Rangers, Fox Have Preliminary Contract Discussions

[LindG1000]

Unless Fox is being coy here and the "starts with a 9" means he wants exactly 9,999,999 per year, let's be honest with ourselves - for a defender of Fox's caliber, that's already a discount. He could easily look at the list of contracts above and ask for 11 within reason, let alone 10.

There's a certain range where it becomes impossible for the guy to be paid what he's worth because of the cap. Fox is in that range. If he doesn't want 8 figures a year, awesome, that's a deal.

[Ozzy]

I think you guys have a point on both sides of this;  I see Keith's point of view by at least maybe asking to see if a bridge contract might work for Cap reasons, but I wouldn't hold Foxy's feet to the fire on account of it.  If there's a "no go" on that, if it's me...I'm not messing around with Fox.  He's worth every last dime on an 8 year $9-$9.5 million deal.

I'd fork it over, and say THANK YOU!  I'd unload whomever we have to in order to keep this guy a life long Ranger!

...oh yeah, and give Fox the "C" already, for fuck sake!!!  LOL

[Keirik]

18 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

First point is: Great, Fox wanted to come here.  Doesn't mean you even attempt to nickel and dime him or abuse his desire to play her to save a buck.

Not following the connection to playoff wins and Fox? You word for word said, "Winning teams in todays nhl aren’t around a D player being your best player. He cannot contractually surpass our best offensive players."  Those teams spent boat loads of money on the top offensive players in the game and haven't won anything.  So yea, D is important.

When I say pay him market value, and you say that's "bend[ing] over backwards", the obvious alternative is low balling him.  Market value is in the $9 million range per year.  Bridge or no bridge.  He won the Norris trophy.  Were not paying more now and hoping the production increases. 

Offering someone a bridge deal of 7m is far from a low ball or nickel and dime offer. 

so who are you dumping then? Kakko or Alf?  PayFox 10m now and have the following guaranteed money on the books u til 24/25

10m fox

11.6 bread

6.5 kreider

8.5 ziby

8m trouba

5.6 shesty

 50 m for 6 players  and realistically there would be 30-40m cap space if the cap rises 10m over 3 years and that’s not including Kakko who will have already re-upped. If he happens to have a lights out year this year then what do you do with him? Is he okay to bridge? 
What is ALF starts realizing his potential? Is he okay to bridge? 

 

you can cherry pick any superstar you want  but winning teams usually have a culture.  Ziby just took a hometown discount.  Bridging Fox handsomely isn’t an insult. Teams do it. Pasta was bridged. He’s still making Dunkin’ commercials. Geuntzel  was bridged. Pointe was bridged. 
 

I love Fox. We all do. That doesn’t mean we should forget there is a salary cap. 

[Keirik]

28 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I think you guys have a point on both sides of this;  I see Keith's point of view by at least maybe asking to see if a bridge contract might work for Cap reasons, but I wouldn't hold Foxy's feet to the fire on account of it.  If there's a "no go" on that, if it's me...I'm not messing around with Fox.  He's worth every last dime on an 8 year $9-$9.5 million deal.

I'd fork it over, and say THANK YOU!  I'd unload whomever we have to in order to keep this guy a life long Ranger!

...oh yeah, and give Fox the "C" already, for fuck sake!!!  LOL

I’m not even remotely suggesting you tell Fox “okay, here’s 4.5m…..” because that’s idiotic. I use examples of other teams that have guys in different stages of careers that bridge here and there to keep a team together.  I try to see if I can get 3-4 years or so at 7m which takes him to 26-27 and either puts him right at last rfa or first year of ufa at 27. Buys us time to see how others unfold. We also really are banking someone is taking Kreider or Trouba or both with no retention. That’s possible but not probable unless we sweeten it. 

[josh]

The Ole I'll give you 9m... spread over 2 years 

[Long live the King]

15 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Offering someone a bridge deal of 7m is far from a low ball or nickel and dime offer. 

so who are you dumping then? Kakko or Alf?  PayFox 10m now and have the following guaranteed money on the books u til 24/25

10m fox

11.6 bread

6.5 kreider

8.5 ziby

8m trouba

5.6 shesty

 50 m for 6 players  and realistically there would be 30-40m cap space if the cap rises 10m over 3 years and that’s not including Kakko who will have already re-upped. If he happens to have a lights out year this year then what do you do with him? Is he okay to bridge? 
What is ALF starts realizing his potential? Is he okay to bridge? 

 

you can cherry pick any superstar you want  but winning teams usually have a culture.  Ziby just took a hometown discount.  Bridging Fox handsomely isn’t an insult. Teams do it. Pasta was bridged. He’s still making Dunkin’ commercials. Geuntzel  was bridged. Pointe was bridged. 
 

I love Fox. We all do. That doesn’t mean we should forget there is a salary cap. 

Yes, Kakko and Laf are prime candidates to bridge until CK and Trouba are tradeable.  Even if they both improve, neither one is close to bringing home any hardware.  Fox has a trophy on his shelf that says he's the best Dman in the league.

[Keirik]

5 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

Yes, Kakko and Laf are prime candidates to bridge until CK and Trouba are tradeable.  Even if they both improve, neither one is close to bringing home any hardware.  Fox has a trophy on his shelf that says he's the best Dman in the league.

So does Pk Subban. How did that go ?

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Keirik said:

So does Pk Subban. How did that go ?

IIRC, they could have had him for $7M but they bridged him, and he won the Norris, so they paid him $9M/AAV.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Pete

[Long live the King]

5 minutes ago, Keirik said:

So does Pk Subban. How did that go ?

PK won the Norris while on a bridge deal and we're talking about Fox signing the same deal now, that PK signed in 2014.  I think that's a good deal.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

IIRC, they could have had him for $7M but they bridged him, and he won the Norris, so they paid him $9M/AAV.

Nope, it was even less. Either 5x5 or 6x6. They ended up having to go 9.

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

IIRC, they could have had him for $7M but they bridged him, and he won the Norris, so they paid him $9M/AAV.

Well the point is things change. They also shipped him out so yeah. The earlier we sign Fox to his max deal the  sooner we limit even short term spending or rounding out our roster. 50m committed to 6 players until 2024 is rough for the rest of the team. Signing him for more than you just reupped ziby also seems a bit strange in my eyes but that’s neither here nor there.  Other teams have spent which is very true but there also are other teams with track records of having some pretty good bargain bridge deals. In no way am I saying to insult the guy. I’m just saying there are cap rules in place for a reason. So what if other teams take big risks with the idea that it’ll save em 2 million later when there are plenty of examples where it ended up being an overpayment by year 4 of 8.  I’m willing to risk what will happen in 4 years because 4 years later, we have a much clearer picture of the cap, our other “can’t misses” in Kakko and Fox, and how close we’ve come to winning a cup. 

[Pete]

28 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Well the point is things change. They also shipped him out so yeah. The earlier we sign Fox to his max deal the  sooner we limit even short term spending or rounding out our roster. 50m committed to 6 players until 2024 is rough for the rest of the team. Signing him for more than you just reupped ziby also seems a bit strange in my eyes but that’s neither here nor there.  Other teams have spent which is very true but there also are other teams with track records of having some pretty good bargain bridge deals. In no way am I saying to insult the guy. I’m just saying there are cap rules in place for a reason. So what if other teams take big risks with the idea that it’ll save em 2 million later when there are plenty of examples where it ended up being an overpayment by year 4 of 8.  I’m willing to risk what will happen in 4 years because 4 years later, we have a much clearer picture of the cap, our other “can’t misses” in Kakko and Fox, and how close we’ve come to winning a cup. 

Yea I mean trading him because he was too colorful really doesn't mean anything to this convo.

If you Google "PK Subban bridge deal" there's literally a litany of articles saying that when it comes to stars, bridge deals are to be avoided. 

Like you bridge Laf and Kakko hoping you get MacKinnon. But Fox already doin it. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Pete

[Keirik]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yea I mean trading him because he was too colorful really doesn't mean anything to this convo.

If you Google "PK Subban bridge deal" there's literally a litany of articles saying that when it comes to stars, bridge deals are to be avoided. 

Like you bridge Laf and Kakko hoping you get MacKinnon. But Fox already doin it. 

Different strokes for different folks . I can also google how overpaid Subban is too 

 

we still are ignoring how we are putting a squad on the ice with 50m tied up in 6 players. I think we have 19m on cap space next offseason. Tie up 10 for Fox and you’re left with 9m for a backup goalie, a 3c assuming Chytil is your new 2c since you can’t afford to keep Strome,  assume you want to keep Blais otherwise the Buch trade is even worse, replace Rooney (with Barron I assume who has some performance bonuses you have to hope he doesn’t reach) , say goodbye to Gauthier which is fine but then you still need a body to replace him with,  and a backup goalie assuming you trade Georgie’s rights since he has arb and thry couldn’t afford a raise….

 

it’s definitely doable. However, does that make us better next year?  If you can get Fox at around 7 even if it’s for 3 years, that extra few million might be the difference in keeping someone like a Strome (wishful thinking but still) and help unlock our window since I imagine the goal this year 100% is playoffs and gain experience to allow us to  elongate a window rather than remain lateral or take a step back .

 

   

Edited October 21, 2021 by Keirik

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Different strokes for different folks . I can also google how overpaid Subban is too 

 

we still are ignoring how we are putting a squad on the ice with 50m tied up in 6 players. I think we have 19m on cap space next offseason. Tie up 10 for Fox and you’re left with 9m for a backup goalie, a 3c assuming Chytil is your new 2c since you can’t afford to keep Strome,  assume you want to keep Blais otherwise the Buch trade is even worse, replace Rooney (with Barron I assume who has some performance bonuses you have to hope he doesn’t reach) , say goodbye to Gauthier which is fine but then you still need a body to replace him with,  and a backup goalie assuming you trade Georgie’s rights since he has arb and thry couldn’t afford a raise….

 

it’s definitely doable. However, does that make us better next year?  If you can get Fox at around 7 even if it’s for 3 years, that extra few million might be the difference in keeping someone like a Strome (wishful thinking but still) and help unlock our window since I imagine the goal this year 100% is playoffs and gain experience to allow us to  elongate a window rather than remain lateral or take a step back .

 

   

Yea I don't get how Subban being overpaid today has anything to do with how he got to his contract. The fact of the matter is when you bridge a star you almost always wind up paying for it later.

I know how much is tied up in how many players, all that means is that you try to get out of paying CK and Trouba, not Fox. 

[Keirik]

28 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yea I don't get how Subban being overpaid today has anything to do with how he got to his contract. The fact of the matter is when you bridge a star you almost always wind up paying for it later.

I know how much is tied up in how many players, all that means is that you try to get out of paying CK and Trouba, not Fox. 

That's impossible until 2024 which is exactly when it's the right time to offer Fox the mother load. 

[LindG1000]

I think the problem with bridging Fox is that if you guess wrong and the contract expires in the year the cap goes up a shit-ton because the escrow is paid off, you're paying him 13+ until he's 34.

Having him locked up until 2030 is already possible. Just do that.

[Keirik]

5 minutes ago, G1000 said:

I think the problem with bridging Fox is that if you guess wrong and the contract expires in the year the cap goes up a shit-ton because the escrow is paid off, you're paying him 13+ until he's 34.

Having him locked up until 2030 is already possible. Just do that.

Always a possibility but it's a problem im willing to chance if it means we get one more piece now and keep this version of the window open 

[LindG1000]

4 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Always a possibility but it's a problem im willing to chance if it means we get one more piece now and keep this version of the window open 

I don't think the, what...1.5 million you save on the bridge deal - helps you in any meaningful way here. Certainly not when you can look at this window as the Zib-Panarin-Fox-Shesterkin window and the next as the Kakko-Laf-Fox-Shesterkin window. 

[Phil]

27 minutes ago, Keirik said:

That's impossible until 2024 which is exactly when it's the right time to offer Fox the mother load. 

It's not impossible. It's just easier then. No-moves don't prevent trades from occurring, they prevent trades from occurring to teams the player doesn't agree to go to.

[Keirik]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

It's not impossible. It's just easier then. No-moves don't prevent trades from occurring, they prevent trades from occurring to teams the player doesn't agree to go to.

So in all seriousness. Do you think either Kreider or Trouba wound agree to go anywhere in the next 3 years? 

[Phil]

Just now, Keirik said:

So in all seriousness. Do you think either Kreider or Trouba wound agree to go anywhere in the next 3 years? 

I don't think so, no, but I'm not ruling it out. I'd never have thought Staal would go to Detroit, or that Voracek would go to Columbus again, or that Duncan Keith would accept a trade to Edmonton, etc. Weird shit happens.

[Keirik]

3 hours ago, Phil said:

I don't think so, no, but I'm not ruling it out. I'd never have thought Staal would go to Detroit, or that Voracek would go to Columbus again, or that Duncan Keith would accept a trade to Edmonton, etc. Weird shit happens.

Fair enough, but that would need to be kind of worked out before hand or at least given a gauge of interest before hand. If not we are looking at cap crunch and losing a bigger future piece. 

[LindG1000]

8 hours ago, Keirik said:

Fair enough, but that would need to be kind of worked out before hand or at least given a gauge of interest before hand. If not we are looking at cap crunch and losing a bigger future piece. 

So...I do think Trouba would waive if you could trade him to wherever his wife gets placed/gets work. That's a year or two off. Kreider...no idea.

Thing is that the guys you bridge aren't the Foxes of the world. He's a Norris winning defender at age 22 - you go long and big there because you want the prime of the prime. Laf and Kakko should get those Mackinnon bridges.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I don't really get the argument to bridge the superstar Norris Trophy winner so we can possibly give the struggling Laf and Kakko big contracts? Bridge Fox so we can give big contracts to Laf and Kakko IF (and thats a big IF) they get close to Fox' level of play. Doesn't make sense.

You lock in the known and bridge the unknown. There's nothing unknown with Fox but both Kakko and Laf are still big question marks.

Even if (again, big if) Kakko comes back from the injury and puts up 70 points in 75 games this season you can still bridge him untill Kreider's contract is up. Same with Laf in 2023.

[jsm7302]

7 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

I don't really get the argument to bridge the superstar Norris Trophy winner so we can possibly give the struggling Laf and Kakko big contracts? Bridge Fox so we can give big contracts to Laf and Kakko IF (and thats a big IF) they get close to Fox' level of play. Doesn't make sense.

You lock in the known and bridge the unknown. There's nothing unknown with Fox but both Kakko and Laf are still big question marks.

Even if (again, big if) Kakko comes back from the injury and puts up 70 points in 75 games this season you can still bridge him untill Kreider's contract is up. Same with Laf in 2023.