Ozzy Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, The Dude said: Where were you when I was saying this all last week? Needed some back up. Ok man...you got your wish!!! I'm hoping all great things Dude man!! I wanna see this work, my brutha!! I'm pushing some big chips to the middle of the table!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torontonyr Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 This kid has 5 in-game minutes to score a goal or else he's a bust imo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 7 hours ago, BrooksBurner said: Panarin-Trocheck-Lafreniere Kreider-Zibanejad-Wheeler Vesey-Goodrow-Pitlick Cuylle-Bonino-Brodzinski Those have been the lines by 5v5 usage for 3 weeks, and there's a clear line of separation between each one with TOI. My guess would be Othmann plops in right where Pitlick was, and Vesey-Goodrow-Othmann is a good line. Call it a 4th line if you want, but it's not. It's the real 3rd line for this team, just like Panarin is the real 1st line. I don't understand the unnecessary illusions around the line numbers that surround this organization. Since 12/1, the Goodrow and Bonino lines are separated pretty much by a minute and change. There is no clear delineation between those 2 lines. It comes down to a shift or 2 over the course of a game. You're correct that Panarin is the true #1 based on ES ice time only, but I suspect that's because they spend the most time on the team (95th percentile) in the O zone and you're not changing when you have the puck in the opposition zone. Contrast that to Zib who's at less than 50th percentile in O zone time and you see the difference there, and frankly probably should get it's own tread as far as discussion on who is playing one and done hockey and who is doing a getter job in zone playing off the forecheck. Edited January 4 by Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Pete said: Since 12/1, the Goodrow and Bonino lines are separated pretty much by a minute and change. There is no clear delineation between those 2 lines. It comes down to a shift or 2 over the course of a game. You're correct that Panarin is the true #1 based on ES ice time only, but I suspect that's because they spend the most time on the team (95th percentile) in the O zone and you're not changing when you have the puck in the opposition zone. Contrast that to Zib who's at less than 50th percentile in O zone time and you see the difference there, and frankly probably should get it's own tread as far as discussion on who is playing one and done hockey and who is doing a getter job in zone playing off the forecheck. Could that be because Zibanejad and Kreider both kill penalties as compared to only Trocheck from the Panarin line mayyybe getting a little ok PK time? Meaning, they typically aren't the first line out after a PK and are kinda skipped a shift in the rotation due to this? It definitely seems like Panarins line spends much more time in the offensive zone than any other line. Can you pull the numbers of Bonino vs Goodrow as far as which line is more often pinned in their own zone? Seems like the Goodrow line is more often than not in their own zone and working very little in the offensive zone. They'll have maybe a shift or 2 when they are cycling, but it seems like they're always in their own zone. The Bonino line.. IDK. They're kinda all over. They're not really generating much offense, but we aren't seeing Bonino blocking shots in the D zone. Maybe it's just an entirely different game plan for those lines. Because it was pretty much a shot block fest when Bonino was on the 4th line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 11 hours ago, Pete said: The only reason he's here is because Pitlick is hurt and Riley Nash is hurt. Good on him for earning the right to be called up, but he got called up due to 3-4 forwards being hurt. Meh. I think they've been mulling this over for a little while. I'd think if they were just calling someone up because Pitlick is hurt, they'd call up Edstrom or Belzile. Though it coincides with Pitlick being hurt, I think this is a move to hopefully insert a bit of spunk as well as skill. They're looking for a little bit of lighting in a bottle for that lowly 3rd line. I don't know why they didn't slide Vesey up to try and pep it up a bit. I guess Laviolette really likes that 4th line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 12 minutes ago, The Dude said: Meh. I think they've been mulling this over for a little while. I'd think if they were just calling someone up because Pitlick is hurt, they'd call up Edstrom or Belzile. Though it coincides with Pitlick being hurt, I think this is a move to hopefully insert a bit of spunk as well as skill. They're looking for a little bit of lighting in a bottle for that lowly 3rd line. I don't know why they didn't slide Vesey up to try and pep it up a bit. I guess Laviolette really likes that 4th line. If Pitlick wasn't hurt, they wouldn't have called B.O. up IMO. Vince pretty much said the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 25 minutes ago, The Dude said: Could that be because Zibanejad and Kreider both kill penalties as compared to only Trocheck from the Panarin line mayyybe getting a little ok PK time? Meaning, they typically aren't the first line out after a PK and are kinda skipped a shift in the rotation due to this? Could be... I actually hadn't thought of that because NHL edge stats don't allow you to separate five on five from special teams. But if you look at a guy like Mitch Marner who kind of has similar ice time comparable to Zib, Marner is in the 75th percentile in offensive zone time even though he kills penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 11 hours ago, Pete said: I'd say playing him with Cuylle and Brodz is just throwing him to different kinds of wolves. How? They'll be sheltered and he's played with both players already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 9 minutes ago, Phil said: How? They'll be sheltered and he's played with both players already. Because that's not an NHL line. That's an AHL line. Brodz has already fallen off massively as he usually does. Cuylle is a rookie. Now Othmann in his first game. Throwing those three players out there with no support from veteran players is throwing them all to the wolves. I don't know that they have a whole lot of other options, but nothing about that line makes me remotely confident, let alone excites me. I guess the benefit is that they're playing Chicago, which is essentially an AHL team plus Bedard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Fair enough. I just feel like it's the best of a bunch of bad options. They're not calling him up because he's ripping it up. They're getting bundled with forward injuries and it's really screwed up their balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Phil said: Fair enough. I just feel like it's the best of a bunch of bad options. They're not calling him up because he's ripping it up. They're getting bundled with forward injuries and it's really screwed up their balance. That's not to say he hasn't earned it with his play, the stat sheet looks like he has, but that's not why he's here. If you want to spread out the shitty peanut butter: Kreider Mika Othmann Panarin Tro Laf Vesey Goodrow Wheeler Cuylle Boneroo Brodz Then you can just flip Wheeler if you don't like what you see. Vesey Goody Othmann would be a real pain in the ass to play against. It's essentially just slotting him into Shitpick slot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 18 minutes ago, Phil said: Fair enough. I just feel like it's the best of a bunch of bad options. They're not calling him up because he's ripping it up. They're getting bundled with forward injuries and it's really screwed up their balance. Yeah. They’re feeling the loss at this point. They dealt with the loss of Chytil and Kakko very well for a while. But it’s hard to sustain that when you are missing 2 forwards out of your top-9, and you’re maybe asking more than you should from a couple of other players. Now it’s clearly caught up to them some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 3 hours ago, Pete said: Since 12/1, the Goodrow and Bonino lines are separated pretty much by a minute and change. There is no clear delineation between those 2 lines. It comes down to a shift or 2 over the course of a game. You're correct that Panarin is the true #1 based on ES ice time only, but I suspect that's because they spend the most time on the team (95th percentile) in the O zone and you're not changing when you have the puck in the opposition zone. Contrast that to Zib who's at less than 50th percentile in O zone time and you see the difference there, and frankly probably should get it's own tread as far as discussion on who is playing one and done hockey and who is doing a getter job in zone playing off the forecheck. 12/1 isn't recent enough to see the disparity. 5v5 TOI last 10 games: As far as Panarin vs Zib line, 30+ more minutes in the last 10 games for the Panarin line. Even if you account for PK time, Trocheck has nearly as much PK time as both Zib/Kreider in this span, so there's still disparity. I could buy your theory of OZ control leading to extended shifts enough to tilt, but wouldn't that just be another data point of why they are the real line #1? Maybe it's just semantics, but when semantics leads to statements like "putting Othmann on line 1 with Zib is throwing him to the wolves", well, it just feels like it's an extra step removed from reality. It insinuates he's hopping on "the 1st line" and going to get 20 minutes immediately. He could play with Zib-Kreider and get 12-13 minutes of TOI, and I don't think it's pushing him off the deep end either. Edited January 4 by BrooksBurner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Thinking some more about this, but it'd be a little strange for Othmann to have been playing the left the whole time in Hartford, and for his first NHL game he's asked to play the right. I feel like they won't do that to him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vesey move over to the right. He's a vet and has had plenty of time on the right in the pros. That makes it Othmann-Goodrow-Vesey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Brutal combination to start for Othmann if this is what we see. Effectively the 4th line anchored by the worst forward on the team. I like the Cuylle-Goodrow-Vesey line though. Edited January 4 by BrooksBurner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 16 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said: 12/1 isn't recent enough to see the disparity. 5v5 TOI last 10 games: As far as Panarin vs Zib line, 30+ more minutes in the last 10 games for the Panarin line. Even if you account for PK time, Trocheck has nearly as much PK time as both Zib/Kreider in this span, so there's still disparity. I could buy your theory of OZ control leading to extended shifts enough to tilt, but wouldn't that just be another data point of why they are the real line #1? Maybe it's just semantics, but when semantics leads to statements like "putting Othmann on line 1 with Zib is throwing him to the wolves", well, it just feels like it's an extra step removed from reality. It insinuates he's hopping on "the 1st line" and going to get 20 minutes immediately. He could play with Zib-Kreider and get 12-13 minutes of TOI, and I don't think it's pushing him off the deep end either. I think we both agree on the destination of it not being outlandish playing BO on the first line, I just don't agree with a lot of the assumptions you're making around ice time and picking arbitrary dates to prove your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said: Brutal combination to start for Othmann if this is what we see. Effectively the 4th line anchored by the worst forward on the team. I like the Cuylle-Goodrow-Vesey line though. Yea this is bad for BO but probably the best possible combination for the team. Those three forwards just need to go out there and make sure they don't get scored on and eat a minute while everyone else rests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, torontonyr said: This kid has 5 in-game minutes to score a goal or else he's a bust imo Spoken like a true NYR fan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Pete said: I think we both agree on the destination of it not being outlandish playing BO on the first line, I just don't agree with a lot of the assumptions you're making around ice time and picking arbitrary dates to prove your point. The dates I used are not really arbitrary. Goodrow essentially missed two games in the beginning of December, so a better time slice is some time after he had come back from that. Usage is dynamic. It flows differently throughout the season. My point wasn't that Goodrow's line has always been line 3, or is guaranteed to remain line 3. It's that it has been for the most recent stretch of games. Fans just get too bogged down in line numbers to determine worth or fit. "Othmann can't play here because it's line 1", "Kakko was 1RW because he played with Zib", "Bonino is the 3C", "Goodrow is paid 3.6M and he is still stapled to the 4th line", etc, etc. It's all inaccurate to me. In Goodrow's case, he's 4th in 5v5 TOI in the last 10 games. It's really evident Lavi is leaning on him more. He's not even close to being used as a 4th liner right now. Edited January 4 by BrooksBurner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) And here’s an example of using line numbers to be unnecessarily hyperbolic. He’s right about side switching, but really digging into that “top line, 1RW” talk to make the idea seem more crazy than it would be. Edited January 4 by BrooksBurner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Did anyone here suggest Othmann playing on line 1? Looks like he's really going to have to bust ass to make an impression. Those ideas of having him with Goodrow and Vesey were probably the best scenario for Othmann on this current roster. As I've been saying though. A bottom 6 role for this kind of player is where you want him to start. It won't ruin his development. It's kinda where you have to imagine him for the next few years. He's not dependent on special teams to be effective. I wish the scenario was better to walk into for him. He's still going to do well IMO. The Rangers could use a spark. Here's his opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said: The dates I used are not really arbitrary. Goodrow essentially missed two games in the beginning of December, so a better time slice is some time after he had come back from that. Usage is dynamic. It flows differently throughout the season. My point wasn't that Goodrow's line has always been line 3, or is guaranteed to remain line 3. It's that it has been for the most recent stretch of games. Fans just get too bogged down in line numbers to determine worth or fit. "Othmann can't play here because it's line 1", "Kakko was 1RW because he played with Zib", "Bonino is the 3C", "Goodrow is paid 3.6M and he is still stapled to the 4th line", etc, etc. It's all inaccurate to me. In Goodrow's case, he's 4th in 5v5 TOI in the last 10 games. It's really evident Lavi is leaning on him more. He's not even close to being used as a 4th liner right now. I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's really an ice time discussion anymore at this point. I think it's more along the lines of talent level and expectation. The first line is the first line because they have the best offensive players, the fourth line is the fourth line because they have fourth liners. There are no expectations of offense if you're playing with Nick Bonino. There are offensive expectations if you're playing with Mika. If you're an offensive player, and it's your first go round in the league, you're not going to hone your game playing with Nick Bonino. You're not going to get any better playing with Nick Bonino, you're pretty much there to just eat minutes and make sure you don't get scored on. That's not a great landing spot for a rookie with offensive expectations. Edited January 4 by Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 26 minutes ago, Pete said: There are no expectations of offense if you're playing with Nick Bonino. There are offensive expectations if you're playing with Mika. If you're an offensive player, and it's your first go round in the league, you're not going to hone your game playing with Nick Bonino. You're not going to get any better playing with Nick Bonino, you're pretty much there to just eat minutes and make sure you don't get scored on. That's not a great landing spot for a rookie with offensive expectations. If Othmann somehow elevates Bonino he’s going to be a superstar in this league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 47 minutes ago, Pete said: I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's really an ice time discussion anymore at this point. I think it's more along the lines of talent level and expectation. The first line is the first line because they have the best offensive players, the fourth line is the fourth line because they have fourth liners. There are no expectations of offense if you're playing with Nick Bonino. There are offensive expectations if you're playing with Mika. If you're an offensive player, and it's your first go round in the league, you're not going to hone your game playing with Nick Bonino. You're not going to get any better playing with Nick Bonino, you're pretty much there to just eat minutes and make sure you don't get scored on. That's not a great landing spot for a rookie with offensive expectations. Nick Bonino? Nick Bonino! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravesy Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 21 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said: Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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