GDT [RS] (#32) Rangers at Tampa Bay Lightning — New Year's Bash

[Keirik]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sorry but when half the league makes the playoffs, and right now you have not really shown that you can beat playoff teams, that makes you average.

 

When they show they can consistently beat playoff teams then we can assess. Right now the record is clear. They're beating up on bad teams and teams with covid issues. They have not beaten many good teams, and not that it really matters because nobody expects them to get to the finals, but they have not beaten any powerhouse Western teams.

Of course. Right now their record is very clear.. 688 winning %. 

That's a good team, no matter who they beat. The teams they are losing to are up favorites. Those are great teams. Average is. 500 

  Rangers are from from average. They are besting average teams. 

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:03 PM, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Gotta be one of the worst Tampa Bay lineups in years and they just got destroyed  9-3 against Florida. This should be a win.

Barely won... game tying goal at the end due to lack of the following; where is the 60 min. effort?  Physicality throughout is lacking, immho.

[Pete]

48 minutes ago, Keirik said:

That's a good team, no matter who they beat.

Not true and that's the entire point, but I've made it and it stands, so I'm not gonna keep going. 

[Go Blue]

Anybody notice how aggressive Shesty was during the shoot out?

 

looked liked he started 10’ out of the goal

[Sod16]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

The Rangers have 20 wins and 12 losses, not talking SO or OT.

 

Of their 20 wins, 16 have come against teams outside the playoffs right now.

Of their 12 losses, 9 were against playoff teams.

 

That, to me, is average. They beat the bad teams and lose to the good ones. They just happen to have played more bad teams than good teams. (20 games against teams out of the playoffs and 12 against teams in the playoffs as of today).

 

 

If you want to judge where a team is at, without the fog of skills competitions and loser points, look at the regulation record.  There is no 3 on 3 or Shootout in the playoffs, so whatever they do to the record is irrelevant.  We are 17-8-7 in regulation, which is pretty damn good.  In reality, that record is tempered a bit by a schedule that has emphasized weaker teams, a goal differential that is not as good as the record, and and over dependence on a goalie who is going to be a Vezina nominee.  It comes down to where most everyone agrees we are: playoff team, not a major contender.  Of course, many playoff teams who are not considered contenders go on playoff runs.  They usually peter out in the finals or conference finals.

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Not true and that's the entire point, but I've made it and it stands, so I'm not gonna keep going. 

Incorrect.  We are all allowed our opinions but I just don’t agree that a team with nearly a 70% winning percentage is average. That’s nuts to me. They’re record is a bit misleading but average? Average are the teams hovering at the .500 mark. You can only play the teams on your schedule when you play them.  Seems to me you are confusing good and elite. No one is saying they are elite. Average is a huge stretch though. 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Go Blue said:

Anybody notice how aggressive Shesty was during the shoot out?

 

looked liked he started 10’ out of the goal

I though he was rather NON aggressive and didn't seem to be ready as skaters came in. Kinda just standing straight up and not really set, or at any reasonable angle.. Especially the first attempt. 

 

He did really well though, so, if that works for him...

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Incorrect.  We are all allowed our opinions but I just don’t agree that a team with nearly a 70% winning percentage is average. That’s nuts to me. They’re record is a bit misleading but average? Average are the teams hovering at the .500 mark. You can only play the teams on your schedule when you play them.  Seems to me you are confusing good and elite. No one is saying they are elite. Average is a huge stretch though. 

When you say it doesn't matter who they played, by that logic a game against Montreal and a game against Vegas hold the same weight. They don't and we all know this.

 

They are relying on Vezina caliber goaltending and a favorable schedule. 

 

Unless they make some changes, it will all even out in the wash. They'll make the playoffs due to banked points, but I'd would not expect this team to make much noise. 

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, Sod16 said:

If you want to judge where a team is at, without the fog of skills competitions and loser points, look at the regulation record.  There is no 3 on 3 or Shootout in the playoffs, so whatever they do to the record is irrelevant.  We are 17-8-7 in regulation, which is pretty damn good.  In reality, that record is tempered a bit by a schedule that has emphasized weaker teams, a goal differential that is not as good as the record, and and over dependence on a goalie who is going to be a Vezina nominee.  It comes down to where most everyone agrees we are: playoff team, not a major contender.  Of course, many playoff teams who are not considered contenders go on playoff runs.  They usually peter out in the finals or conference finals.

Sorry but you can't just pull out the performances in games that end in shootouts or OT and act like those games don't exist when looking at record. 

[Keirik]

32 minutes ago, Pete said:

When you say it doesn't matter who they played, by that logic a game against Montreal and a game against Vegas hold the same weight. They don't and we all know this.

 

They are relying on Vezina caliber goaltending and a favorable schedule. 

 

Unless they make some changes, it will all even out in the wash. They'll make the playoffs due to banked points, but I'd would not expect this team to make much noise. 

Few things. 
   Many good teams rely on some of their best players to be where they are. Elite teams have more complete teams. I don’t think anyone disagrees that we aren’t a deep playoff team right now. A 70% win percentage for the year would make them elite. I doubt they keep up that pace so that makes them a good team in my opinion. 
 

  Like I said, I guess we just have different definitions of average. To me, an average team doesn’t consistently beat up on other average teams. If they did, they’d be a good team.  They are a .688% right now. It’ll go down as the year goes on and they’ll end up around .575-.615 or so in the good team zone. 

 

 

[Bugg]

MSG trivia lies. Jean Ratelle did in fact have a hat trick on New Year's Eve   https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/ratelje01.html

[Keirik]

Just now, Bugg said:

MSG trivia lies. Jean Ratelle did in fact have a hat trick on New Year's Eve   https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/ratelje01.html

They were wrong a few weeks ago too when they said last player with a 7 game goal streak. It was Zibanejad. 

[josh]

44 minutes ago, Bugg said:

MSG trivia lies. Jean Ratelle did in fact have a hat trick on New Year's Eve   https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/ratelje01.html

"Excuse me, that was Jean Ratelle with a hattrick" 

[josh]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Few things. 
   Many good teams rely on some of their best players to be where they are. Elite teams have more complete teams. I don’t think anyone disagrees that we aren’t a deep playoff team right now. A 70% win percentage for the year would make them elite. I doubt they keep up that pace so that makes them a good team in my opinion. 
 

  Like I said, I guess we just have different definitions of average. To me, an average team doesn’t consistently beat up on other average teams. If they did, they’d be a good team.  They are a .688% right now. It’ll go down as the year goes on and they’ll end up around .575-.615 or so in the good team zone. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pete said:

When you say it doesn't matter who they played, by that logic a game against Montreal and a game against Vegas hold the same weight. They don't and we all know this.

 

They are relying on Vezina caliber goaltending and a favorable schedule. 

 

Unless they make some changes, it will all even out in the wash. They'll make the playoffs due to banked points, but I'd would not expect this team to make much noise. 

 

We don't know what this team will be at seasons end. Still too early.

Now, they're good [enough]. They're high in the standings with several key areas that could improve. 

Long season and they aren't half way.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Few things. 
   Many good teams rely on some of their best players to be where they are. Elite teams have more complete teams. I don’t think anyone disagrees that we aren’t a deep playoff team right now. A 70% win percentage for the year would make them elite. I doubt they keep up that pace so that makes them a good team in my opinion. 
 

  Like I said, I guess we just have different definitions of average. To me, an average team doesn’t consistently beat up on other average teams. If they did, they’d be a good team.  They are a .688% right now. It’ll go down as the year goes on and they’ll end up around .575-.615 or so in the good team zone. 

 

 

I don't put stock in the winning percentage because again, they are winning games against bad teams and losing games against good ones. So any point made around the record means very little. 

[Pete]

23 minutes ago, josh said:

 

 

We don't know what this team will be at seasons end. Still too early.

Now, they're good [enough]. They're high in the standings with several key areas that could improve. 

Long season and they aren't half way.

My assessment is based on what they are today. 

 

Zib continues to heat to up, Kakko gets consistent, Laf does anything, Miller tightens up, different ballgame.

 

Today they are an average team. They're literally icing half a competent team...they have 2 lines, 2.5 D pairs, and goaltending ... Right now.

[Keirik]

19 minutes ago, Pete said:

My assessment is based on what they are today. 

 

Zib continues to heat to up, Kakko gets consistent, Laf does anything, Miller tightens up, different ballgame.

 

Today they are an average team. They're literally icing half a competent team...they have 2 lines, 2.5 D pairs, and goaltending ... Right now.

I don’t put 100% stock in it either. Which is why I’m not calling the Rangers elite despite having the 5th most point in the entire NHL. It doesn’t mean you ignore it all together though because not everyone is firing on all cylinders. Average are the Detroit Red Wings. We are not the Detroit Red Wings and until their records are similar, I find very little logic in saying both are “average” teams. 

[josh]

52 minutes ago, Pete said:

My assessment is based on what they are today. 

 

Zib continues to heat to up, Kakko gets consistent, Laf does anything, Miller tightens up, different ballgame.

 

Today they are an average team. They're literally icing half a competent team...they have 2 lines, 2.5 D pairs, and goaltending ... Right now.

But right now, they are not an average team. They are one of the best teams. They even have standings to show this.

 

You project them to be average [at the end of the season].

Which might not be wrong. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, josh said:

But right now, they are not an average team. They are one of the best teams. They even have standings to show this.

 

You project them to be average [at the end of the season].

Which might not be wrong. 

The standings don't tell us the quality of the team, they measure the quality of the team versus the competition they've been faced with.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

I don’t put 100% stock in it either. Which is why I’m not calling the Rangers elite despite having the 5th most point in the entire NHL. It doesn’t mean you ignore it all together though because not everyone is firing on all cylinders. Average are the Detroit Red Wings. We are not the Detroit Red Wings and until their records are similar, I find very little logic in saying both are “average” teams. 

I haven't looked at Detroit's competition. 

 

There are teams up in the standings who have had harder seasons than the Rangers had. 

[Sod16]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

Sorry but you can't just pull out the performances in games that end in shootouts or OT and act like those games don't exist when looking at record. 

I'm not pulling out the performances in games that end in OT or shootouts.  I'm factoring them for what they are: ties.  How a team does in 3 on 3 and shootouts speaks little as to whether they will contend come playoff time.  Playoff OT, which is tight checking 5 on 5, is far removed from the 3 on 3 free for all.  Shootouts have nothing to do with what goes on in the playoffs.  

 

Anyway Pete, we're coming down in the same place.  Good but not elite.

Spoiler

,

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Sod16