Should the Rangers Consider Trading K'Andre Miller?

[BrooksBurner]

15 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Who's bent out of shape? 

@Ozzy flew off the handle and made very derogatory remarks as per usual. A mod had to clean it up before you saw it

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

@Ozzy flew off the handle and made very derogatory remarks as per usual. A mod had to clean it up before you saw it

 

Nothing new under the sun!  LOL 

[Keirik]

4 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

Who's bent out of shape? 

No one. I’m simply saying there isn’t much of a reason to question that.

 

3 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

These numbers lack a lot of context.  All EV TOI isn't created equal, especially dmen.  ADA was force fed offensive opportunities.  He's a guy you put on the ice after the other team ices the puck specifically to capitalize on tired opponents. He's the guy you take off the ice when the opponent's top 6 is out.  Miller is deployed in a much more defense focused role.  He's a guy put out there to go against the other teams top 6.  It actually makes Miller's point total that much more impressive given the role he is asked to play.

Right, but that’s not always in the coaches control. Zone starts lack context too. In 19/20 the Rangers had the second lowest faceoff win % in the entire NHL.  Hard to use the narrative of OZ starts when you aren’t controlling the puck from the jump. It also doesn’t take into account exactly how goals were scored. Of a set play? Off the rush? Etc. It’s not just as simple of protecting minutes. You only get the last change at home and just taking d/o zone starts and extrapolating an entire argument with a blanket does a bit of a disservice to the conversation. No one can sit here on either side and pretend they know exactly how or whyall even strength points were achieved.

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

6 hours ago, Phil said:

I don't think the two players compare at all, or very little. Miller is pacing what he's pacing at nearly 100% even strength. DeAngelo is, always has been, and always will be, a PP specialist. He does what he does because his supreme offensive skills generally translate often on the man advantage.

 

Yes, they're both bad in their own end, but this isn't really an apples to apples comparison.

 

At even strength in his last full season here, DeAngelo had 12 goals and 34 points in 68 games. At even strength this season, Miller has 8 goals and 33 points in 68 games. That DeAngelo played the PP well doesn't negate his ES performance offensively. Just sayin'.

 

[BrooksBurner]

For anyone who thinks some of us are laying into Miller too much defensively, just keep your eyes on him on that 2nd goal last night:

 

https://www.nhl.com/video/noesen-ties-the-game/t-336525128/c-16106214

 

Zero reason to chase into the corner. Makes no sense. Trouba blew position too, but that's nothing new either.

[Albatrosss]

As much as Miller sucks defensively, must admit that he’s much better than ADA in that regard. His reach alone saves him from permanent AHL spot every game. 

[Albatrosss]

46 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

For anyone who thinks some of us are laying into Miller too much defensively, just keep your eyes on him on that 2nd goal last night:

 

https://www.nhl.com/video/noesen-ties-the-game/t-336525128/c-16106214

 

Zero reason to chase into the corner. Makes no sense. Trouba blew position too, but that's nothing new either.

That was a brain fart times 5. Wtf was he thinking? Thats not even his side of the ice!!

[Keirik]

5 minutes ago, CCCP said:

As much as Miller sucks defensively, must admit that he’s much better than ADA in that regard. His reach alone saves him from permanent AHL spot every game. 

Sort of. Sort of no. It’s very difficult to quantify, but I’ve watched enough hockey to make me scratch my head with Miller a lot more than I ever did with many others. It’s very clear that he is new to the position specifically. His decision making ability leaves a fuck ton to be desired.  He’s a talented athlete and hockey player so he makes you forget those shortcomings in defensive IQ. But he gets exposed quite a lot. I’m not sure what the answer is but as @BrooksBurner said, sometimes you’re left iwith just the concept of “wtf are you doing there” that I expect more in bantam rather than NHL 

[siddious]

IMO you get him a good defense coach and he’s a potential star in this league. You don’t trade that.

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, siddious said:

IMO you get him a good defense coach and he’s a potential star in this league. You don’t trade that.

 

A beer for this man!  ...make it 2!

[RJWantsTheCup]

Miller’s lack of defensive discipline has a lot to do from lack of experience at the position.  Hard to believe he’s always had bad coaching.  I’ll always wonder why he was moved from forward.  

[Phil]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

At even strength in his last full season here, DeAngelo had 12 goals and 34 points in 68 games. At even strength this season, Miller has 8 goals and 33 points in 68 games. That DeAngelo played the PP well doesn't negate his ES performance offensively. Just sayin'.

 

 

Fair enough, and I recognize it's not a fair comparison, but look at the larger body of work. Of DeAngelo's 194 career points, 80 are power play points. That's more than 40%. He's a PP guy.

[Pete]

18 hours ago, Long live the King said:

Why are we trying to compare Miller and ADA? 

We shouldn't. Was just an opportunity for a "gotcha!" moment.

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

We shouldn't. Was just an opportunity for a "gotcha!" moment.

Who says we shouldn’t make any comparison? You? I think there’s plenty of parallels especially when you consider the cap world and what we are going to use space for. There are plenty of differences too. If you plan on speaking of me though, just at least quote me instead of trying to sneak one in.  

it’s not a gotcha moment. I was pretty surprised myself when I read your original statement because I’m sure we all remember the 1107 or so pages of ADA bickering. I also remember how it was always told that ADA was redundant because of Fox. Now I read how valuable Miller is because he can pace the same EV points as ADA even though he plays an incredibly poor version of defense, just like ADA. 
 

The problem is, when I bring up ADA, it gets taken as we made a mistake by cutting him loose. I’m fine with the overall outcome so to speak but there are a lot of similarities between Miller and him when it comes to where they excel and where they certainly do not. I give a slight edge to Miller based on sheer size and reach. However he still doesn’t actually know how to play defense in a game where offense gets rewarded a heck of a lot more in cap hits but solid D is where you actually win games. 
 

  I’m not necessarily saying we should trade him, but it’s something to be explored. I’m not sure if his spitting incident turned off any teams but he does hold a lot of value for just raw offensive talent and we still are a team that does have Adam Fox and a heck of a lot of NTC obstacles.

[Albatrosss]

trade Miller, sign Orlov.  

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Who says we shouldn’t make any comparison? You? I think there’s plenty of parallels especially when you consider the cap world and what we are going to use space for. There are plenty of differences too. If you plan on speaking of me though, just at least quote me instead of trying to sneak one in.  

it’s not a gotcha moment. I was pretty surprised myself when I read your original statement because I’m sure we all remember the 1107 or so pages of ADA bickering. I also remember how it was always told that ADA was redundant because of Fox. Now I read how valuable Miller is because he can pace the same EV points as ADA even though he plays an incredibly poor version of defense, just like ADA. 
 

The problem is, when I bring up ADA, it gets taken as we made a mistake by cutting him loose. I’m fine with the overall outcome so to speak but there are a lot of similarities between Miller and him when it comes to where they excel and where they certainly do not. I give a slight edge to Miller based on sheer size and reach. However he still doesn’t actually know how to play defense in a game where offense gets rewarded a heck of a lot more in cap hits but solid D is where you actually win games. 
 

  I’m not necessarily saying we should trade him, but it’s something to be explored. I’m not sure if his spitting incident turned off any teams but he does hold a lot of value for just raw offensive talent and we still are a team that does have Adam Fox and a heck of a lot of NTC obstacles.

ADA best year here was 53 points in 68 games with 20 of them coming on the PP and 63% OZone starts. Key is about to surpass 40ish points with 3 coming on the PP and 48% OZone starts.

 

There's no comparison between the two players. Nor is there a comparison on what we should do/should have done with the 2 players. It was easy to walk away from ADA with Fox, Trouba, and Schneider in the wings. There's no replacement for Miller in the pipeline.

 

Again, it's not a comparable player or situation.

 

It was also a "gotcha" moment. You can admit it. We're all friends here.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Pete

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, CCCP said:

trade Miller, sign Orlov.  

 

Why? Isn't the point in not keeping Miller based on dollars and not wanting to pay the freight? I regret to inform you that Orlov is about to get paid. He's arguably the top UFA defenseman on the market this summer. Certainly top-three with Severson and I guess Gostisbehere?

[Ozzy]

I still would like to see K' Andre under a guy like Brind'Amor or Queneville.  I can't cut that kid loose without seeing a season under a true structured system.  This fly by the seat of your pants scheme we use is bullshit.  No one knows what the hell we're looking at here.

 

We have some big time Rangers fans, and extremely knowledgeable dudes on this board, and they don't even know what the hell they're doing out there! 

 

I sure as fuck have no clue what it is...my best guess is it's a "Man-Zone-Lock-Trap-Free for all-Fuckfest"  LOL

 

[Sod16]

Just curious, what do people think Miller brings in a trade (pre-signing)?

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

ADA best year here was 53 points in 68 games with 20 of them coming on the PP and 63% OZone starts. Key is about to surpass 40ish points with 3 coming on the PP and 48% OZone starts.

 

There's no comparison between the two players. Nor is there a comparison on what we should do/should have done with the 2 players. It was easy to walk away from ADA with Fox, Trouba, and Schneider in the wings. There's no replacement for Miller in the pipeline.

 

Again, it's not a comparable player or situation.

 

It was also a "gotcha" moment. You can admit it. We're all friends here.

So you are ignoring that ADAs best year at even strength was identical to keys current year at EV? 

They have nearly identical stats at EV. Identical. The only difference is that Miller plays more EV minutes. Production wise, it’s identical. And I’ve already provided evidence of how zone starts don’t show the whole picture when we were the second worst team from the faceoff.  
 

Im not understanding  the “in the wings” comment. Fox and Trouba were already on the team. They weren’t in the wings. Trouba played more. Fox played just as much as ADA. While Millers points are valuable, they aren’t as valuable when you can’t play the position properly. Forwards are the guys.”in the wings” to make up Millers EV production. You either are dropping one fwd to keep Miller in a cap world or you are not paying a 50 point d. It’s a discussion to be had and one we had in the past albeit sped up by some questionable behavior. 

and again, nope. It wasn’t a gotcha moment. I simply wanted to have the discussion and you opened the door.  

[Pete]

33 minutes ago, Keirik said:

So you are ignoring that ADAs best year at even strength was identical to keys current year at EV? They have nearly identical stats at EV. Identical. The only difference is that Miller plays more EV minutes. Production wise, it’s identical. And I’ve already provided evidence of how zone starts don’t show the whole picture when we were the second worst team from the faceoff.

Where are you getting this from? Miller plays more ES because he can. He plays more minutes against better competition and isn't sheltered by O Zone starts. What metrics are you using to prove out the ADA is better defensively? Actually, forget that, it's irrelevant because...

 

Quote

 Im not understanding  the “in the wings” comment. Fox and Trouba were already on the team. They weren’t in the wings. Trouba played more. Fox played just as much as ADA.

I said Schneider was in the wings. Simply put, ADA outlived his usefulness. Combined with the fact he's a cunt, it's pretty easy to see why you keep Miller and move on from ADA. This isn't a comparison, it's 2 names with nothing in common that were drawn from a hat in a "gotcha!" moment.

 

Quote

While Millers points are valuable, they aren’t as valuable when you can’t play the position properly. Forwards are the guys.”in the wings” to make up Millers EV production. You either are dropping one fwd to keep Miller in a cap world or you are not paying a 50 point d. It’s a discussion to be had and one we had in the past albeit sped up by some questionable behavior. 

 

Yea this whole part doesn't make any sense to me. Forwards in the wings? Who's playing 2nd pair left D if Miller walks tomorrow? Hajek? Harpur? Nikkola? Robertson? They replaced ADA with a cheap effective player and haven't missed a beat. That certainly wouldn't be the case with Miller.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Pete

[Albatrosss]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Why? Isn't the point in not keeping Miller based on dollars and not wanting to pay the freight? I regret to inform you that Orlov is about to get paid. He's arguably the top UFA defenseman on the market this summer. Certainly top-three with Severson and I guess Gostisbehere?

fine, throw in Panarin

[Keirik]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Where are you getting this from? Miller plays more ES because he can. He plays more minutes against better competition and isn't sheltered by O Zone starts. What metrics are you using to prove out the ADA is better defensively? Actually, forget that, it's irrelevant because...

 

I said Schneider was in the wings. Simply put, ADA outlived his usefulness. Combined with the fact he's a cunt, it's pretty easy to see why you keep Miller and move on from ADA. This isn't a comparison, it's 2 names with nothing in common that were drawn from a hat in a "gotcha!" moment.

 

Yea this whole part doesn't make any sense to me. Forwards in the wings? Who's playing 2nd pair left D if Miller walks tomorrow? Hajek? Harpur? Nikkola? Robertson? They replaced ADA with a cheap effective player and haven't missed a beat. That certainly wouldn't be the case with Miller.

where am I getting statistics from? His stats? 

 

myself and brooks both posted the EV stats from ADA and Miller in 19/20 and this year.  You are 100% correct though. They replaced ADA and definitely did t miss a beat. They middld in mediocrity  just as much all season. 
 

 

and again, this isnt a gotcha moment. It’s irrelevant to the conversation and I’m pretty tired of reading it when it has nothing to do with the conversation. You’re just trying to be inflammatory for the sake of inflammation. If you don’t like the conversation,  move on. It’s pretty simple. 
 

the “forwards in the wings” is how to duplicate Millers offensive output. It’s not a complicated concept to grasp. We simply are going to have to make a tough decision. Pay Miller or replace him with a cheaper defensive minded D in a return for Miller or or FA and hope that extra cap space we use to keep another FWD makes up that offensive output Miller does. 
 

 

Miller is lined up for 5m or so this offseason. Chytil and Laf both up. Kakko and Lindgren next year. Who goes then? Because you are t keeping Miller for pennies

 

[Pete]

19 minutes ago, Keirik said:

where am I getting statistics from? His stats? 

 

myself and brooks both posted the EV stats from ADA and Miller in 19/20 and this year.  You are 100% correct though. They replaced ADA and definitely did t miss a beat. They middld in mediocrity  just as much all season. 
 

 

and again, this isnt a gotcha moment. It’s irrelevant to the conversation and I’m pretty tired of reading it when it has nothing to do with the conversation. You’re just trying to be inflammatory for the sake of inflammation. If you don’t like the conversation,  move on. It’s pretty simple. 

 

 

Take your own advice, homie. ADA is irrelevant to the conversation and you can't keep yourself in check.

 

Quote

the “forwards in the wings” is how to duplicate Millers offensive output. It’s not a complicated concept to grasp. We simply are going to have to make a tough decision. Pay Miller or replace him with a cheaper defensive minded D in a return for Miller or or FA and hope that extra cap space we use to keep another FWD makes up that offensive output Miller does. 
 

 

Miller is lined up for 5m or so this offseason. Chytil and Laf both up. Kakko and Lindgren next year. Who goes then? Because you are t keeping Miller for pennies

Gonna talk like that, find yourself someone else to talk to.

[Keirik]

24 minutes ago, Pete said:

Take your own advice, homie. ADA is irrelevant to the conversation and you can't keep yourself in check.

 

Gonna talk like that, find yourself someone else to talk to.

Well, I’m sorry you can’t see why there can be a connection between 33 points in 68 vs 34 points in 68