Looking Ahead: Seven Quick Thoughts

[Giacomin]

I don't put stock in a player leading his losing team in scoring. Hes obviously not the problem, but hes not helping them win.

 

Stone isnt a difference maker, is more along the lines of what I meant. Miller wasn't either IMO.

 

Miller is a better skater, probably more well rounded and as a person who didn't buy into Miller being physical, id say hes also more physical than Stone. Stone is a year older as well.

 

Definitely not ready to send a boatload of picks and prospects for Mark frikken Stone.

'

Dude, this was a possible solution to "needing to ice a team with some vets next year". Our third 1st rounder and Tampa's 2019 pick (if they don't win the cup this year), plus we take on Ryan salary for Stone. Or the same 1st, a third this year and next, Lindgren and Gilmour/O'Gara. That add 2 vets, one a legit 1st line scorer who is 25 and plays a complete game. And we still have most of the picks.

 

It is understandable you underrate Stone, you are not the only one, he's hype free. However, he's logged 62 points in 58 games this year. Plus/minus usually doesn't tell much, but there are no Ottawa regs in the plus except Stone is a +9. For reference, Karlsson is a minus 27. Their coach considers Stone one of the best D forwards on the team and lauds his leadership. He doesn't make mistakes, no stupid penalties, plays all ST.

 

Coincidently, just read an article today suggesting the Av's offer sheet him for 7 x 7+ mil (thinking Melnyk can't match) and giving up their 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Interestingly, they already have Ottawas 1st and 3rd this year. Doubt we get the first unmatched offer sheet since 2007, but it is a good barometer for value.

 

It's not fair to compare Miller to Stone, I didn't. He is not in his league, nor is it relevent. Even if you consider him improving away from AV, he is still a second liner. Stone is a 1st on pretty much any team.

 

You obviously don't like Stone and Ryan for essentially our last first and a Tampas 2nd next year. That's fine, but IMO Ottawa wouldn't make that mistake. I could see Colorado offering better picks, but doubt they want the extra salary in Ryan. And you never know how impulsive the owner gets if he has a team ready to take on Ryan that isn't part of a Karlsson deal. He is soooo cheap.

[Giacomin]

Im really not in agreement with you about Shattenkirk. You are writing the guy off really quickly. This is a guy who took less money to come here. Guy wanted to be a Ranger. Im not huge on his defensive game, but you are making him sound more awful than he actually is. Inturn you give DeAngelo major props for being a much, much, MUCH lesser version of Shattenkirk.. You also throw Lundqvist onto the fire as a "consistently underachieving vet"... ? Come on. Yes, hes overpaid. Hes certainly not underachieving.

 

On giving up on DeAngelo. Im not the only one. Frikken Arizona threw him into the Stepan deal, as they didn't seem to want him around. The Rangers had no use for him up until the Firesale. Lets be honest. Hes done nothing with his time to showcase his goods. Nothing. Nevermind the defensive disaster he is. If he were racking up the points, I wouldn't care. 31 games 8 assists and minus 3,085. Im no longer a believer.

 

Haven't given up on Shatty, he's a damn excellent PP point man. I really like the person too. Unfortunately at 29 his defensive play is not going to improve, unless the knee made him absolutely horrible this year. But he was a defensive liability last year with the Blues and Caps. His 5 on 5 offense fell off enough to remind me of last year. Given his age and salary/term and all the other younger d liabilities, if he is not all-in on a rebuild we should let him establish some value back and then move on. He has a say in if he wants to go, and where.

 

As for D'Angelo, he is a poorer version of Shatty on O and has to hone his vision, knowledge and poise to be able to make the passes Shatty does on the PP. However, he is already his equal defensively (not saying much) and he is young and inexperienced enough to have plenty of room to grow. Unfortunately, he gets an MRI today and may lose valuable NHL learning time. Hoping this MRI turns out fine.

 

I completely understand that you've given up on him, that he hasn't showed you enough. I see a lot of potential (even though the results are not there) and think he can still imporve with some luck (health) and coaching. You may be right, I'm just not as confident as you that he is a lost cause.

 

Hank, was just joking, except he does fits into the overpaid vet category with a NMC.

 

I honestly don't see any of those free agents getting more than 3-4 years. Kovy you give no more than 2. I want a useful energy player. I think Roussel fits a major need. His style of play and attitude on the ice would be a breathe of fresh air.

 

If we can't add any other forwards, I'd like Roussel on a shorter cheap deal. I wanted him a few years ago. However, he is a pure 4th liner at this point and unlike Grabs or Fast, he can not consistently play up in the lineup and be as effective.

 

I want no part of Jon Moore. None. I'd rather give that money back to Holden. deHaan or Holden. Then deal for a lower lever RFA and start a reclamation project. Unless Winnipeg wants a late 1st rounder and some garbage for Trouba...

 

Not sure why you hate Moore, we'll just agree to disagree. We agree on de Haan, but I'm not interested in Holden, even if he is doing fine in Boston.

 

As for the Jets and Trouba, now you are talking. They have upcoming cap issues and would like cheap assets. It's a longshot, but we have a 1st and 2nd to offer, for starters. Maybe there is another cheap asset or two that would interest them.

[The Dude]

That was not the proposal from Giac either. Tampa's 1st + a little something (ADA/Vesey) for Stone and Ryan. That's not a boatload of picks and prospects, thats 1 pick in a draft we got three 1st and a B-/C Level prospect/Middle 6 winger. Now I dont know if that will be enough for Ottawa, probably not, but its a deal I would do with my eyes closed.

 

"He can dump both contracts on us and we can give him the Boston package of picks and prospects or the Tampa picks."

 

Yeah... It was..

 

Stone was #6 in 16/17 Selke award, he has a much better career +/- (on a worse team over the years) and averages a lot more shorthanded TOI, so your argument about Miller being a more well rounded player is not true.

 

Stone is a legit first line winger, Miller is an inconsistent 2nd line/middle 6 winger.

 

I don't think I meant that Miller is better defensively. More or less a guy that does a few more things. Like being a better skater, being more physical, using his speed to cut to the net, and a better shot. I definitely didn't know about Stone being a selke candidate though. Never noticed his defensive instincts as a big attribute. Just saw him as a guy that can pop in 20 goals, getting good ice time.

 

Perhaps im downplaying his skill level, but i still don't want to add him to the roster.

[The Dude]

'

Dude, this was a possible solution to "needing to ice a team with some vets next year". Our third 1st rounder and Tampa's 2019 pick (if they don't win the cup this year), plus we take on Ryan salary for Stone. Or the same 1st, a third this year and next, Lindgren and Gilmour/O'Gara. That add 2 vets, one a legit 1st line scorer who is 25 and plays a complete game. And we still have most of the picks.

 

It is understandable you underrate Stone, you are not the only one, he's hype free. However, he's logged 62 points in 58 games this year. Plus/minus usually doesn't tell much, but there are no Ottawa regs in the plus except Stone is a +9. For reference, Karlsson is a minus 27. Their coach considers Stone one of the best D forwards on the team and lauds his leadership. He doesn't make mistakes, no stupid penalties, plays all ST.

 

Coincidently, just read an article today suggesting the Av's offer sheet him for 7 x 7+ mil (thinking Melnyk can't match) and giving up their 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Interestingly, they already have Ottawas 1st and 3rd this year. Doubt we get the first unmatched offer sheet since 2007, but it is a good barometer for value.

 

It's not fair to compare Miller to Stone, I didn't. He is not in his league, nor is it relevent. Even if you consider him improving away from AV, he is still a second liner. Stone is a 1st on pretty much any team.

 

You obviously don't like Stone and Ryan for essentially our last first and a Tampas 2nd next year. That's fine, but IMO Ottawa wouldn't make that mistake. I could see Colorado offering better picks, but doubt they want the extra salary in Ryan. And you never know how impulsive the owner gets if he has a team ready to take on Ryan that isn't part of a Karlsson deal. He is soooo cheap.

 

I don't want to give two firsts and prospects for Stone. Id rather lose those pick on an offer sheet to someone younger and imo better. I myself don't consider Stone a 1st liner. Not the 1st liner im looking for anyway.

 

I made the Miller comparison because the guy is a 20 goal man and doesn't seem to make anyone around him better. Nice player. Just not a difference maker. I don't hate him. I just don't want to give him his next contract moving forward in a "rebuild". Marrying yourself to his next deal and having him as your top player for the future isnt much more different than what this team has done the last 5 years with Stepan, Brassard, Zucc, Kreider, Miller and Nash. Bunch of 2nd line talents who are real nice pieces. Just not good enough to tie the reigns to. Almost. But not. You go for Stone and thats your building block with that next contract. Id rather not. Sorry.

[Scott]

If value is not there, we don't do it. However, potential trading partners are teams:

1) in a win now mode

2) pressed up against the cap with RFAs or

3) wanting to add/move pick(s)

 

We need to be opportunistic and a little creative and land some actual NHL players once the off season begins in earnest.

 

 

 

D'Angelo is getting better, you are giving up on him way early. Look at his skills, he manages the puck well, makes precise passes, skates strong with and w/o the puck. He's 21, quick and strong for his size. Who else plays RD next year? OK, you have Shatty (a defensive liability who isn't getting better) cause we can't get value in return. D'Angelo and Hajek are our best D prospects. Pionk is a distant runnerup and pretty questionable. Hajek should start the year in Hartford. Rykov will be playing for SKA. Bigras is a lottery ticket, Day is not here next year, Dunny says never.

 

Lucic is selfish, slow and sucks. League minimum 4th liner. I want no part of any salary dump or any consistently underachieving vet, let alone both. We have Staal, Hank and Shatty to provide those things.

 

Only reason to take Ryan is because it could be the only way to acquire Mark Stone (+10, PPG on the worst team in the league) at a reasonable cost. Otherwise, fuck Ryan. Stone (25) will command a huge contract which Melnyck will be loathe to pay. He can dump both contracts on us and we can give him the Boston package of picks and prospects or the Tampa picks.

 

 

 

* JVR is great in front of the net, but will be 29 and probably gets 6 X 6. No

* Hornqvist will be 32 in Jan and sure to get over 5 mil for too many years. No.

* Roussel I like as a 4th liner, but would rather Grabner for 3 years at the slightly higher price.

* Nash for 3 years would be nice, if he doesn't win the cup. Boston already loves him though.

* Can we do Kovy for 1 year? More scares me. Year to year gentleman's agreement. Prefer Nash or Grabs.

 

* We bargain shop and get de Haan, who recovers 100% and doesn't miss a beat.

 

* Been watching Jon Moore and he continues to play well, facing opponents top lines. He can skate the puck with authority and passes well. He'll generate interest and cost more than de Haan, but his value to $ could be reasonable. We have a spot for him om the 2nd pair. Wouldn't be surprised if the Devils try to keep him and the Isles the same with de Haan.

 

 

That's exactly the type of thinking mgmt needs. :thumbs: Not so much the offer sheet, cause the comp would be huge, but the Jets will be up against it. They have ridiculous upcoming contracts to Laine, Connor, Morrissey, Trouba, among others. It appears they'll have to move someone, Trouba the likely candidate. Minny too. Ottawa, just cause they are cheap and sellers. Though, Stone is the only real target there.

 

 

 

Besides Chytil and Lias, I wouldn't expect any to be ready except D'Angelo. So scout his every shift the rest of this season. Pionk can be our longshot. Maybe Lettieri or Nieves can push for a 4th line spot. Hajek could make a push sometime next year. Bring him up if ready and we are competing.

 

Moore is a second pair guy on the Devils behind Greene and Vatanen. There's nights he handles the puck like a grenade in his own end and while he has some offensive skills more often than not he's going to get knocked off the puck and not win too many bboard battles. He's allergic to the blue paint on defense.

[Giacomin]

Moore is a second pair guy on the Devils behind Greene and Vatanen. There's nights he handles the puck like a grenade in his own end and while he has some offensive skills more often than not he's going to get knocked off the puck and not win too many bboard battles. He's allergic to the blue paint on defense.

 

He's been getting 20 minutes a night. Skates well, moves with authority with the puck and competent defensively. I miss plenty of Devil games, maybe he's been inconsistent? The other night against Nashville he was playing the final important minutes.

 

Just lookin to bargain shop a fairly young FA dman. Maybe de Haan is the best option.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I don't want to give two firsts and prospects for Stone. Id rather lose those pick on an offer sheet to someone younger and imo better. I myself don't consider Stone a 1st liner. Not the 1st liner im looking for anyway.

 

I made the Miller comparison because the guy is a 20 goal man and doesn't seem to make anyone around him better. Nice player. Just not a difference maker. I don't hate him. I just don't want to give him his next contract moving forward in a "rebuild". Marrying yourself to his next deal and having him as your top player for the future isnt much more different than what this team has done the last 5 years with Stepan, Brassard, Zucc, Kreider, Miller and Nash. Bunch of 2nd line talents who are real nice pieces. Just not good enough to tie the reigns to. Almost. But not. You go for Stone and thats your building block with that next contract. Id rather not. Sorry.

 

I cant understand how you don't see a ppg, selke candidate, 25 y/o winger as a 1st liner.

 

I get your point, and not wanting to tie up 7x7m on a player like Stone is fine, but he IS a legit 1st line winger on any team and he would be our best player if we got him. I think you're underrating him a lot(just like everyone else, not much hype about him).

 

And look at that, I bash Miller for 2 seconds and he scores a hattrick. That trade will bite us in the ass when we draft some nobodies and Howden/Hajek becomes middle 6 and bottom pair guys.

[Scott]

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Kovalchuk was on Russian TV today saying he is definitely back in the NHL next season. Wants the Stanley Cup.

 

12:25 PM - 16 Mar 2018

 

 

No shot he comes here IF this is true which is fine with me.

[josh]

Trade him at the deadline.

 

Perfect situation for both the team and the player.

[The Dude]

I cant understand how you don't see a ppg, selke candidate, 25 y/o winger as a 1st liner.

 

I get your point, and not wanting to tie up 7x7m on a player like Stone is fine, but he IS a legit 1st line winger on any team and he would be our best player if we got him. I think you're underrating him a lot(just like everyone else, not much hype about him).

 

And look at that, I bash Miller for 2 seconds and he scores a hattrick. That trade will bite us in the ass when we draft some nobodies and Howden/Hajek becomes middle 6 and bottom pair guys.

 

His rookie year was his best goal output. He should top that 26 goal mark. I guess im underrating him. Thought his goal totals were lower. Don't know why i thought he never topped 20,

[Fatfrancesa]

Stone has a long concussion history doesn’t he?