookie year, playing for a shit team. Sounds a bit premature to place his ceiling at 45 points. Most top-9 forwards in the league can make that play. Skjei was a top-10 rookie scorer, too. I think Rangers fans have forgotten what playmakers look like, Howden isn't one. And I think it's more important that he's a 20-goal guy than a high-assist guy, in the context of 45 points. He has to be a net front player to be impactful offensively, he's not explosive enough to carry pucks and set up teammates with any consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Another good comparable for Howden would be Chris Kelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Fair enough. Just think there’s too much else that needs to be added to be relevant within the next 5 seasons. Defense, wingers, then goaltending. I’d much rather package guys to upgrade someone who can have an immediate impact (this or next season and beyond), If you think that much is missing, then there's no package that will have an immediate impact. Wingers? Chytil is going to keep getting better. So will Kravtsov. Bring in a Panarin or Stone and you have a solid top 9. Not to mention our ~top 10 pick this year will likely be a forward. Goaltending? There isn't a young goalie in the world better than Shestyorkin. This issue is defense and just like last year we're likely to see two high quality D prospects added late first round/early second round. Toronto gave a 35+ contract to Marleau with a $6.25M cap hit for less than 50 points and no one is willing to sign Hayes who is 10 years younger and plays a much bigger role for $7M... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 If you think that much is missing, then there's no package that will have an immediate impact. Wingers? Chytil is going to keep getting better. So will Kravtsov. Bring in a Panarin or Stone and you have a solid top 9. Not to mention our ~top 10 pick this year will likely be a forward. Goaltending? There isn't a young goalie in the world better than Shestyorkin. This issue is defense and just like last year we're likely to see two high quality D prospects added late first round/early second round. . I think there's a good chance that, even with 3 first-round picks, this team doesn't get a top-6 forward or a top-4 D. This is a pretty soft draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 If you think that much is missing, then there's no package that will have an immediate impact. Wingers? Chytil is going to keep getting better. So will Kravtsov. Bring in a Panarin or Stone and you have a solid top 9. Not to mention our ~top 10 pick this year will likely be a forward. Goaltending? There isn't a young goalie in the world better than Shestyorkin. This issue is defense and just like last year we're likely to see two high quality D prospects added late first round/early second round. Toronto gave a 35+ contract to Marleau with a $6.25M cap hit for less than 50 points and no one is willing to sign Hayes who is 10 years younger and plays a much bigger role for $7M... Need top end talent. Most of your post suggests that in 5+ years, we might have a chance to develop some players that can fix some of the teams current issues. Chytil, Kravtsov and Shesy who knows, and even thats 3 years before they come over, adjust, and progress. Not sure why you'd sign Panarin or Stone in that case. That's the half-in, half-out we've seen be unsuccessful the last few season. Again, if people are ok with Zibanejad & Hayes as 1-2, then I think you buy, sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravesy Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Most top-9 forwards in the league can make that play. Skjei was a top-10 rookie scorer, too. I think Rangers fans have forgotten what playmakers look like, Howden isn't one. And I think it's more important that he's a 20-goal guy than a high-assist guy, in the context of 45 points. He has to be a net front player to be impactful offensively, he's not explosive enough to carry pucks and set up teammates with any consistency. I'm not forgetting anything, nor am I calling him a playmaker. I'm merely saying it's premature to set a 45 point ceiling on him. Which it clearly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I'm not forgetting anything, nor am I calling him a playmaker. I'm merely saying it's premature to set a 45 point ceiling on him. Which it clearly is. Not really though. He's a lot more like Andrew Copp and Adam Lowry were as rookies than, say, Ryan Johansen. And I think you're sticking to that 45 point number too hard. He could score 52, he could score 38. End of the day, he's probably a low-end 2c or a high-end 3c. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunny Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 And we want people in roles that make them high end, not the alternative. Pretending people are what they are not is how we'll suck for imperpituity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYR2711 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Howden's offensive ceiling is like 45 points. Maybe he can be a 20-20 guy, but that type of player needs to be your 3C unless you have just incredible wing talent. After that little run with Vesey, Howden has been totally invisible offensively. Tangent but...the difference between Howden and other 20 y.o., like Lias, is that Howden doesn't have much physical maturing to do. He's 6'2, 195 right now, I don't think he's ever going to be playing at 220. Lias, on the other hand, is the same weight, but 3 inches shorter, so he's either going to drop a bit of weight or still has to grow into it. That's kind of a subtle difference, but just looking at the two...Howden looks like he fits in with NHLers, Lias still looks like a kid out there. And how many times was this exact thing said about Hayes? He has been a 45 point guy basically his entire career up through this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 And how many times was this exact thing said about Hayes? He has been a 45 point guy basically his entire career up through this point. I don't care how many times you said it, or someone else. I never said that about Hayes. His points have been consistently suppressed by the role he's been used in and the wingers he's deployed with...He's always been a 70-point ceiling player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 And we want people in roles that make them high end, not the alternative. Pretending people are what they are not is how we'll suck for imperpituity Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravesy Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 And we want people in roles that make them high end, not the alternative. Pretending people are what they are not is how we'll suck for imperpituity. Well I agree with that, but I'm not actually pretending he's anything at all. If I had to guess I'd say a 3c with potential upside to be a 2c, but the point here is that placing a low points ceiling on him saying he'll be no better than a 3c at this point seems a bit pointless. Who knows what this guy is going to look like at 25? He's put up points throughout his career. About 1.5 ppg in his last 2 years in juniors, 7 in 7 in last years u-20 etc. That doesn't necessarily translate to the NHL and I agree he doesn't have the dynamism of a high end scorer in the NHL, but there are some intangibles to his game that makes him an intriguing prospect. For me he's one of those players whose trajectory is difficult to call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirtyONE Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Can we stop pretending we know what kind of players these kids are going to be 30 games into their NHL careers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunny Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 You're right, we should wait 5 years and then decide how we want to go about re-building the re-build. Vinny Lettieri could be Dino Ciccarelli, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirtyONE Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 You're right, we should wait 5 years and then decide how we want to go about re-building the re-build. Vinny Lettieri could be Dino Ciccarelli, I guess. 30 games. 5 years. No inbetween I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Can we stop pretending we know what kind of players these kids are going to be 30 games into their NHL careers?Can you stop pretending you know Hayes' production will drop off a cliff the second he turns 30? Look at point total in relation to age for Blake Wheeler... Sent from my [device_name] using http://Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirtyONE Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Can you stop pretending you know Hayes' production will drop off a cliff the second he turns 30? Look at point total in relation to age for Blake Wheeler... Sent from my [device_name] using http://Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk It’s science brother: http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26088954/ I’m just going by the statistical average of human peak performance. If you think Hayes can last longer, that’s up to you. The two things are not related in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Cool science, article talks about peak performance for "explosive power/sprint events" and "endurance events". As has been said before, that's not what makes Hayes' game. Hayes' game is body positioning, puck control, vision, and hockey IQ. Sent from my [device_name] using http://Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirtyONE Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravesy Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Can we stop pretending we know what kind of players these kids are going to be 30 games into their NHL careers? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYR2711 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I don't care how many times you said it, or someone else. I never said that about Hayes. His points have been consistently suppressed by the role he's been used in and the wingers he's deployed with...He's always been a 70-point ceiling player. So Howdens points haven’t been suppressed playing with Vesey and Namestnikov? Please provide something that says Hayes has always been a 70-point ceiling player. I have never heard that about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Can we stop pretending we know what kind of players these kids are going to be 30 games into their NHL careers? These guys are scouted for probably far fewer games than that before they are drafted by a team. I don't see why it's not fair to start getting a decent idea of what they will become based on 30 NHL games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontonyr Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I'm all for trading him after watching this cringe-worthy tour of his new place. He and Whitney are the ultimate New England bros. As a fan, I was embarrassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 That was great. Did realize he lives across from Chelsea Piers. That building is brand new. Sick spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siddious Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 hes just a frat bro with money lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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