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Thread: The Road to Contending and the Rebuild "On the Fly": What's Missing?

  1. #41
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    St. Louis built a team with players slotted into specific roles that suited them and the team needs. They did it with depth up front and their foundation is defense, players and system. Tarensenko became the complimentary goal scorer that’s always a threat but their offense was made by a team wide hellacious forecheck. Of course goaltending was the missing piece. No need for $11-12m players. They built a team not a marketing strategy

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    It's so easy to talk up a team's pedestrian players like Steen and Barbashev after a Cup win. Steen with 55 hits is all of a sudden a hardnosed player. It's a fallacy. Half of their playoff wins were because Binnington stood on his head for those games, including Game 5 and 7 of the Cup.
    That seems very simplistic, but if you think you could've replaced their bottom 6 with guys like Vesey, Namestnikov and Brett Howden and still win the cup playing that brand of hockey then I'd have to disagree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I appreciate the thought out post here but I disagree with some of what was said.

    Nobody should give a shit about Hank's "window" anymore. It's closed. The only cup he's going to win in NY is as a backup if at all. The Rangers are not, and should not, be operating with his longevity in mind.

    Point two is NJ. We are not in an "arm's race" with NJ. They are 6 years into a rebuild and have been a dumpster fire for most of that time. If they're coming out of that phase, then good for them, but their activity has nothing to do with the Rangers.

    Point three is that there is no rush. The Rangers will likely ice the youngest team in the NHL next season: meaning they will make a lot of mistakes, they will be frustrating at times, they will lose bad games, have bad goaltending, have poor scoring, make massive defensive blunders -- but it's all good. They will learn, and hopefully through experience, they will learn in the seasons ahead. As JD has said, it's a process. This will take lots of time. Some of the players that are here now, won't pan out or will be traded. The idea isn't to suddenly "go for it" but rather give yourself a 10-year span of playoffs and hopefully deep runs.
    All good points (as are many in this thread). I should clarify: I mentioned in my post that I DO NOT think we should buy in to the Henrik window logic. Bit of a miscommunication there; I am flatly against selling our souls for a last ditch Hail Mary shot at glory for him. Agree 100% that, if such a window ever existed, it's long since closed.

    Also, I am one of the most adamant supporters of the rebuild. Hell, I was strongly against giving up a first rounder for MSL (or acquiring him in general). I firmly believe that as assets age, we need to be selling them off and constantly repleneshing the system. I agree that the goal is to be competitive for the next decade, not the next two years. The only way to succeed in the cap era is by trading off aging talent once it becomes too expensive and building from within. To be clear: I am firmly against any Yandle/Eric Staal/MSL type trades. Anyone on this board can tell you that I'm a huge proponent of the rebuild. That's why I'm all about trading/shedding Kreider/Shatty/Staal.

    This being said, all indications are that we plan to get back to winning ASAP (see McKenzie's opinion that we are "looking to get better in a hurry"). The point of this thread is: assuming our goal is to contend as soon as next season, what do you think we're missing? Because I do think that's what we're going for.

    I agree that our foot should be off the gas pedal in the sense that I'm NOT trading futures for that "one last piece" ever again. That's a fallacy that lands you in hot water. If you have to add your star power at the trade deadline, that's a bad sign. What I don't believe, however, is that we shouldn't be going for it every year.

    I don't buy in to the idea that we somehow need to "shelter" our younger players by not putting any expectations on them. In fact, I think that's an underestimation of their ability. If they're playing in the NHL they should be trying to win. It just seems silly to me that we would throw away an entire season, possibly two seasons, for the sake of taking it easy. This is the NHL, not a prospect camp or even the AHL. Expectations are a part of the business. If you don't want the fans to be leaning on you to win, you're in the wrong business. I think it's sending entirely the wrong message to plan on, essentially, tanking. In fact, to a certain extent I believe it is counter-productive to let them "get their feet wet" while they "figure things out." You want to push a winning culture, sooner than later.

    This being said, I'm aware this team has many of the same flaws it had last year and that, if we're being realistic, we need A LOT of things to go right to even sniff at the playoffs. If it's apparent by December that we can't hang with the big boys, I am not in favor of trading Pavel Buchnevich and draft picks to try to remedy that situation. But in terms of adding star power, Panarin is the only option for now without giving anything other than money. Similarly, if Pavelski wants more than three years, which he will, my position is he can take a hike.

    I'm not trying to mortgage the future. What I am saying though is that recent developments have changed the immediate outlook drastically. Imagine if someone else trades for Adam Fox. Imagine we move down in the draft lottery. Imagine we don't sign Krav and Shesty. Imagine if Philly or NJ beats us to the punch on Trouba (which there was a strong possibility of). At that point, we're having an entirely different conversation.

    What I'm getting at is that we're poised to take a big step forward depending on how things shake out on July 1st. If we miss out on the big name free agents, so be it, we're no worse off than we were. But if you buy in to the idea that we're trying to contend as soon as possible, which the pundits seem to believe, the point of this thread is: what do you think we need to do it? Free agents cost money, not futures.

    TL, DR: trying to contend and sticking to the rebuild are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Ranger Lothbrok; 06-24-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    It's so easy to talk up a team's pedestrian players like Steen and Barbashev after a Cup win. Steen with 55 hits is all of a sudden a hardnosed player. It's a fallacy. Half of their playoff wins were because Binnington stood on his head for those games, including Game 5 and 7 of the Cup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    That seems very simplistic, but if you think you could've replaced their bottom 6 with guys like Vesey, Namestnikov and Brett Howden and still win the cup playing that brand of hockey then I'd have to disagree with you.
    Also Binnington was .914 goalie giving up 2 and a half goals a game. Hard to say they only won because he stood on his head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    The Rangers don't have anyone on the level of Steen, Barbashev, Schenn, etc? You were making a good case up until then.
    We have 8 guys as good or better than Carl Gunnarsson like, come on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Also Binnington was .914 goalie giving up 2 and a half goals a game. Hard to say they only won because he stood on his head.
    They got in because he did. Once there he was just "good".

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    I really find that people trying to explain team playoff success are trying to explain the outcome of a coin flip.

    You aren't going to determine the best team in hockey in a 6 week tournament. You're going to determine that over the regular season. That should be obvious, but somehow it's not.

    That's why it's important to just get in. Truly, anything can happen, this year should prove that beyond any doubt, but I'm sure it won't, people will continue to try to explain the outcome of the coin flip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Also Binnington was .914 goalie giving up 2 and a half goals a game. Hard to say they only won because he stood on his head.
    No question he had a handful of clunkers, which is why I didn't say he was the sole reason or that he carried them every game. But so many of their wins consisted of him playing at a ridiculous level, especially the times they needed a win most. The clunkers make the average look less spectacular.

    But whatever. If people want to act like every single player on every Cup winning roster is irreplaceable they can. I'll just agree to disagree.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    No question he had a handful of clunkers, which is why I didn't say he was the sole reason or that he carried them every game. But so many of their wins consisted of him playing at a ridiculous level, especially the times they needed a win most. The clunkers make the average look less spectacular.

    But whatever. If people want to act like every single player on every Cup winning roster is irreplaceable they can. I'll just agree to disagree.
    I don't think that. But I also don't think anyone we have in the bottom 6 is as good as STL bottom 6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Lothbrok View Post
    TL, DR: trying to contend and sticking to the rebuild are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion.
    I'd agree with most of this post if you substituted "competing ferociously and exceeding expectations" for "trying to contend"in the last sentence. When we're ready to contend, we're all going to know it based on how the team has coalesced and performed; not how a bunch of kids, including key members who have never played a single NHL game, look like they are supposed to perform on paper. The way it worked out at the end of the season - with Quinn saying fuck the tank we're going to try and win to the end, and then getting the 2nd pick despite having won the final game in OT to lose the 27th slot - was almost poetic. Both things have to go forward. Laserlike focus on building the winning Rangers culture and fully maximizing the development process (including revitalizing Hartford) will bring contention to MSG at the soonest possible moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    I'd agree with most of this post if you substituted "competing ferociously and exceeding expectations" for "trying to contend"in the last sentence. When we're ready to contend, we're all going to know it based on how the team has coalesced and performed; not how a bunch of kids, including key members who have never played a single NHL game, look like they are supposed to perform on paper. The way it worked out at the end of the season - with Quinn saying fuck the tank we're going to try and win to the end, and then getting the 2nd pick despite having won the final game in OT to lose the 27th slot - was almost poetic. Both things have to go forward. Laserlike focus on building the winning Rangers culture and fully maximizing the development process (including revitalizing Hartford) will bring contention to MSG at the soonest possible moment.
    Well said, RG

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Skjei - Trouba doesn’t make sense. I’d rather see ADA - Trouba, Skjei - Fox
    I only included it because it's the buzz - but so was Shattenkirk/Mcdonagh at this stage and that never materialized. What's your thinking?

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  13. #53
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    Spread out what you have. Trouba and Skjei are the closest things to shutdown dmen the team has. On top of that, there are a ton of offensive dmen, and everyone struggles in his own zone.
    Trouba and Skjei are both skilled and knowledgeable enough to both, allow their offensive partners to flourish in that role, but both are able to use their skill and speed to jump into the rush, or back door, when the opportunity exists. In fact, some of the best highlights from Trouba are him sneaking far post, and Skjei when he's the trailer. Giving each and offensive guy to pair with allows them to do this even more.

    ADA played a lot on the left side prior to the NHL. He said he's comfortable over there, as well. Perfect guy to try with Trouba. Give ADA the minutes and the opportunity.

    Skjei continues to show, time and time again, that he plays much better hockey when he's a 2nd or 3rd pair guy. Now is the time to be a great 2nd pair guy, with Trouba manning the top pair. Pair him with Fox, (or Shattenkirk). But Skjei needs to focus on being a SAH defender, first and foremost. The points are an additional benefit, but the focus has to be in his own zone.

    Staal - Shatty should be ok as a third pair.

    I'm also a huge advocate for guys rotating through the lineup, and taking occasional nights off. Get these guys are 50-65 games a season, and they'll grow more in the NHL than they would in the AHL. That's assuming its Rykov/Lindgren/Fox rotating through, but even the vets getting nights off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Spread out what you have. Trouba and Skjei are the closest things to shutdown dmen the team has. On top of that, there are a ton of offensive dmen, and everyone struggles in his own zone.
    Trouba and Skjei are both skilled and knowledgeable enough to both, allow their offensive partners to flourish in that role, but both are able to use their skill and speed to jump into the rush, or back door, when the opportunity exists. In fact, some of the best highlights from Trouba are him sneaking far post, and Skjei when he's the trailer. Giving each and offensive guy to pair with allows them to do this even more.

    ADA played a lot on the left side prior to the NHL. He said he's comfortable over there, as well. Perfect guy to try with Trouba. Give ADA the minutes and the opportunity.

    Skjei continues to show, time and time again, that he plays much better hockey when he's a 2nd or 3rd pair guy. Now is the time to be a great 2nd pair guy, with Trouba manning the top pair. Pair him with Fox, (or Shattenkirk). But Skjei needs to focus on being a SAH defender, first and foremost. The points are an additional benefit, but the focus has to be in his own zone.

    Staal - Shatty should be ok as a third pair.

    I'm also a huge advocate for guys rotating through the lineup, and taking occasional nights off. Get these guys are 50-65 games a season, and they'll grow more in the NHL than they would in the AHL. That's assuming its Rykov/Lindgren/Fox rotating through, but even the vets getting nights off.
    That all makes huge sense. Thanks.

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  15. #55
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    tank for Lafreniere this team is not contending until the dead weight on defense is gone and we aren't giving up first round picks like the leafs to ditch their contracts

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    I thought Lindgren looked pretty solid in the handful of games he played. He has that Kevin Klein look that says don't fuck with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBrowningPI View Post
    I thought Lindgren looked pretty solid in the handful of games he played. He has that Kevin Klein look that says don't fuck with me.

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    I’m a big fan of Lindgren. Unfortunately for him, he may have arrived at the worst time. There are a number of bad NHL contracts he’ll have to wait out. Then, a handful of young defensemen flooding the system. He’s not flashy, and won’t always stand out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    I really find that people trying to explain team playoff success are trying to explain the outcome of a coin flip.

    You aren't going to determine the best team in hockey in a 6 week tournament. You're going to determine that over the regular season. That should be obvious, but somehow it's not.

    That's why it's important to just get in. Truly, anything can happen, this year should prove that beyond any doubt, but I'm sure it won't, people will continue to try to explain the outcome of the coin flip.
    I’m not trying to explain their success. I’m saying that

    a) they’re not a great example of a team just getting in and the stars aligning and
    b) what they were able to do isn’t indicative of what the Rangers may or may not achieve given the makeup of the two rosters are diametrically different

    I’m not sure how those are controversial statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I’m a big fan of Lindgren. Unfortunately for him, he may have arrived at the worst time. There are a number of bad NHL contracts he’ll have to wait out. Then, a handful of young defensemen flooding the system. He’s not flashy, and won’t always stand out

    I like Lindgren too, and I feel he has time on his side. Nothing wrong with him rounding out his game in the A for another year or even two. Even with the young guys coming through there is still room for a tough, no nonsense SAH 3rd pair guy like him.

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    Fox, ADA, Trouba & Shattenkirk all play the right side.
    If Skjei plays second pair that leaves either Hajek or Staal on the first pair on left side.
    Everyone knows the Rangers are hell bent on playing d-men on their natural side.

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