MTL Draft Controversial Prospect, Logan Mailloux

[Keirik]

MOD Edit:

 

For context on the Mailloux story (and some apologies to Keirik for splitting this off from another thread somewhat ad-hoc):

 

https://theathletic.com/news/prospect-logan-mailloux-withdraws-from-2021-nhl-draft-after-conviction-in-sweden/9WXHwcZ5XTpl

 

Prospect Logan Mailloux has withdrawn from this week's NHL Draft following his conviction last year in Sweden for taking a photo of a woman performing a sex act without her consent and circulating it among some teammates.

 

"The NHL Draft should be one of the most exciting landmark moments in a player's career, and given the circumstances I don't feel I have shown strong enough maturity or character to earn that privilege in the 2021 Draft," he wrote Tuesday in a statement on social media. "I feel that this would allow me the opportunity to demonstrate an adequate level of maturity and character next season ... and provide all the NHL teams the opportunity to reassess my character towards the 2022 NHL Draft."

 

I might be in the minority, but I don’t think what Mailloux did as a kid is all that uncommon. Shitty thing to do so I’m not justifying it but it happens a lot, especially among youth or testosterone filled rooms where immature guys try to prove their “coolness.”

[Cash or Czech]

Only room for one, what?

 

Attitude-problem that'll be an on and off-ice distraction for the team.

 

I might be in the minority, but I don’t think what Mailloux did as a kid is all that uncommon. Shitty thing to do so I’m not justifying it but it happens a lot, especially among youth or testosterone filled rooms where immature guys try to prove their “coolness.”

 

It's that there are literally no repercussions for him doing so. He paid a fine. He's an NHL first round draft pick and is going to be making infinitely more times that in his career. It's not even about "cancelling" him. It's the fact that neither he nor the team have even mentioned the victim in this scenario. The Canadiens prepared a statement before the draft knowing they were going to draft him, and didn't mention their support for the victim. Mailloux himself didn't apologize aside from a short text. It's about being held accountable for his actions and he hasn't. Literally has not had any negative impact on his life.

[josh]

I might be in the minority, but I don’t think what Mailloux did as a kid is all that uncommon. Shitty thing to do so I’m not justifying it but it happens a lot, especially among youth or testosterone filled rooms where immature guys try to prove their “coolness.”

 

Thank god we didnt have cellphones with cameras when I was in high school

[LindG1000]

I might be in the minority, but I don’t think what Mailloux did as a kid is all that uncommon. Shitty thing to do so I’m not justifying it but it happens a lot, especially among youth or testosterone filled rooms where immature guys try to prove their “coolness.”

 

You're not in the minority here - but that's the problem, isn't it?

 

I'm 100% certain that Mailloux wasn't the first to do this and won't be the last. I'm even more certain of it because Mailloux was drafted higher than he should have been as a hockey player, higher than he should have been as a person, and way higher than he should have been given the actions he took - all in spite of the fact.

 

Given Virtanen, given Mailloux, given the Blackhawks, given the Downie/Aliu stuff - one has to wonder where the NHL draws the line on showing victims some level of respect. This was a chance to send a crystal clear message that there are consequences for your behavior towards women and toward each other, and they dropped the ball real hard.

[Keirik]

You're not in the minority here - but that's the problem, isn't it?

 

I'm 100% certain that Mailloux wasn't the first to do this and won't be the last. I'm even more certain of it because Mailloux was drafted higher than he should have been as a hockey player, higher than he should have been as a person, and way higher than he should have been given the actions he took - all in spite of the fact.

 

Given Virtanen, given Mailloux, given the Blackhawks, given the Downie/Aliu stuff - one has to wonder where the NHL draws the line on showing victims some level of respect. This was a chance to send a crystal clear message that there are consequences for your behavior towards women and toward each other, and they dropped the ball real hard.

 

I just don’t know what our end game is as a society with this. I can tell you I’ve taken many many reports of this exact same thing with some being even much worse scenarios of outing one’s sexuality. It’s horrible for the victims. In some talks with the suspects, they almost never understand the gravity of what they are doing. It’s a byproduct of just the idea cameras now are so readily available and integrated in our lives. It’s a byproduct of how little we educate generations of the impact of social media, multimedia, misinformation, cameras, etc. I just don’t think people understand the power of that with it being so accessible now or the lasting consequences of sharing private moments.

 

What jobs can offenders then have if they’ve made this horrible mistake at 17 or 18? Forget what adults do. They should know better. 17 year old? 18 years old? It’s such an immature world out there these days. Should they know better? Sure. Do they? From what I’ve seen they often don’t. I just don’t like the cancel of the person idea. Yes the nhl is a privilege. I do get that.

[Cash or Czech]

I just don’t know what our end game is as a society with this. I can tell you I’ve taken many many reports of this exact same thing with some being even much worse scenarios of outing one’s sexuality. It’s horrible for the victims. In some talks with the suspects, they almost never understand the gravity of what they are doing. It’s a byproduct of just the idea cameras now are so readily available and integrated in our lives. It’s a byproduct of how little we educate generations of the impact of social media, multimedia, misinformation, cameras, etc. I just don’t think people understand the power of that with it being so accessible now or the lasting consequences of sharing private moments.

 

What jobs can offenders then have if they’ve made this horrible mistake at 17 or 18? Forget what adults do. They should know better. 17 year old? 18 years old? It’s such an immature world out there these days. Should they know better? Sure. Do they? From what I’ve seen they often don’t. I just don’t like the cancel of the person idea. Yes the nhl is a privilege. I do get that.

 

So if the NHL bans Mailloux from being drafted, or the 32 NHL teams all agree not to draft him, doesn't that send a message to 17 and 18 year olds to not do stupid shit like this? That there are consequences to doing terrible things? That this is a mistake that one made so others don't have to? Your solution is to let it slide and hope each individual in the future hopefully sees the public scorn Mailloux is getting and try to learn from it. I'm taking a more active and hands-on approach of ensuring that there are tangible consequences for this one individual in the hope that it'll a) make Mailloux even a little remorseful and b) make future prospects and young men hopefully learn from this and see that if they do something it has repercussions.

 

I don't think the 'hands off, hope people learn out of their own volition' is effective in most senses, and especially not in this one.

 

EDIT: The endgame as a society is to make the individuals better people. Doing nothing doesn't get us anywhere closer to that goal.

[LindG1000]

I just don’t know what our end game is as a society with this. I can tell you I’ve taken many many reports of this exact same thing with some being even much worse scenarios of outing one’s sexuality. It’s horrible for the victims. In some talks with the suspects, they almost never understand the gravity of what they are doing. It’s a byproduct of just the idea cameras now are so readily available and integrated in our lives. It’s a byproduct of how little we educate generations of the impact of social media, multimedia, misinformation, cameras, etc. I just don’t think people understand the power of that with it being so accessible now or the lasting consequences of sharing private moments.

 

What jobs can offenders then have if they’ve made this horrible mistake at 17 or 18? Forget what adults do. They should know better. 17 year old? 18 years old? It’s such an immature world out there these days. Should they know better? Sure. Do they? From what I’ve seen they often don’t. I just don’t like the cancel of the person idea. Yes the nhl is a privilege. I do get that.

 

I think there's two points tied up here and I'll do my best to untangle them.

 

First - we're not doing enough as a society to properly educate future generations on the impacts of their actions. That's something we need to do better work on on a societal level. Part of that education is to show up examples of the consequences of disrespect; in this case, Mailloux would have had his draft year delayed by a season. Part of it is to figure out how to educate kids with the pace of technology rapidly increasing to be responsible. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it, so why does it suddenly come into play here? Part of it is basic decency - I don't think I need to give the obvious example of "if this were your daughter". Regardless, we can't use poor education to "boys will be boys" this one or whatever, but we can devise a fair system by which others and Mailloux understand the gravity of his actions; step 1 would have been "don't fucking draft the kid right this instant". Mailloux himself suggested that he needed to work on being a better person - that's a great step that I'd reckon most don't immediately take.

 

Second - As for the whole "he's cancelled" thing - god, I fucking hate that word because it's basically become "people who behave in a means consistent with my politics shouldn't suffer the consequences of their actions". I don't think it's debatable that these actions call for consequences; this isn't him saying something dumb, it's him doing something that caused real harm to another human being.

 

The consequence Mailloux should have faced was outlined by Mailloux himself - I fucked up pretty bad; please give me the chance to make this right and earn the honor of a selection. And that's reasonable. He'd delay his draft one year - that does not ruin his life, it does not ruin his career, it does not "cancel" him - whatever that means now. It's a fair and reasonable rehabilitation-based consequence to grow as a person and understand the harm he caused someone else that has no choice but to live with the damage he caused. And he'd still have the chance of an NHL career same as he would had he never done it.

 

By ignoring that and just choosing him anyway, the NHL continues to prove that it just does not care how you behave off the ice so long as you're good at hockey. It's the wrong message to send to the victims (and future victims), it's the wrong message to send to Mailloux, it's the wrong message to send to the fans, it's the wrong message to send to league employees, and so on.

[Keirik]

I’m not saying to ignore it. I’m just saying “ok, you are now excluded from careers x,y, or a” because of a mistake as a minor isn’t exactly the best solution either. I also don’t know where we draw that line on what career he or she is now allowed to have. Also, let’s not forget he asked to not be drafted this year I believe. Making examples of people is something as a society I wish we would move away from and focus more on teaching, educating, and rehabilitation when talking about incidents at such young ages.

[Pete]

I think there's two points tied up here and I'll do my best to untangle them.

 

First - we're not doing enough as a society to properly educate future generations on the impacts of their actions. That's something we need to do better work on on a societal level. Part of that education is to show up examples of the consequences of disrespect; in this case, Mailloux would have had his draft year delayed by a season. Part of it is to figure out how to educate kids with the pace of technology rapidly increasing to be responsible. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it, so why does it suddenly come into play here? Part of it is basic decency - I don't think I need to give the obvious example of "if this were your daughter". Regardless, we can't use poor education to "boys will be boys" this one or whatever, but we can devise a fair system by which others and Mailloux understand the gravity of his actions; step 1 would have been "don't fucking draft the kid right this instant". Mailloux himself suggested that he needed to work on being a better person - that's a great step that I'd reckon most don't immediately take.

 

Second - As for the whole "he's cancelled" thing - god, I fucking hate that word because it's basically become "people who behave in a means consistent with my politics shouldn't suffer the consequences of their actions". I don't think it's debatable that these actions call for consequences; this isn't him saying something dumb, it's him doing something that caused real harm to another human being.

 

The consequence Mailloux should have faced was outlined by Mailloux himself - I fucked up pretty bad; please give me the chance to make this right and earn the honor of a selection. And that's reasonable. He'd delay his draft one year - that does not ruin his life, it does not ruin his career, it does not "cancel" him - whatever that means now. It's a fair and reasonable rehabilitation-based consequence to grow as a person and understand the harm he caused someone else that has no choice but to live with the damage he caused. And he'd still have the chance of an NHL career same as he would had he never done it.

 

By ignoring that and just choosing him anyway, the NHL continues to prove that it just does not care how you behave off the ice so long as you're good at hockey. It's the wrong message to send to the victims (and future victims), it's the wrong message to send to Mailloux, it's the wrong message to send to the fans, it's the wrong message to send to league employees, and so on.

He paid his debt to society. That was a very light price, but blame Sweden or wherever he did this.

 

He said he wanted to go back to London and show he's matured. He can still do that, while his rights sit with Montreal.

[Cash or Czech]

He paid his debt to society. That was a very light price, but blame Sweden or wherever he did this.

 

He said he wanted to go back to London and show he's matured. He can still do that, while his rights sit with Montreal.

 

Private entities can instill their own punishments separate from governments and states. The NHL has rampant misconduct issues, and has done little to squash them. This is yet another opportunity amongst many they have let slide.

[Keirik]

So if the NHL bans Mailloux from being drafted, or the 32 NHL teams all agree not to draft him, doesn't that send a message to 17 and 18 year olds to not do stupid shit like this? That there are consequences to doing terrible things? That this is a mistake that one made so others don't have to?

 

Honestly, no I don’t think it sends a message when you are talking about people in that age group or at least it certainly doesn’t concretely do so. When I take multiple different criminal reports in the same school for these exact things that shows me certain age groups don’t exactly learn or grasp these things. When I see a DWI fatal accident with a 17 year old kid and later in the same year deal with other DWI situations with classmates that shows me kids don’t think that far ahead or even consider the ramifications as much as us adults do. Hell, many adults don’t even think “smarter” and they damn well should know. Cue ADA.

 

You want to give the kid probation, or if he is drafted be forced to complete some mandatory program working with victims, or community service before being eligible to play, or any number of rehabilitation efforts to really cement it home what he’s done and hopefully now turn him into a productive person in a better position as an athlete to help the type of people he has hurt then I’m all for it. Simply saying “no, you’re done. Adios” isn’t the best solution in my opinion.

 

Just my opinion.

[jsm7302]

The criminal justice system is setup to reform people, not punish them for nonviolent offenses. The system is setup for reintegration seamlessly into society through rehabs, community service etc in hopes of society accepting mistakes. This is to the extent that landlords, jobs etc. have no way of learning about nor asking about these misdeeds.

 

Social justice chooses to make examples of, embarrass, and never forgive the misdeeds until a pound of flesh is given for saying the wrong thing, acting the wrong way even as a juvenile. In a time when the criminal Justice system is trying to reform the way juveniles are handled with a more hands off approach; the social justice warriors want a hands on, life long consequence approach.

 

I dont get it nor understand it. Education and and service is the only way to change society. Forcing a square peg into a round hole is never going to work. Making examples of people is not how this system is setup. Each case is inidividual to itself.

[Cash or Czech]

Honestly, no I don’t think it sends a message when you are talking about people in that age group or at least it certainly doesn’t concretely do so. When I take multiple different criminal reports in the same school for these exact things that shows me certain age groups don’t exactly learn or grasp these things. When I see a DWI fatal accident with a 17 year old kid and later in the same year deal with other DWI situations with classmates that shows me kids don’t think that far ahead or even consider the ramifications as much as us adults do. Hell, many adults don’t even think “smarter” and they damn well should know. Cue ADA.

 

You want to give the kid probation, or if he is drafted be forced to complete some mandatory program working with victims, or community service before being eligible to play, or any number of rehabilitation efforts to really cement it home what he’s done and hopefully now turn him into a productive person in a better position as an athlete to help the type of people he has hurt then I’m all for it. Simply saying “no, you’re done. Adios” isn’t the best solution in my opinion.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'm all for your opinion. I love the idea of probation/rehabilitation. Because it acknowledges that the individual did something wrong, and the league cares enough about the individual being wrong that it is stepping in to course-correct.

 

For clarification, I'm not saying he should be done. But he shouldn't have been a first round pick. Should've have even been eligible this year. The fact that he renouced his eligibility (I appreciate that he took this step as an acknowledgement of his wrongdoing) and he was still draft eligible, and the Habs took him in the first round is what shows that there were no consequences from a league perspective. If he does a year of rehabilitation, shows remorse, does the work to improve then gets reinstated to be drafted in 2022, that's the path I would have said "NHL did good by this kid and the victim".

[LindG1000]

I’m not saying to ignore it. I’m just saying “ok, you are now excluded from careers x,y, or a” because of a mistake as a minor isn’t exactly the best solution either. I also don’t know where we draw that line on what career he or she is now allowed to have. Also, let’s not forget he asked to not be drafted this year I believe. Making examples of people is something as a society I wish we would move away from and focus more on teaching, educating, and rehabilitation when talking about incidents at such young ages.

 

Right, but nobody is calling for him to be excluded from career x or y or z. They're calling for him to have to demonstrate the growth as a person that you'd want a minor who did something this dumb to show before being given the honor of a prestigious, high profile career. It's almost exactly the remediation you're championing here.

[Pete]

Private entities can instill their own punishments separate from governments and states. The NHL has rampant misconduct issues, and has done little to squash them. This is yet another opportunity amongst many they have let slide.

 

The can, but should they? Who decides when the debt has been paid? Why have laws at all, when corporations are deciding?

[Pete]

Right, but nobody is calling for him to be excluded from career x or y or z. They're calling for him to have to demonstrate the growth as a person that you'd want a minor who did something this dumb to show before being given the honor of a prestigious, high profile career. It's almost exactly the remediation you're championing here.

 

And, he can do that while still having his rights owned by Montreal. No one has promised him anything, he's a draft pick at this point.

 

What would be different if he went back to London and re-entered the draft next year? All this means is he knows what team owns his rights. It literally has nothing to do with his ability to reform himself. Being picked doesn't guaruntee you a spot, Hugh Jessiman.

[LindG1000]

And, he can do that while still having his rights owned by Montreal. No one has promised him anything, he's a draft pick at this point.

 

What would be different if he went back to London and re-entered the draft next year? All this means is he knows what team owns his rights. It literally has nothing to do with his ability to reform himself. Being picked doesn't guaruntee you a spot, Hugh Jessiman.

 

Not arguing that can still happen. What would be different is that he'd have actually earned the right for that selection before he was picked instead of getting the reward without the effort.

[Capt]

So if the NHL bans Mailloux from being drafted, or the 32 NHL teams all agree not to draft him, doesn't that send a message to 17 and 18 year olds to not do stupid shit like this? That there are consequences to doing terrible things? That this is a mistake that one made so others don't have to? Your solution is to let it slide and hope each individual in the future hopefully sees the public scorn Mailloux is getting and try to learn from it. I'm taking a more active and hands-on approach of ensuring that there are tangible consequences for this one individual in the hope that it'll a) make Mailloux even a little remorseful and b) make future prospects and young men hopefully learn from this and see that if they do something it has repercussions.

 

I don't think the 'hands off, hope people learn out of their own volition' is effective in most senses, and especially not in this one.

 

EDIT: The endgame as a society is to make the individuals better people. Doing nothing doesn't get us anywhere closer to that goal.

The NHL saves those kind of actions for right wing twitter accounts

[Pete]

Not arguing that can still happen. What would be different is that he'd have actually earned the right for that selection before he was picked instead of getting the reward without the effort.

Don't really see the difference as long as he gets educated on his issue. Doesn't matter to me if he gets right with the lord before, during, or after the draft.

 

If it's insincere and he turns into a serial rapist, then I doubt he plays a game in the ECHL, let alone NHL. All of this, to me, is the epitome of cancel culture and virtue signaling.

[Capt]

The criminal justice system is setup to reform people, not punish them for nonviolent offenses. The system is setup for reintegration seamlessly into society through rehabs, community service etc in hopes of society accepting mistakes. This is to the extent that landlords, jobs etc. have no way of learning about nor asking about these misdeeds.

 

Social justice chooses to make examples of, embarrass, and never forgive the misdeeds until a pound of flesh is given for saying the wrong thing, acting the wrong way even as a juvenile. In a time when the criminal Justice system is trying to reform the way juveniles are handled with a more hands off approach; the social justice warriors want a hands on, life long consequence approach.

 

I dont get it nor understand it. Education and and service is the only way to change society. Forcing a square peg into a round hole is never going to work. Making examples of people is not how this system is setup. Each case is inidividual to itself.

 

Those same people want second chances for violent criminals but people with thought crimes might as well be branded for life. Yeah makes sense.

[LindG1000]

Don't really see the difference as long as he gets educated on his issue. Doesn't matter to me if he gets right with the lord before, during, or after the draft.

 

If it's insincere and he turns into a serial rapist, then I doubt he plays a game in the ECHL, let alone NHL. All of this, to me, is the epitome of cancel culture and virtue signaling.

 

If there's one word I could completely remove from the public discourse, it's "cancel culture". It's literally a term for "I don't agree with you, therefore you're trying to end someone's career/livelihood" at this point. Doubly so when the discussion is literally "we agree with the criminal's assessment that he isn't mature enough to have earned the right and think he should have been allowed to follow his own damn request".

 

Mailloux himself thinks he has work to do and didn't deserve to be drafted based on his behaviors. He got drafted anyway and I hope he proves his words weren't just meaningless bluster. The NHL has long made a habit of not caring about these sorts of situations, so color me unsurprised if he doesn't.

[Capt]

If there's one word I could completely remove from the public discourse, it's "cancel culture". It's literally a term for "I don't agree with you, therefore you're trying to end someone's career/livelihood" at this point. Doubly so when the discussion is literally "we agree with the criminal's assessment that he isn't mature enough to have earned the right and think he should have been allowed to follow his own damn request".

 

Mailloux himself thinks he has work to do and didn't deserve to be drafted based on his behaviors. He got drafted anyway and I hope he proves his words weren't just meaningless bluster. The NHL has long made a habit of not caring about these sorts of situations, so color me unsurprised if he doesn't.

 

Is this really the place to discuss cancel culture? I don't want to be banned from this section too because you bring politics into the discussion.

[Pete]

If there's one word I could completely remove from the public discourse, it's "cancel culture". It's literally a term for "I don't agree with you, therefore you're trying to end someone's career/livelihood" at this point. Doubly so when the discussion is literally "we agree with the criminal's assessment that he isn't mature enough to have earned the right and think he should have been allowed to follow his own damn request".

 

Mailloux himself thinks he has work to do and didn't deserve to be drafted based on his behaviors. He got drafted anyway and I hope he proves his words weren't just meaningless bluster. The NHL has long made a habit of not caring about these sorts of situations, so color me unsurprised if he doesn't.

 

It's literally not, but we agree to disagree.

[LindG1000]

Is this really the place to discuss cancel culture? I don't want to be banned from this section too because you bring politics into the discussion.

 

If you can't walk the line, then don't. This thread is walking the line in a pretty serious discussion about a place where society and hockey overlap. It's also probably about to be split off since we've got two threads going on about it and this one should be more about ADA's buyout than Logan Mailloux's drafitng.

[LindG1000]

It's literally not, but we agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough. You want to see remorse, I want to see remorse before he got the reward for it. The issue is order of operations.