[friedman] Jeff Gorton, Chris Drury Contracts Extended

[Pete]

It's not how most of us see it, but he still gets credit for both. Moreso Panarin. He stuck to his guns there. He could have offered him 13M and made sure he got him, but he gave a best offer he was comfortable with from a team cap perspective and stuck to his guns. He was ready to move on without him if necessary. Some people don't acknowledge, or understand, this part of negotiation. Credit where credit is due. Countless GMs fearfully up their offers to exorbitant levels. He didn't blink.

 

Yes kudos for recognizing he had living in NYC on his side.

 

He should totally get a high five for understanding market.

 

If only he carried that patience to the Trouba negotiation.

[tphilly5]

What? Cap space? He bought out Shattenkirk when he didn't have to, and he's probably going to buy out Lundqvist because he didn't trade Geo to Toronto when many reports say he could've gotten Rasmus Sandin...

 

Oh lordy talk about a take with no substance behind it.

 

Talk about no substance. Your claim that Gorton is middle of the road is based on Panarin, Trouba, and Fox wanting to be here. Gorton made the two trades to get it done and had the cap space to sign Panarin and Trouba long term.

 

We got stars, we got top level prospects, we have our picks, and we got a team on the playoff fringe at least a few years ahead of schedule. You nit pick if you think it supports your alternate reality.

 

Great signing by JD to keep Gorton in place.

[Pete]

Talk about no substance. Your claim that Gorton is middle of the road is based on Panarin, Trouba, and Fox wanting to be here. Gorton made the two trades to get it done and had the cap space to sign Panarin and Trouba long term.

 

We got stars, we got top level prospects, we have our picks, and we got a team on the playoff fringe at least a few years ahead of schedule. You nit pick if you think it supports your alternate reality.

 

Great signing by JD to keep Gorton in place.

LOL. Sure.

 

I'm definitely in an alternate reality than the blue tinted one you operate in. But it doesn't make my reality wrong.

 

Trouba Panarin and Fox would want to be in NY if Grimmace was the GM. He threw a bag of money at Panarin and Trouba (this one when he didn't have to).

 

There is nobody in the league who thought Fox would step in and do what he did this quickly.

 

there is just as much good fortune as there was planning involved in what's happening with this team.

 

I'm actually still waiting for somebody to counter any point that I've made especially the one about selling high on Geo when he could have had Sandin, and screwing himself so badly with the cap that he had to move an asset for cap space.

[LindG1000]

This is how I see it.

 

Strome is a good player who's in a fortunate position to score at a rate higher than he normally would because of where he is in the lineup. But I wouldn't pay Strome based on his point totals this year.

 

Similarly, Gorton is a good GM who has the fortune of being in a city a lot of players want to play in, with a bankroll that allowed him to erase his own mistakes in Shattenkirk and throw money at Panarin.

 

But I wouldn't call him GM of the year or give him high fives for Panarin, Fox, Trouba, the #2 overall falling in his lap, etc...

 

His mismanagement of the cap meant he had to trade Skjei for space rather than trading to address a need (Like getting Trocek), didn't move Geo when Geo was at his peak... Etc.

 

That guy is like the baseball player who only hits .270 but when he actually manages to make contact its a home run.

 

And that baseball player is going to be among both the best and highest paid players in the league.

 

Nobody's calling Gorton GM of the Year (though, fair play if this team makes playoffs if you want to throw a few votes his way).

 

I'd absolutely give him his kudos for what he's done over the years for this franchise, though. The Zib trade, the Nash trade, the Stepan trade, the Panarin signing, the Trouba deal, how he's been able to help turn Hartford around, keeping the right sort of talented folks who know the game on both sides in the front office - he does a lot of things quite well.

 

As far as I can tell, his two biggest flaws are that he can't seem to appropriately value defensive contracts and he, for some reason, doesn't deal with the panicky, less stable GMs in the league.

 

If you want to say he's not GM of the Year? Sure. To call his work pure happenstance, pure luck, or to call him a bad GM is a farcical take.

[LindG1000]

LOL. Sure.

 

I'm definitely in an alternate reality than the blue tinted one you operate in. But it doesn't make my reality wrong.

 

Trouba Panarin and Fox would want to be in NY if Grimmace was the GM. He threw a bag of money at Panarin and Trouba (this one when he didn't have to).

 

There is nobody in the league who thought Fox would step in and do what he did this quickly.

 

there is just as much good fortune as there was planning involved in what's happening with this team.

 

I'm actually still waiting for somebody to counter any point that I've made especially the one about selling high on Geo when he could have had Sandin, and screwing himself so badly with the cap that he had to move an asset for cap space.

 

Sure.

 

Rasmus Sandin was literally never going to be on the table for Georgiev. If he was, Georgiev would be a Leaf already. If he was, and Gorton pulled out of the deal? Gorton would deserve criticism. Rasmus Sandin may have been the ASK, but there's no record of Dubas putting him on the table.

 

As for cap space, a crotchety contrarian once said something like "there's just as much good fortune as there was planning involved in what's happening with this team". The place that went off the rails is DeAngelo, where there was literally no reason to believe he'd do what he's done this year. If you're gonna pay 5 and change for a defender, do you want the one blowing coverages and putting up 25 points, or the one blowing coverages and putting up 60?

[tphilly5]

LOL. Sure.

 

I'm definitely in an alternate reality than the blue tinted one you operate in. But it doesn't make my reality wrong.

 

Trouba Panarin and Fox would want to be in NY if Grimmace was the GM. He threw a bag of money at Panarin and Trouba (this one when he didn't have to).

 

There is nobody in the league who thought Fox would step in and do what he did this quickly.

 

there is just as much good fortune as there was planning involved in what's happening with this team.

 

I'm actually still waiting for somebody to counter any point that I've made especially the one about selling high on Geo when he could have had Sandin, and screwing himself so badly with the cap that he had to move an asset for cap space.

 

Your reality is wrong because it doesn?t make any sense, not because of any blue tint.

 

You speak with broad brushes that you have no idea if they are true. Nobody thought Fox would step in and do what he has done? Well Gorton traded for him and had him slotted in a prominent spot in the line up. You have no idea what was on the table for Georgie. You have no idea how Georgie will perform or what he may return if dealt at a more opportune time.

 

Your points have been countered. Skjei was moved because he was underperforming his contract and Gorton has built impressive blue line depth. I was surprised Gorton found a taker.

 

Gorton has done a remarkable job and got an extension. You make a silly claim that his results are due to good fortune and players wanting to be in New York. Sounds to me like you are dug in on a position the results don?t support. Just saying.

[Pete]

Your reality is wrong because it doesn’t make any sense, not because of any blue tint.

 

You speak with broad brushes that you have no idea if they are true. Nobody thought Fox would step in and do what he has done? Well Gorton traded for him and had him slotted in a prominent spot in the line up. You have no idea what was on the table for Georgie. You have no idea how Georgie will perform or what he may return if dealt at a more opportune time.

 

Your points have been countered. Skjei was moved because he was underperforming his contract and Gorton has built impressive blue line depth. I was surprised Gorton found a taker.

 

Gorton has done a remarkable job and got an extension. You make a silly claim that his results are due to good fortune and players wanting to be in New York. Sounds to me like you are dug in on a position the results don’t support. Just saying.

 

This is a post full of straw man arguments. Not worth a response.

[Pete]

[/b]

 

Sure.

 

Rasmus Sandin was literally never going to be on the table for Georgiev. If he was, Georgiev would be a Leaf already. If he was, and Gorton pulled out of the deal? Gorton would deserve criticism. Rasmus Sandin may have been the ASK, but there's no record of Dubas putting him on the table.

GO back and check, my guy. Dreger has comments about Kapanen nor Sandin for Geo getting it done because Gorton wouldn't. It's out there. Google is your friend.

 

 

As for cap space, a crotchety contrarian once said something like "there's just as much good fortune as there was planning involved in what's happening with this team". The place that went off the rails is DeAngelo, where there was literally no reason to believe he'd do what he's done this year. If you're gonna pay 5 and change for a defender, do you want the one blowing coverages and putting up 25 points, or the one blowing coverages and putting up 60?

 

I have no idea what this has to do with what I said.

[Pete]

[/b]

 

And that baseball player is going to be among both the best and highest paid players in the league.

 

Nobody's calling Gorton GM of the Year (though, fair play if this team makes playoffs if you want to throw a few votes his way).

I said nothing about his paycheck and it wouldn't be what the .330 hitter with just as many HRs gets. And Elliot called him a GM of the year candidate, jesus watch the clip LOL.

 

I'd absolutely give him his kudos for what he's done over the years for this franchise, though. The Zib trade, the Nash trade, the Stepan trade, the Panarin signing, the Trouba deal, how he's been able to help turn Hartford around, keeping the right sort of talented folks who know the game on both sides in the front office - he does a lot of things quite well.

The Stepan trade....conveniently forgetting the strike out on Lias and acting like ADA was a centerpiece and not a throw in on the Yotes part LOL.

 

As far as I can tell, his two biggest flaws are that he can't seem to appropriately value defensive contracts and he, for some reason, doesn't deal with the panicky, less stable GMs in the league.

I also listen to BSBA.

 

If you want to say he's not GM of the Year? Sure. To call his work pure happenstance, pure luck, or to call him a bad GM is a farcical take.

I didn't call him a bad GM. You just quoted a post where I call him a good GM.

 

But the best players he added are here because they wanted to play in NY, not because he pulled some wizardry to come and get them.

 

He's got one bit of magic. Zib.

[Dunny]

GO back and check, my guy. Dreger has comments about Kapanen nor Sandin for Geo getting it done because Gorton wouldn't. It's out there. Google is your friend.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what this has to do with what I said.

 

Yeah, he said that as a joke. It was rhetorical.

[Pete]

Yeah, he said that as a joke. It was rhetorical.

Explain?

[LindG1000]

GO back and check, my guy. Dreger has comments about Kapanen nor Sandin for Geo getting it done because Gorton wouldn't. It's out there. Google is your friend.

 

Yeah, I went through Dreger's twitter before posting and saw nothing, so perhaps if you and Google are so tight, you could hook it up with a source.

[LindG1000]

Yeah, he said that as a joke. It was rhetorical.

 

Explain?

 

Holy shit Pete, go get some sleep.

[Dunny]

It went something like this:

 

He was asked what it would take to trade Georgiev to the Leafs and he said something along the lines of "I wouldn't even do it for Kapanen or Sandin"

 

That's where Dreger got it, I can't remember if it was Dreger, Friedman, or somebody else that asked him, but it was never in the context of what was offered and what was rejected. It was all just for laughs.

[tphilly5]

This is a post full of straw man arguments. Not worth a response.

 

Straw man? Those were your quotes. :banghead:

[Pete]

Holy shit Pete, go get some sleep.

Go OD on the blue Kool aid..

[LindG1000]

I said nothing about his paycheck and it wouldn't be what the .330 hitter with just as many HRs gets. And Elliot called him a GM of the year candidate, jesus watch the clip LOL.

 

The player you described is inconceivably valuable in the MLB. You're talking about a player who will hit a homer on 27% of plate appearances. There's nobody hitting "just as many" homers.

 

The Stepan trade....conveniently forgetting the strike out on Lias and acting like ADA was a centerpiece and not a throw in on the Yotes part LOL.

 

Who got the best player? Gorton. Was it the player we thought was going to be the best player in that deal? Nope.

 

I also listen to BSBA.

 

What's BSBA?

 

I didn't call him a bad GM. You just quoted a post where I call him a good GM.

 

But the best players he added are here because they wanted to play in NY, not because he pulled some wizardry to come and get them.

 

He's got one bit of magic. Zib.

 

You are though, calling his success happenstance. Which is an equally farcical take.

[Pete]

Straw man? Those were your quotes. :banghead:

You're not responding with anything of substance.

[Pete]

The player you described is inconceivably valuable in the MLB. You're talking about a player who will hit a homer on 27% of plate appearances. There's nobody hitting "just as many" homers.

OK, so make it .220. I don't watch baseball.

 

 

 

Who got the best player? Gorton. Was it the player we thought was going to be the best player in that deal? Nope.

Awesome hindsight win, there.

 

 

 

What's BSBA?

:rolleyes:

 

 

You are though, calling his success happenstance. Which is an equally farcical take.

Not all his successes. Just his biggest ones. I can call your point farcical, too. Why don't you stick to arguing fact vs fact and not calling the viewpoint a joke? Thought you were better than that.

[Pete]

It went something like this:

 

He was asked what it would take to trade Georgiev to the Leafs and he said something along the lines of "I wouldn't even do it for Kapanen or Sandin"

 

That's where Dreger got it, I can't remember if it was Dreger, Friedman, or somebody else that asked him, but it was never in the context of what was offered and what was rejected. It was all just for laughs.

 

Yea, there's really nothing out there that suggests that, at all.

 

Dreger claimed on Twitter the other day that Kasperi Kapanen would not suffice to obtain the Leafs Alexandar Georgiev from the New York Rangers.

 

 

James Mirtle

✔

@mirtle

? Jan 17, 2020

Replying to @Cerealkilla16 and 2 others

Not enough

 

 

Darren Dreger

✔

@DarrenDreger

Not even sure Kapanen gets it done.

 

130

12:56 PM - Jan 17, 2020

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The context below is that The Athletic produced an article by James Mirtle claiming ?To day, the Rangers? asking cost [for Alexandar Georgiev] has actually been high. They desire a high quality young gamer that can play currently, not a choice or a possibility, for the young Russian netminder.? Somebody responded to that tweet asking if Jeremy Bracco or Andreas Johnsson sufficed to obtain a deal done, Mirtle claimed that would not suffice, as well as Dreger chipped in claiming that Kapanen could additionally not obtain it done.

 

https://theunionjournal.com/darren-dreger-doesnt-think-the-rangers-would-deal-alexandar-georgiev-for-kasperi-kapanen-theleafsnation/

 

And then

 

 

So that was out there.

[LindG1000]

OK, so make it .220. I don't watch baseball.

 

Neither do I, but I can do enough math to understand a batting average and the relative value of a home run.

 

 

 

Awesome hindsight win, there.

 

Win's a win. He got the best player, he won the trade. End of story.

 

Not all his successes. Just his biggest ones. I can call your point farcical, too. Why don't you stick to arguing fact vs fact and not calling the viewpoint a joke? Thought you were better than that.

 

I rarely if ever call your viewpoints farcical because I prefer to argue fact to fact, but this viewpoint of yours is both lacking in facts and farcical.

 

His biggest win was the Zibanejad deal. Great trade, and Gorton deserves credit for it.

Second biggest was Panarin, and again, NY or not, it takes a LOT to get a guy to leave 15 million dollars on the table to go play for a worse team in the middle of a rebuild.

Stepan trade kicked off the rebuild and should have gotten us 2 key pieces. Still might, if Andersson wants to come back with his tail between his legs, or does enough to build his value overseas. We got the best player. We won.

Nash trade? Lindgren and the ammo to move up for K'Andre Miller. Again, we got the best player in the deal moving forward. Win.

Spooner for Strome was an absolute crusher in our favor.

Trouba deal - nothing like trading a team THEIR OWN FIRST for their best defender. Pionks grow on trees.

Hayes, Zuccarello, Grabner, Holden - guy doesn't really make too many mistakes on the trade front.

 

If you wanna throw him on the rocks for the McDonagh deal, sure. Howden blows, Hajek looks like he's seconds from never sniffing the NHL again, and it's pretty likely that the only thing we'll have to show for that deal is Nils Lundkvist, which may be good enough to call it a neutral someday. Same for the Smith deal, though much more minor.

 

And really, what's Fox costing if we wait and never make that deal? Remember that those "highly sought after college player ELCs" get kinda big with bonuses. Both Vesey and Hayes could have hit at nearly 4x depending on the year, and having Fox leave early removed the option for a 2y ELC.

 

Not really much happenstance here. The Stepan trade ended up being a bit of an asspull, sure. The rest?

[tphilly5]

You're not responding with anything of substance.

 

?Good fortune? and ?wanting to be in New York? is substance? That and judging Gorton on some tweets? Geez.

[LindG1000]

Yea, there's really nothing out there that suggests that, at all.

 

 

 

https://theunionjournal.com/darren-dreger-doesnt-think-the-rangers-would-deal-alexandar-georgiev-for-kasperi-kapanen-theleafsnation/

 

And then

 

 

So that was out there.

 

So your evidence that we turned down Rasmus Sandin for Georgiev is Dreger and Mirtle agreeing that the Rangers wouldn't take Kasperi Kapanen as a fair trade? I'm not seeing Rasmus Sandin anywhere in there.

 

Surely you see that this isn't quite holding up as a legitimate criticism of Gorton.

[Pete]

?Good fortune? and ?wanting to be in New York? is substance? That and judging Gorton on some tweets? Geez.

Dude... It's well documented all three players wanted to be here and Trouba and Fox forced it.

[Pete]

Neither do I, but I can do enough math to understand a batting average and the relative value of a home run.

 

 

 

 

 

Win's a win. He got the best player, he won the trade. End of story.

 

 

 

I rarely if ever call your viewpoints farcical because I prefer to argue fact to fact, but this viewpoint of yours is both lacking in facts and farcical.

 

His biggest win was the Zibanejad deal. Great trade, and Gorton deserves credit for it.

Second biggest was Panarin, and again, NY or not, it takes a LOT to get a guy to leave 15 million dollars on the table to go play for a worse team in the middle of a rebuild.

Stepan trade kicked off the rebuild and should have gotten us 2 key pieces. Still might, if Andersson wants to come back with his tail between his legs, or does enough to build his value overseas. We got the best player. We won.

Nash trade? Lindgren and the ammo to move up for K'Andre Miller. Again, we got the best player in the deal moving forward. Win.

Spooner for Strome was an absolute crusher in our favor.

Trouba deal - nothing like trading a team THEIR OWN FIRST for their best defender. Pionks grow on trees.

Hayes, Zuccarello, Grabner, Holden - guy doesn't really make too many mistakes on the trade front.

 

If you wanna throw him on the rocks for the McDonagh deal, sure. Howden blows, Hajek looks like he's seconds from never sniffing the NHL again, and it's pretty likely that the only thing we'll have to show for that deal is Nils Lundkvist, which may be good enough to call it a neutral someday. Same for the Smith deal, though much more minor.

 

And really, what's Fox costing if we wait and never make that deal? Remember that those "highly sought after college player ELCs" get kinda big with bonuses. Both Vesey and Hayes could have hit at nearly 4x depending on the year, and having Fox leave early removed the option for a 2y ELC.

 

Not really much happenstance here. The Stepan trade ended up being a bit of an asspull, sure. The rest?

So your evidence that we turned down Rasmus Sandin for Georgiev is Dreger and Mirtle agreeing that the Rangers wouldn't take Kasperi Kapanen as a fair trade? I'm not seeing Rasmus Sandin anywhere in there.

 

Surely you see that this isn't quite holding up as a legitimate criticism of Gorton.

You're not reading my posts so surely you can't expect me to read your novella.