Dave

Grand Northern Conspiracy is true, IMO. The more I've read the recent articles/blogs detailing the evidence, the more I'm convinced Rickon's return is entirely staged by SmallJon Umber and the North who are going to attempt to restore a Stark to the Northern houses. If that's Sansa or Jon, I'm not sure, because R+L=J is probably also true... so how "Stark" is he, really?

If they used Rickon as a prop in this, that's pretty cold blooded. They're basically saying, "hey, if the Stark kid gets skinned, that's OK so long as it leads to our ends".

 

He has had great lines and funny comments since the first book/episode. I see what your concern is now that the show is new territory so to say but I doubt it becomes an issue. That "that's what I do.. Know things and drink wine" line was great lol

He's comic relief while being the smartest guy in the room. I think he's a very well drawn character. One of the best on the show.

Yes the Karstarks, but only until they notice he doesn't have any men except them, then they can act alone anyway. :D

Or so it would be, if he wasn't a comic book villain who will have men, cause he wouldn't be much of a villain without them.

 

It's the same question that doomed Stannis: Who will follow a man who murders his own kin? An unpredictable madman too, who loves to torture and hunt down people for fun.

Maybe we can argue that Karstark brought enough men to keep the Bolton men from revolting and derserting for now.

Who will follow a man who murders his own kin, an unpredictable madman who love to torture and hunt down people for fun? Plenty of people throughout human history. That's the nature of tyrannical dictators. Ruling through fear. Yes, sometimes they are disposed from within and sometimes from without. You're also talking about a people who's entire culture is grounded in the skinning of their enemies.

They were spirited away by the "we can't have someone kill dogs on this show" magic. Remember the outrage in season 1, when Ned had to kill Sansas direwolf?

Eh, they killed Rob's direwolf in Season 3.

Premier was kind of soft, even though quite a bit happened. I think maybe that was a combination of pacing and expectations. The episode kept setting up and knocking down the right pins.

Some were expected (spoiler even though it aired, since many DVR here):

Others probably not:

So there you have an episode that didn't begin until 9:10 PM EST, covered most of the remaining story archs a couple times each, and only hit a couple of surprises, one not till the absolute end. All felt very neat and orderly.

Nice moments are clear death flags, just like saying "we talk about it, when I am back".

Or, "I'm so excited for my wedding!"

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview

This is my understanding of it. I had a sit-down with Dan and David, we did the Tony Soprano walk [letting an actor know they?re being whacked]. And they said, ?Look, you?re gone, it?s done.? And as far as the salary thing goes, that angered me when that story came out. I don?t know where it came from, but it was inaccurate in many ways. It?s going to put questions into your head and into fans? heads that things are not what they are. Quite honestly, I have never been told the future of things in this show, but this is the one time I have. They sat me down and said, ?This is how it is.? If anything in the future is not like that, then I don?t know about it ? it?s only in David and Dan and George?s heads. But I?ve been told I?m dead. I?m dead. I?m not coming back next

He parses his words so carefully that it's almost the same red herring that was used to lure him out. I'm going to break it down:

This is my understanding of it.

Not, this is how it is. Just "his understanding".

And as far as the salary thing goes, that angered me when that story came out. I don?t know where it came from, but it was inaccurate in many ways.

Inaccurate in many ways, but not specifically with his salary for season 6 and beyond. A clear cut answer would have been, "I don't have a contract for season 6.".

It?s going to put questions into your head and into fans? heads that things are not what they are.

Things on GOT are seldom what they really are and we always have questions like this.

I have never been told the future of things in this show, but this is the one time I have.

So suddenly the show runners are going to break tradition and tell him this even when the episode showed something with his character that could be a cliff hanger? Then they were also going to have him do a pre-interview with EW that would come out just minutes after the episode's conclusion to confirm his character's death on a show that BENEFITS FROM AUDIENCE SPECULATION BOTH WAYS ON THESE EXACT TYPES OF SITUATIONS?

If anything in the future is not like that, then I don?t know about it

That I'll buy. Is the John Snow character as we know him dead? Sure. I can see that. Has Kit been filled in on his acting future with GOT? Probably not. Probably the writing isn't finished yet.

But I?ve been told I?m dead. I?m dead. I?m not coming back next season.

And the entire problem with this "interview". Is Kit talking as Kit or is Kit talking as John Snow? Obviously, there is a huge difference.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/07/game-thrones-Shireen?hootPostID=03f23460a3539788115ca1d252f897db

This completely misses the boat on why the Shireen thing was so horrible. It isn't simply the fan's fondness for her character although of course that comes into play, but it's a father and mother (at first) willingly burning their child alive in order to further their own goals. So to use the dog getting hit by a car analogy, this would be the difference between seeing some random dog getting hit by a car verses seeing someone run over their own dog intentionally.

 

Like, why the hell is Tyrion of all people chained to a wall and not Jorah?

Why can Jorah just walk out and join the fighting?

Where did that saw come from for Tyrion to saw his chains and why the fuck does that big guy cut him loose?

 

Who the hell had the Idea of the badly contructed scene with Sam and Gilly ending up having Sex? Why the hell is Ghost still at Castle Black to save the day Lupus ex machina.

 

Not to mention that dumb scene with the Sand Snakes and Bronn. So the poison needed her to make him horny to work? And of course she still has the antidote...

 

I even debate that sending Jon is a stupid idea, cause he leaves all his enemies behind, but at least that could be explained with him doing something stupid.

 

Pressing 10 Plotlines into one episode didn't help either.

In the end, about the only parts I liked involved Cersei.

Tyrion was chained because he wasn't there to fight. Same reason Jorah wasn't. He had to get armor on and clean and prepare his weapons. Presumably there was no way to escape except into the fighting pit. Tyrion had a file it looked like to me. Probably to sharpen weapons. I don't know why that guy freed him other than they needed a quick way to advance the story line.

Agree about the sex scene with Sam. The scene works without it. John going north is in the books. One of the few things they are sticking to.

Not sure where the Sand Snakes stuff is going. Whether it's worthwhile or not remains to be seen.

The Ramsey, Reek, Sansa stuff was good. So was the Stanis army scene as far as advancing that story line. And where they are going with Kings Landing works for me.

It was a disappointing episode because it was a transition one. Moving pieces on the board. With the number of story lines, it takes almost twice as long to setup conflicts across the entire series. They should try to better balance it even as these types of episodes are sometimes necessary.

Okay damn this is why hes the master. I definitely like this version a lot more.

 

Although you bring up a good point.. if ever there was a good time for the white walkers to make an appearance below the wall, it would be now. 2 books left I am starting to wonder how they will ever fit in at all in the story.

I think you'd need to work in some teleportation for the White Walkers though. And wouldn't that be an absolute bitch for John Snow if he went through all he goes through at the Wall, only for the White Walkers to beat him with science and be all like, John Snow you know nothing. Later bastard!

If they are still showing them I am assuming they will still play some sort of a part in the story. At least Brienne. For all we know Bronn could very well be dead if he was in fact poisoned. I think we will find out in the next episode or two for sure with Stannis and Littlefinger both "attacking" Winterfell. My guess is she saves Sansa and helps her some how rule Winterfell? I dunno haha

How about this. Stannis and Littlefinger retake Winterfell. Littlefinger makes his move, asking Sansa to marry him. She says no and tells him that she's know he was trying to use her as his pawn for a while. Stanis backs her because it's the righteous thing to do, says something about her brother, John Snow helping him back at the Wall. And of course, the Vale would support her as the rightful heir of Winterfell, especially if she lets it out that Littlefinger pushed Lysa through the skydoor. Brienne stays on as Sansas' protector and Sansa makes Podrick a Knight.

Bronn has no purpose any longer. If he was poisoned, it's fine. If he dies, it's fine. It would just be part of the story right now with him helping Jamie but dying in the process.

Bronn has no purpose to the story anymore at this point, although he could in the future one supposes. At the same time, he does have tremendous value from an audience stand point. He's a character you can really get behind and he's been acted phenomenally well. I would imagine his death would be near the top of fan favorites getting the ax to this point. Less shocking than Rob or Ned, but I don't think either of those two had the audience connection that Bronn does.

Well, we don't really know what happened. What I'm saying is the implication is he raped his own wife at the bedding ceremony, regardless of the fact that it's known that virgins lose their virginity when they're wed in Westeros.

 

The manner in which he took her implied rape, even if the visuals of the scene we did see aren't explicitly proving it.

 

I think Sansa simply accepted that there was nothing she could do about it, so fighting, screaming no, etc. would do nothing to help her. She simply had to—for lack of a better term—grin and bear it. It's still "technically" rape. She certainly didn't want to have sex with him, and assuredly not in that manner.

Then that's her own stupidity. She knows that this kid's father double crossed her family, helping kill her mother, brother and sister-in-law. Did she think that the wedding wouldn't get consummated? Or that maybe she'd have the romance she's always dreamed of? No. She made a calculated risk and this is the price. We'll see if it pays off in the end.

This is the "Old woman and the snake" otherwise.

I'm still not sure how I feel about it in a production sense. It seems gratuitous to me, but because of how they are playing this out in the show vs. the books, I guess it was necessary. It was still pretty uncomfortable to watch compared to every other gory/sexually violent scene the show has produced, despite the fact that nothing was actually shown. The implication was enough.

 

I have to agree with Drew though, the scene was much more about Theon than it was Sansa. The expectation was there for her that she'd need to consummate the marriage.

 

Final thought on the episode, during the battle/mild skirmish/slapbox between the Sand Snakes and Jaime/Bronn, who got cut on the arm, and were they poisoned? Being that only one person was perceivably injured during the fight, it was noticeable to me that one of the two were cut by a weapon from one of the Sand Snakes. Being daughters of Oberyn, I assume poison.

Nice catch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm8FQKS4EnM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm8FQKS4EnM

1:55 in. Appears it was Bronn, right before the fight is stopped. And I can't help but agree with you. Having that be the only damage anyone faces, having it seem so mild considering and it happening a split second before the fight is stopped seems too coincidental.

Yea, I would consider that rape. But that's what was expected of her one way or another.

 

With Stannis arriving, and Littlefinger on his way, the situation in the north is shaping up to be one of the more interesting things going on right now.

 

I think eventually Theon and Sansa team up to help take the Boltons down. But I am not sure how Stannis and Littlefinger will fit in with that.

But why? Is it just because Ramsey is a despicable character while Sansa isn't? Not enough for me. And if it was, did he also rape the girl who's been playing games with Sansa? And if so, where was the outrage?

I think this is just a case of a character people don't like being judged because of their interaction with a character people do.

I dunno dude, that's still rape to me. He "forcibly" takes her. It's kind of implied by him ripping her dress and throwing over over the bed.

Not all rough sex is rape. Was it inconsiderate? Sure, given that he knew it was Sansa's first time. But consummation of the wedding was expected, surely Sansa knew that it was at least a likely possibility when she agreed to marry Ramsey. So them having sex, given that she did not decline, in and of it self isn't rape. Or do you think someone has to explicitly verbalize consent not just to the act but also to the style of the act?

Why is this being called rape? Sansa agreed to marry him, Littlefinger had given her the option to not go to Winterfell at all. She had to know there would be a bedding after the marriage. The sex might have been a little rough, a little kinky with Reek watching and certainly not what Sansa probably envisioned her first time, but she never says no, never asks or indicates he should stop, doesn't try to resist at all. He doesn't over power her. The closest to a threat was when he asks, connected to telling her to get undressed, "Do I need to ask a second time? I hate having to ask a second time."

If anything, Reek got raped in this scene, not Sansa. Maybe not in a traditional sense, he was threatened into participating into a sexual situation.

Wedding through the end. Jump to around 3:00 if you want to just see the lead up to the consummation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BXMPInWum8

Still too many story lines, but at least each that got covered advanced significantly. It's also pretty refreshing to have it stray so far from the books. Now book readers can join those who haven't in not really knowing what will come next in a lot of the story lines. And even the ones more true to the books, you never know when something will suddenly stray. I think that's what having Barristan Selmy die did. Makes you realize that either the books have been abandoned for a different version of the overall story or those who ultimately won't be completely vital for the story are now fair game.

The Sansa story line for example, I was expecting maybe Reek to kill Ramsey or else for war horns to blare as Stannis attacked to save her maidenhood. Neither happened, but it was good to have the possibility from a book reader's standpoint.

Thoughts on last nights episode?

 

 

As a reader of the books it's exciting to see all this stuff that hasn't been published yet. Thought the Tyrian/mormont story is getting good and love everything that is happening with the war over the north. But I am starting to get bored with danearys' story a little.

They are running into the problem created by the vastness of the books. Even with characters stories combined and some eliminated completely, too many different story lines makes it very difficult to advance each sufficiently for me. I think that's what is happening with Dany's line right now. They're even leaving off story lines from episodes because there is just no room. That last episode ignored King's Landing, Jamie/Bronn and Aryia completely, I believe. And it still felt thin.

Not sure what the solution is either. It's just a massive amount of movement necessary for each line given the 1 hour they have each week and a 10 episode season.

Agreed. That was actually the most interesting part of the night — the entire Lyanna history lesson scene.

 

And they are definitely miles from where the books are and haven't even finished this season yet. I'd imagine by the end they're going to emphatically separate themselves where there are only really a few loose tie-backs to the books (like Bran).

Yes, and then HBO will be free to finish things up in the few seasons they have left, and RR can continue on his pace, resolving the books possibly in a completely different fashion sometime in 2118.