The Too Early but Not Too Distant Shesterkin Problem

[Br4d]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

And that's a pretty hot take. There's no such thing as five on five talent.

 

The teams that are good at five on five are well coached. 

 

The Rangers have nobody capable of and willing to carry the puck into the zone and score.  We've gotten so used to the perimeter game that we've completely forgotten what a good goal scorer looks like.  The only guy on the team that clearly has the talent, Panarin, avoids the slot like the plague.  Chytil will throw it up from anywhere past the blue line but he is streaky and disappears for weeks at a time.   The other guys with the possibility are Kreider, Kakko and Lafreniere and they all work inside the confines of the perimeter game.

 

You can't coach this.  Players that have the talent have to be willing to drive to the net and take high danger shots.  Those turn into scores much more often than three passes (each with turnover potential) and a shot from the top of the circles.

 

Panarin should get one high danger shot a game without passing the puck.  Kakko should probably get a pure possession shot every other game.  Chytil should be told to take shots first and look for others only when no shot is available.  Kreider and Lafreniere should both be driving into the slot more often than they are now.  They're both very dangerous with the puck in front and they both have the capability to miss that shot and still set up in front if the defense didn't control the puck.

 

The Rangers should also be taking more shots from the blue line.  K'Andre Miller has a very good shot from range but he doesn't take it often because of all the damn cycling that the team's vets like so much.  Trouba should be shooting more often.

 

All the dancing around just masks the fact that the Rangers vets don't want to be the one that takes the shot because none of them are goal scorers first.

 

 

[Pete]

20 minutes ago, Br4d said:

The Rangers have nobody capable of and willing to carry the puck into the zone and score. 

Oh, just carry the puck in and score, just like that? Because it's so easy LOL. Yes, you're right. They don't have McDavid, or Jack Hughes, or Auston Matthews. So they must not have the "5v5 talent". OK.

 

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We've gotten so used to the perimeter game that we've completely forgotten what a good goal scorer looks like.  The only guy on the team that clearly has the talent, Panarin, avoids the slot like the plague.  Chytil will throw it up from anywhere past the blue line but he is streaky and disappears for weeks at a time.   The other guys with the possibility are Kreider, Kakko and Lafreniere and they all work inside the confines of the perimeter game. 

 

You can't coach this.  Players that have the talent have to be willing to drive to the net and take high danger shots.  Those turn into scores much more often than three passes (each with turnover potential) and a shot from the top of the circles. 

 

Panarin should get one high danger shot a game without passing the puck.  Kakko should probably get a pure possession shot every other game.  Chytil should be told to take shots first and look for others only when no shot is available.  Kreider and Lafreniere should both be driving into the slot more often than they are now.  They're both very dangerous with the puck in front and they both have the capability to miss that shot and still set up in front if the defense didn't control the puck.

 

 

The issue with this team isn't getting to the middle, it's getting shots from the middle. They get inside and they get too cute looking for a back door play. And that mentality absolutely can be coached. The desire to shoot has nothing to do with skill or talent.

 

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The Rangers should also be taking more shots from the blue line.  K'Andre Miller has a very good shot from range but he doesn't take it often because of all the damn cycling that the team's vets like so much.  Trouba should be shooting more often.

Completely dated thinking. Point shots aren't the way goals are scored in the NHL today. They are low percentage shots that rarely generate rebounds. 

 

https://thecoachessite.com/the-problem-with-point-shots-according-to-analytics/

 

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All the dancing around just masks the fact that the Rangers vets don't want to be the one that takes the shot because none of them are goal scorers first.

 

Kreider and Zib are goal scorers. Kreider got too cute this year (and he admitted it). Panarin scored 30G before GG got here.

 

They have the talent, they need to be coached.

[Br4d]

Pete, it's Panarin.

 

His game has infected the rest of the squad.  Everybody is playing the perimeter game now and that game is not a winning game in the playoffs.

 

Panarin doesn't have a line that he fits on because the only guys who would really benefit from his cross-ice passes also play LW or are need to anchor another top 6 line.  Every year the Rangers try to find his fit and most years they move on from that guy who meshed with him for other reasons - usually cap-related which is ironic because Panarin's contract also causes the cap problems.

 

You're not going to hear this because you're married to the player but really he is not good for the Rangers.  He doesn't play good playoff hockey and everything else he does just doesn't matter at this point in this window.

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Pete, it's Panarin.

 

His game has infected the rest of the squad.  Everybody is playing the perimeter game now and that game is not a winning game in the playoffs.

 

Panarin doesn't have a line that he fits on because the only guys who would really benefit from his cross-ice passes also play LW or are need to anchor another top 6 line.  Every year the Rangers try to find his fit and most years they move on from that guy who meshed with him for other reasons - usually cap-related which is ironic because Panarin's contract also causes the cap problems.

 

You're not going to hear this because you're married to the player but really he is not good for the Rangers.  He doesn't play good playoff hockey and everything else he does just doesn't matter at this point in this window.

This is some high quality time foil hat shit. You may need to step away and get some perspective. 

 

They moved on from Strome for no reason. They paid Trocheck more LOL. Fast, same thing.

 

They added 4 quality players over the past 2 deadlines. Panarin isn't stopping them from doing anything. 

 

And of the kids were living up to their draft pedigree, this wouldn't be a conversation. But you keep saying we need to forget where they were drafted.

 

Maybe you should just forget Panarin salary? 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

This is some high quality time foil hat shit. You may need to step away and get some perspective. 

 

That's your prescription at this point.

 

I get that the Rangers have always had trouble scoring but newsflash: they have trouble scoring at even strength now.

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

And that's a pretty hot take. There's no such thing as five on five talent.

 

The teams that are good at five on five are well coached. 

 

Vegas was 1st in 5v5 xGF% and 2nd in CF% in the 3 years Gallant was there. Now Gallant stinks and it's all his fault the Rangers have stunk at 5v5 since 2015.

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Vegas was 1st in 5v5 xGF% and 2nd in CF% in the 3 years Gallant was there. Now Gallant stinks and it's all his fault the Rangers have stunk at 5v5 since 2015.

Vegas for 2+ years under Gallant was 17th in 5v5 shooting percentage. That tells me they had some more guys willing to shoot. That's coachable.

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

Vegas for 2+ years under Gallant was 17th in 5v5 shooting percentage. That tells me they had some more guys willing to shoot. That's coachable.

 

Agreed 100%. They had coachable players. The Rangers don't have enough of those.

[Pete]

36 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Agreed 100%. They had coachable players. The Rangers don't have enough of those.

They do. They just need a coach who they actually believe in. Not the shit GG was selling. 

[Br4d]

13 minutes ago, Pete said:

They do. They just need a coach who they actually believe in. Not the shit GG was selling. 

 

This is delusional.  They had a player's coach encouraging them to play a tight forechecking game and take shots from high danger positions.  Instead they played the perimeter game unless the kids, the people actually listening to GG, were on the ice.

 

You know why he kept throwing that line back together?

 

Because the kids kept deferring to the vets and playing the perimeter game he was trying to get away from.  He actually said that: "the kids defer to much to the vets."

 

"They know what they have to do."  They just won't do it.

[Phil]

I want to buy what you're selling @Pete and give the players the benefit of doubt, but this is back-to-back coaches who largely asked the team to do the same thing — to get to the middle of the ice, to go to the net, to create chaos, and play physical in order to make it all happen. This is twice now the top guys largely refused, because it's not in their nature to do so. I don't think there's a coach on earth who can get them to change their nature. What needs to change is the composition, but it's too early to pull that off yet, so we're basically going to run the clock out a while longer while a third coach learns the same thing Quinn and Gallant did: the stars on this team are dazzling when they want to be, when the game they want to play is made available to them. And they're infuriating when it's not.

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

I want to buy what you're selling @Pete and give the players the benefit of doubt, but this is back-to-back coaches who largely asked the team to do the same thing — to get to the middle of the ice, to go to the net, to create chaos, and play physical in order to make it all happen. This is twice now the top guys largely refused, because it's not in their nature to do so. I don't think there's a coach on earth who can get them to change their nature. What needs to change is the composition, but it's too early to pull that off yet, so we're basically going to run the clock out a while longer while a third coach learns the same thing Quinn and Gallant did: the stars on this team are dazzling when they want to be, when the game they want to play is made available to them. And they're infuriating when it's not.

Like I said. Getting to the middle with the puck isn't the issue. Shooting from the middle is the problem. They're too cute. 

[Br4d]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

Like I said. Getting to the middle with the puck isn't the issue. Shooting from the middle is the problem. They're too cute. 

 

Cuteness is a choice that the vets are making.  There's no reason to believe that will not continue with the next coach because it's been the case with the last two.

 

Sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards and getting the vets out of the perimeter game is step one in that process.

 

Now, who is the biggest proponent of controlling the puck as far from the net as possible?

[Pete]

Just now, Br4d said:

 

Cuteness is a choice that the vets are making.  There's no reason to believe that will not continue with the next coach because it's been the case with the last two.

 

Sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards and getting the vets out of the perimeter game is step one in that process.

 

Now, who is the biggest proponent of controlling the puck as far from the net as possible?

Shesterkin.

[Ozzy]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

Shesterkin.

 

Can't argue that one!!  LOL

[Pete]

But seriously, there's just a lack of logic here regarding Panarin's game. He draws defenders to him, and dishes the puck through lanes. Problem is lately his linemates aren't finding the lanes or there are leaving too many D between them and him. That's coaching. A coach will literally outline the lane and attacking in layers on video.

 

You want Panarin to take the puck to the middle, cool, the D will come with him, the middle will be clogged, and nothign will happen. Sound strategy there.

[BrooksBurner]

54 minutes ago, Phil said:

I want to buy what you're selling @Pete and give the players the benefit of doubt, but this is back-to-back coaches who largely asked the team to do the same thing — to get to the middle of the ice, to go to the net, to create chaos, and play physical in order to make it all happen. This is twice now the top guys largely refused, because it's not in their nature to do so. I don't think there's a coach on earth who can get them to change their nature. What needs to change is the composition, but it's too early to pull that off yet, so we're basically going to run the clock out a while longer while a third coach learns the same thing Quinn and Gallant did: the stars on this team are dazzling when they want to be, when the game they want to play is made available to them. And they're infuriating when it's not.

 

Yeah, and this is the frustrating part. Drury should have just rode Gallant another year or two if he doesn't plan a bigger corresponding roster change. Switching out the coach is akin to switching out the hamster on the hamster wheel. Maybe the next hamster they put in there will get to the top  

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

But seriously, there's just a lack of logic here regarding Panarin's game. He draws defenders to him, and dishes the puck through lanes. Problem is lately his linemates aren't finding the lanes or there are leaving too many D between them and him. That's coaching. A coach will literally outline the lane and attacking in layers on video.

 

You want Panarin to take the puck to the middle, cool, the D will come with him, the middle will be clogged, and nothign will happen. Sound strategy there.

 

I agree with this, but the lanes he looks for are taken away in the playoffs. That's not a linemate problem.

[Pete]

Or maybe the next coach will have a plan for when the star's game isn't available to them.

 

It's easy to say "Get pucks deep". But when the players say "OK, so we going hard around or cross corner? Who's F1 and how do you want them supported? Where should F3 be so there are no outnumbered chances coming back the other way? Gotta know where F1 and F2 are in that scenario."

 

And what they got was

 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I agree with this, but the lanes he looks for are taken away in the playoffs. That's not a linemate problem.

It's a coaching problem. Too much thinking, not enough reacting, nothing instinctual. Too many decisions, "where do I go, what do I do?"

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

It's a coaching problem. Too much thinking, not enough reacting, nothing instinctual. Too many decisions, "where do I go, what do I do?"

If the lanes are gone, it’s up to the player to do something different. Panarin doesn’t adjust and he’s out there for 19-20 min a game doing the same thing.

 

Blaming the coach for Panarin is like blaming a meteorologist for the weather at this point.

[Pete]

38 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

If the lanes are gone, it’s up to the player to do something different. Panarin doesn’t adjust and he’s out there for 19-20 min a game doing the same thing.

 

Blaming the coach for Panarin is like blaming a meteorologist for the weather at this point.

Well if he pulls up at the blue line, doesn't see an open man, and doesn't know where his linemates are going, what's he supposed to do? Throw it deep! OK, that's just giving the puck to the opponent if there's no one from our team behind the net. Dumping it in is wildly ineffective without a retrieval plan. That's coaching.

[The Dude]

22 hours ago, Pete said:

It's hard to say right now because nobody knows what the next two seasons will look like.

 

If we get a new coach and the same results, then it's time to start taking apart the team. And if you're going to be looking at trading Panarin or Zib or Kreider... You may as well move Shesty too at that point. Maybe even Fox. Because the teams going to go from bad to worse. 

Agreed. But you gave me shit for suggesting this a few weeks ago. 

 

 

If the coaching change fails, I'm ok with tearing it down to the studs again. Maybe do it somewhat right this time around.  Though this formula wasn't terrible,  Gorton and Drury really fucked themselves with all these NTCs as well as overpaying a few guys. 

 

[The Dude]

8 hours ago, Br4d said:

My take is they didn't have enough 5 on 5 talent when facing teams that actually had 5 on 5 talent.

 

You can talk zone entries and protecting their own crease as much as you want and it's not going to change the fact that the Rangers have nobody good at going to the goal and scoring.  High danger chances that don't turn into goals as often as the Rangers don't are a matter of scoring talent and the Rangers just don't have that at even strength.

 

They had one.. Never gave him a chance.  

[BrooksBurner]

18 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

They had one.. Never gave him a chance.  

He said “and scoring”, so…