Kreider Surpasses Messier for 7th Most Goals in Rangers Franchise History

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kreider should be a career Ranger. Good contract value and has always performed consistently year in and year out. We can talk about in-year consistency in the distant past, but that is no longer valid. 50 goals last year, pacing 35 this year. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if he’s a 40 goal scorer more than once through the rest of his contract. His underlying analytics have been excellent for years. Only two years in his career has he been below a 52 xGF%. Only one year has he been below a 52 GF%. Absolute production machine his whole career. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

And yet with all of that, there was still more there that he never tapped into.

 

He's a guy who just always leaves you wanting more. Like if he actually tried, he'd be a 50 goal scorer every year. He just disappears for long stretches way too often. 

 

And he shouldn't be a career Ranger if keeping him cost you anyone under the age of 25, especially Lindgren. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

And yet with all of that, there was still more there that he never tapped into.

 

He's a guy who just always leaves you wanting more. Like if he actually tried, he'd be a 50 goal scorer every year. He just disappears for long stretches way too often. 

 

And he shouldn't be a career Ranger if keeping him cost you anyone under the age of 25, especially Lindgren. 

Compile a list of the contracts that could be moved for significant cap space, and Kreider will be the only one that can be classified as underpaid. Getting rid of good value contracts is not a good way to run a franchise in a capped sport. The idea is to have more of those, not less.

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Compile a list of the contracts that could be moved for significant cap space, and Kreider will be the only one that can be classified as underpaid. Getting rid of good value contracts is not a good way to run a franchise in a capped sport. The idea is to have more of those, not less.

I guess you can make that general statement if you wanted to, but every team is in their own situation. You could have all the good value contracts in the world, and if they all play the same position it doesn't make a difference, you have to move one of them. 

 

Rangers have a plethora of left wings waiting to slot up. It's painfully clear nobody is moving to right wing.

 

I think next year will probably be his last season as a Ranger barring anything unforeseen. I suspect we'll see Othmann in AHL, move to L4 at some point during the season, and the year after CK will be gone, Alf will take a more prominent role, Othmann to 3LW Cullye to L4. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kreider should be a career Ranger. Good contract value and has always performed consistently year in and year out. We can talk about in-year consistency in the distant past, but that is no longer valid. 50 goals last year, pacing 35 this year. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if he’s a 40 goal scorer more than once through the rest of his contract. His underlying analytics have been excellent for years. Only two years in his career has he been below a 52 xGF%. Only one year has he been below a 52 GF%. Absolute production machine his whole career. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

I think the Rangers luck on getting high picks is likely to deprive Kreider of the opportunity to be a career Ranger.

 

Kakko and Lafreniere are going to make him a financial albatross at some point.  If we're lucky that point is not next season.

[RichieNextel305]

59 minutes ago, Pete said:

It was never part of Graves' game unless liberties were taken with teammates. 

 

I actually think CK is a more polished player than Graves was. Better hands around the net, more speed, better skater, but where CK wins on skill, Graves is miles ahead on will. 

 

CK was a pretty emotional leader last year, this year feels very sterile. I just can't get behind a guy who's level of care seems so low. Regardless of what's going on in his head, it's certainly not reflective on the ice. 

Gonna touch on the middle paragraph, because I think that’s key too. The game has evolved a lot over the last little while. Back in Graves day, it was almost like a badge of honor to be a net front presence and score goals that way. It’s the same principle, sure. Stand there, let a puck hit you in the ass, the face, the head (obviously over exaggerating a bit) and have it ricochet into the net. I feel that now, while the principle is still true, it is a bit of an art. You see guys all the time practicing and mastering the art of deflecting shots. Kreider is probably one of the better guys at doing that in the league today.

 

And overall, yeah. But it just shows that the two are different players. While the stats may line up and the roles may line up, what you’re saying is accurate and I don’t think many people would debate you on it. Graves was more of a will power, take it on the chin, blood and guts type player. Kreider is someone that while his game is mainly net front, he can beat you offensively in more ways than Graves could have, given his shot and speed.

[Br4d]

57 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Compile a list of the contracts that could be moved for significant cap space, and Kreider will be the only one that can be classified as underpaid. Getting rid of good value contracts is not a good way to run a franchise in a capped sport. The idea is to have more of those, not less.

 

You could make a pretty good argument that Zibanejad, Lindgren and Shesterkin are similarly underpaid as Kreider.

 

Something has to give as the young guys start to get paid.  We've got a handful of young stars-in-waiting headed to their second deal.  The natural order is that some of the mid-career vets will have to go to make that happen under the cap.  Kreider is the poster-boy in this category.

[BrooksBurner]

47 minutes ago, Pete said:

I guess you can make that general statement if you wanted to, but every team is in their own situation. You could have all the good value contracts in the world, and if they all play the same position it doesn't make a difference, you have to move one of them. 

 

Rangers have a plethora of left wings waiting to slot up. It's painfully clear nobody is moving to right wing.

 

I think next year will probably be his last season as a Ranger barring anything unforeseen. I suspect we'll see Othmann in AHL, move to L4 at some point during the season, and the year after CK will be gone, Alf will take a more prominent role, Othmann to 3LW Cullye to L4. 

 

I like Othmann as a prospect, but the Rangers should not trade Kreider just to get a rookie question mark in on the 3rd line playing 10-12 sheltered minutes a night. Othmann actually began his OHL career as a right wing (https://www.rawcharge.com/2020/4/16/21217175/21-days-of-2021-nhl-draft-prospects-7-brennan-othmann), and the best path forward for him here is on the right whether Kreider is traded or not. Top 6 LW will be blocked for quite a long time yet, unless Lafreniere goes belly up. And if Lafreniere goes belly up, you'll wish you kept Kreider...so. Keep Kreider.

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I like Othmann as a prospect, but the Rangers should not trade Kreider just to get a rookie question mark in on the 3rd line playing 10-12 sheltered minutes a night. Othmann actually began his OHL career as a right wing (https://www.rawcharge.com/2020/4/16/21217175/21-days-of-2021-nhl-draft-prospects-7-brennan-othmann), and the best path forward for him here is on the right whether Kreider is traded or not. Top 6 LW will be blocked for quite a long time yet, unless Lafreniere goes belly up. And if Lafreniere goes belly up, you'll wish you kept Kreider...so. Keep Kreider.

I don't care where he started. I care where he is now. And that's LW.

 

And by the time any of this happens there would be no concern over Laf. You'll know what he is. Maybe he's traded instead.

 

But this fantasy of guys switching sides isn't happening. Or it would have already. 

 

I can already see the headlines around a rookie who tore up junior on LW being asked to move to RW as an NHLer. What could go wrong? 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

16 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

You could make a pretty good argument that Zibanejad, Lindgren and Shesterkin are similarly underpaid as Kreider.

 

Something has to give as the young guys start to get paid.  We've got a handful of young stars-in-waiting headed to their second deal.  The natural order is that some of the mid-career vets will have to go to make that happen under the cap.  Kreider is the poster-boy in this category.

 

Yes, but Kreider isn't how you do it.

 

 

[Br4d]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Yes, but Kreider isn't how you do it.

 

 

 

So who do you trade to make the difference?

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I don't care where he started. I care where he is now. And that's LW.

 

And by the time any of this happens there would be no concern over Laf. You'll know what he is. Maybe he's traded instead.

 

But this fantasy of guys switching sides isn't happening. Or it would have already. 

 

You're putting too much emphasis on Othmann panning out. He'd be lucky to have half the career of Kreider. So while we can play this theoretical game, yours is based on hope, which isn't a great strategy is it?

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Br4d said:

 

So who do you trade to make the difference?

 

Depends how much cap is needed, but I would shed multiple contracts before Kreider's $6.5M bargain cap hit.

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

You're putting too much emphasis on Othmann panning out. He'd be lucky to have half the career of Kreider. So while we can play this theoretical game, yours is based on hope, which isn't a great strategy is it?

I'm making room for a young player to not be blocked and have a stunted development because we're hanging on to history and a 34/5 year old player. Or have you not been paying attention to what's been going on with our top draft picks over the past 3 years? 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'm making room for a young player to not be blocked and have a stunted development because we're hanging on to history and a 34/5 year old player. Or have you not been paying attention to what's been going on with our top draft picks over the past 3 years? 

 

On the contrary, it would seem you haven't been paying attention to what's going on. You want to do the same to Othmann, with what's been done to Lafreniere for the last 3 seasons (top 6 LW and TOI blockage). He's better off spending a couple of years in Hartford getting 20 a night playing all situations. He's only 20 y.o. There's nothing wrong with waiting until he's 22 to get him up here.

 

For clarity, Kreider will have just turned 33 at end of next season, with multiple good seasons still left in his career. If the cap goes up $3-4M during the Summer of 2024, cap issues are a fake-ish problem anyway.

[Ozzy]

Kreider's assets include:  Speed, good hands in front of the net, and a good shot.

 

At age 33 after next season, I feel he's going to be on the back 9 of his career.  He takes weeks off at a time now.  I can only imagine what it's going to be like at age 34-35.  Make room for Othmann in my book.  Culleye too.

 

I get Kreider's contract is a good value, but after age 33, I say it's all downhill from there.  If we can get some value back in a trade for him, I'd be all in. 

 

I think Kredier's biggest asset after next season is the $6.5 million off the books to spend on the kids coming up the ladder now!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ozzy

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Depends how much cap is needed, but I would shed multiple contracts before Kreider's $6.5M bargain cap hit.

 

Again, which contracts?

 

Trouba?

Lindgren?

Miller's next deal?

Lafreniere's next deal?

Kakko's next deal?

Chytil's next deal?

Shesterkin?

Zibanejad?

Panarin?

 

The Ranger's cap doesn't have a lot of movement potential at the moment.  Barclay Goodrow is an obvious cap casualty at some point because he's a 4th-liner making $3.6M.  After that things get really dicey.  Making Trouba the Captain had an effect on the Ranger's ability to move on from him if they keep playing well under his stewardship.

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Again, which contracts?

 

Trouba?

Lindgren?

Miller's next deal?

Lafreniere's next deal?

Kakko's next deal?

Chytil's next deal?

Shesterkin?

Zibanejad?

Panarin?

 

The Ranger's cap doesn't have a lot of movement potential at the moment.  Barclay Goodrow is an obvious cap casualty at some point because he's a 4th-liner making $3.6M.  After that things get really dicey.  Making Trouba the Captain had an effect on the Ranger's ability to move on from him if they keep playing well under his stewardship.

 

Goodrow's $3.6M is at the top of the list for some cap relief, and it's not even close. He's a 30-35 point player in his prime here. He was brought here for experience, which will no longer be needed here. Totally replaceable.

 

All this discussion about Kreider is really that there's been a faction of fans who disliked him for a while and they had to shut up last year while he potted 50. Now that he's pacing only 35 goals, he can be sent to the junkyard for a 21 y.o. rookie to get his feet wet on a team that will still be Cup contenders.

 

 

[Br4d]

13 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Goodrow's $3.6M is at the top of the list for some cap relief, and it's not even close. He's a 30-35 point player in his prime here. He was brought here for experience, which will no longer be needed here. Totally replaceable.

 

All this discussion about Kreider is really that there's been a faction of fans who disliked him for a while and they had to shut up last year while he potted 50. Now that he's pacing only 35 goals, he can be sent to the junkyard for a 21 y.o. rookie to get his feet wet on a team that will still be Cup contenders.

 

 

 

Just speaking for myself.  I don't dislike Kreider at all.  In fact I like many of the things that he brings to the ice.

 

That said, it is the natural order of things for veteran players to give way to younger players as the vets production declines and the younger players production increases.

 

If Lafreniere had Kreider's power play time last year they'd both have probably scored 25-35 goals.  As it was Lafreniere was second to Kreider in EVS goals last year.  It's logical to project Lafreniere taking Kreider's cap slot moving forward.  That's what makes the cap work for the Rangers even though they have to pay several young players sharply rising contracts if their trajectory continues upwards as they approach RFA and UFA.

[BrooksBurner]

15 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Just speaking for myself.  I don't dislike Kreider at all.  In fact I like many of the things that he brings to the ice.

 

That said, it is the natural order of things for veteran players to give way to younger players as the vets production declines and the younger players production increases.

 

If Lafreniere had Kreider's power play time last year they'd both have probably scored 25-35 goals.  As it was Lafreniere was second to Kreider in EVS goals last year.  It's logical to project Lafreniere taking Kreider's cap slot moving forward.  That's what makes the cap work for the Rangers even though they have to pay several young players sharply rising contracts if their trajectory continues upwards as they approach RFA and UFA.

Kreider’s production has only increased, so he doesn’t fall under that bucket, and I don’t see his production falling by next year.
 

It’s just a backwards argument to me to say we need cap space, and then follow that up by trading one of the best value contracts on the team. And the core argument behind it is Othmann needs a spot on the 3rd line.

 

Lafreniere is not in the same stratosphere as Kreider. Not playing what ifs.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

On the contrary, it would seem you haven't been paying attention to what's going on. You want to do the same to Othmann, with what's been done to Lafreniere for the last 3 seasons (top 6 LW and TOI blockage). He's better off spending a couple of years in Hartford getting 20 a night playing all situations. He's only 20 y.o. There's nothing wrong with waiting until he's 22 to get him up here.

 

For clarity, Kreider will have just turned 33 at end of next season, with multiple good seasons still left in his career. If the cap goes up $3-4M during the Summer of 2024, cap issues are a fake-ish problem anyway.

Incorrect. I want to bring him along slowly. Kreider out, Othmann to 3LW, in the next few season Panarin gone too. He'd be a top 6 LW by the time he's 23.

 

Why would you throw a player fresh out of the AHL into a top role when you can break him in with 40GP on the 4th line with some spot moves up the lineup, then a year on the 3rd line, then a top 6 role?

[Scott]

29 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kreider’s production has only increased, so he doesn’t fall under that bucket, and I don’t see his production falling by next year.
 

It’s just a backwards argument to me to say we need cap space, and then follow that up by trading one of the best value contracts on the team. And the core argument behind it is Othmann needs a spot on the 3rd line.

 

Lafreniere is not in the same stratosphere as Kreider. Not playing what ifs.

Combined Lafreniere and Kakko are on pace to score under 30 goals combined over 82 games this season. This season.  That's real progress.

[Pete]

53 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

And the core argument behind it is Othmann needs a spot on the 3rd line.

 

It's that Othmann needs a spot on the team.