Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Nice example, but this is hockey. That didn't make sense. But what makes Wheeler the MVP? He plays for one of the best teams in the league and he's not even top 10 in points league-wide, he's not a special two-way forward and most of his points comes on the PP (37 of 81, most in the NHL). He only got 19 goals (tied for 100th) and 2 GWG (tied for 156th) ffs. Winnipeg would be fine without him, hence not so valuable to his team. MacKinnon on the other hand has 91 points in 65 games(!) playing for Colorado. 3rd in points league-wide (even missed some games to injury), he's 7th in goals, 1st in GWG with 11 and leads the league in P/GP. I dont understand how anyone can have Wheeler ahead of MacKinnon. What doesn't make sense? Which is more valuable - the CEO of the business that's excellent, or the CEO of the business that's ok? Mackinnon is a better player, I'm not even arguing that. But Wheeler is more valuable. Mackinnon helps make the guys on his line better. Wheeler does the same, maybe to a lesser extent, but also allows Laine to play on the 2nd line and get favorable matchups. Wheeler also leads the league in assists, which you forgot, and punishing a guy b/c he scores on the PP, in this context, seems silly. Ovechkin had as many PPG as even strength the last time he won the Hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Wheeler, Malkin, Kuch, McDavid, Carlson are all worthy of mention, yet runnerups. Nate and Hall have been so consistent, dynamic and impactual to their team's contention that they clearly are the front runners. Neither team is a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Sidenote: it was so mysterious to me that until this year, Nate's production was not among the league leaders. He's always jumped of the screen (from a scouting and even casual perspective) as a standout performer, but the results did not seem to match. Now he can't be denied and the results are consistent. Not sure what changed, I wouldn't say his teammates have been the difference. Maybe he has begun to master that special ability to beat even the sharpest goaltenders with a super refined knack for the net? Any insights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Neither team is a contender. Well they are both clearly contending for a playoff spot. Good records and in the thick of it. And the goaltending, defense and supporting cast should be analyzed beyond just their linemates. I can see not giving it to McDavid because they been effectively out of a spot all year. And the award does not even consider playoff performance. I wish it did, but since it does not, you have to acknowledge the dramatic impact Nate and Hall have had on their teams success this regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Sidenote: it was so mysterious to me that until this year, Nate's production was not among the league leaders. He's always jumped of the screen (from a scouting and even casual perspective) as a standout performer, but the results did not seem to match. Now he can't be denied and the results are consistent. Not sure what changed, I wouldn't say his teammates have been the difference. Maybe he has begun to master that special ability to beat even the sharpest goaltenders with a super refined knack for the net? Any insights? He's still maturing physically, which makes a big difference, who knows if that's why his SH% is way up. But I think the biggest difference is that they've just left that top line alone. He's no longer got Grigorenko, Andrighetto, Comeau, Iginla, or Borque on the ice with him. He's always been productive with good players, but the upside to Duchene leaving is that they no longer have to try to spread the wealth, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Well they are both clearly contending for a playoff spot. Good records and in the thick of it. And the goaltending, defense and supporting cast should be analyzed beyond just their linemates. I can see not giving it to McDavid because they been effectively out of a spot all year. And the award does not even consider playoff performance. I wish it did, but since it does not, you have to acknowledge the dramatic impact Nate and Hall have had on their teams success this regular season. Contending for a playoff spot and being a contender aren't the same thing. Has anyone ever won the award on even a wild card team? Thornton w/ Cheechoo wasn't on a great team, but I don't think anyone has without making the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 What doesn't make sense? Which is more valuable - the CEO of the business that's excellent, or the CEO of the business that's ok? Mackinnon is a better player, I'm not even arguing that. But Wheeler is more valuable. Mackinnon helps make the guys on his line better. Wheeler does the same, maybe to a lesser extent, but also allows Laine to play on the 2nd line and get favorable matchups. Wheeler also leads the league in assists, which you forgot, and punishing a guy b/c he scores on the PP, in this context, seems silly. Ovechkin had as many PPG as even strength the last time he won the Hart. Because you didnt say anything about the ability or skills of the CEO's, you just compared a good company with a bad company. You even say MacKinnon is better, he scores more, he gets his team more points and without him his team would suck. Wheeler is one of 3-4 elite forwards on the team, his team would be fine without him. But with your logic, why exactly Wheeler and not Malkin/Kucherov/Stamkos/Marchand/Giroux/Ovechkin? What does Wheeler do that these guys dont? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Not really, unless goals is the only thing you point to. I think if you're Wheeler out on a line with Laine, the other team is looking more at Laine, less at you. I think if you're MacKinnon out on a line with Miko Raantanen, then chances are you get a little less space. Point being, just because you personally don't want to have an argument that Wheeler is not even the MVP of his team, no one can argue that MacKinnon is not. That's where they differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 9 games remaining and Wheeler has 19 goals. Has there ever been a league MVP (forward) with less then 25 goals? Honest question. For me that seems absurd. You are the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER in the entire league. You need a little more then 19 goals and just 2 GWG to be that in my eyes. MVP is literally what team would struggle the most without X player. And that is COL without MacKinnon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Because you didnt say anything about the ability or skills of the CEO's, you just compared a good company with a bad company. You even say MacKinnon is better, he scores more, he gets his team more points and without him his team would suck. Wheeler is one of 3-4 elite forwards on the team, his team would be fine without him. But with your logic, why exactly Wheeler and not Malkin/Kucherov/Stamkos/Marchand/Giroux/Ovechkin? What does Wheeler do that these guys dont? Wheeler is the undoubted #1 player on his team. Mackinnon is the same way, but of all those guys you mentioned, only Ovechkin is in the same tier. But Wheeler's play this year has moved WPG from an also-ran to a contender. None of those other players have done that, that's the big differentiator, to me. In terms of individual success, there's never much to separate the top 5-10 guys in the league. I also think Wheeler is a more complete player and "intangibles," but that's a tricky point to make lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I think if you're Wheeler out on a line with Laine, the other team is looking more at Laine, less at you. I think if you're MacKinnon out on a line with Miko Raantanen, then chances are you get a little less space. Point being, just because you personally don't want to have an argument that Wheeler is not even the MVP of his team, no one can argue that MacKinnon is not. That's where they differ. This is not making the point that Wheeler isn't the team's MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 9 games remaining and Wheeler has 19 goals. Has there ever been a league MVP (forward) with less then 25 goals? Honest question. For me that seems absurd. You are the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER in the entire league. You need a little more then 19 goals and just 2 GWG to be that in my eyes. MVP is literally what team would struggle the most without X player. And that is COL without MacKinnon. That's a good point, but seems pretty arbitrary - Sedin was the lowest recently with 29. But why do goals matter so much more than assists? And again, this is taking team success out of the picture. That always matters. No MVP has won finishing 8th in their conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 That's a good point, but seems pretty arbitrary - Sedin was the lowest recently with 29. But why do goals matter so much more than assists? And again, this is taking team success out of the picture. That always matters. No MVP has won finishing 8th in their conference. Colorado is currently 6th in the West and only 3 points out of 4th in conference and 3rd in their division. All the pro Wheeler arguments you've made point to Kucherov or Malkin being the MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Colorado is currently 6th in the West and only 3 points out of 4th in conference and 3rd in their division. All the pro Wheeler arguments you've made point to Kucherov or Malkin being the MVP. Colorado is in the Wild Card, and I wasn't talking about them specifically anyways. All the pro-anyone arguments can be applied to other players. Kucherov and Malkin both have a case, sure. Except for the fact that I already said that WPG's improvement this year separates him from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 In the wild card today. 2 points behind Minnesota. And just like WPG Tampa also failed to make the playoffs last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 In the wild card today. 2 points behind Minnesota. And just like WPG Tampa also failed to make the playoffs last year. Stamkos came back, and they've already been a contender anyways. WPG has never even won a playoff game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Plus Wheeler is tied for 10th in the league in scoring. Going back through Forward MVPs to NOT have the most points among vote getters... 2013 - Oveckin 3rd most point but 32 goals in 48 games (lockout) 2011 - Perry 3rd most points but scored 50 goals 2009 - Ovechkin 2nd most points but scored 56 goals Going all the way back to 2001. Sakic won MVP with 118 points, Mario was 2nd with 76 points in 43 games, and Jagr was 3rd with 121 No way Wheeler wins MVP finishing that low in scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Stamkos came back, and they've already been a contender anyways. WPG has never even won a playoff game. What does that have to do with this year's MVP? Biggest difference in terms of scoring this year for WPG is the emergence of a 21 yo rookie 1st round pick on the verge of scoring 30 goals. You've yet to convince anyone that Wheeler is more important than Scheifele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puck Head Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Unless he has a major surge, i don?t think Wheeler even gets nominated. Right now it?s MacKinnons to lose. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 I was watching NHL tonight last night or the night before and they were discussing the Hart. Two names that they were big on that we haven't mentioned are Eric Staal and Claude Giroux. I think both of them have had real nice seasons and I would consider them along with Wheeler...just a step below what MacKinnon has done. It's a shame that Edmonton is so bad because McDavid's point total is impressive but more impressive is his +18 on a bad team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 What does that have to do with this year's MVP? Biggest difference in terms of scoring this year for WPG is the emergence of a 21 yo rookie 1st round pick on the verge of scoring 30 goals. You've yet to convince anyone that Wheeler is more important than Scheifele. B/c WPG had a lot more room to grow, which was the whole point of that example. Connor plays with Wheeler, who has assisted on 19 of his goals. If Mackinnon gets credit for Raantanen, then Wheeler gets credit for Connor. WPG went like 7-1 when Scheifele went out and Wheeler played center. Idk how to even prove that? The entire thing is subjective, even if you want to just be pedantic on every little thing I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Plus Wheeler is tied for 10th in the league in scoring. Going back through Forward MVPs to NOT have the most points among vote getters... 2013 - Oveckin 3rd most point but 32 goals in 48 games (lockout) 2011 - Perry 3rd most points but scored 50 goals 2009 - Ovechkin 2nd most points but scored 56 goals Going all the way back to 2001. Sakic won MVP with 118 points, Mario was 2nd with 76 points in 43 games, and Jagr was 3rd with 121 No way Wheeler wins MVP finishing that low in scoring Ok - and the MVP is often given to the best scorer, not the most valuable player. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Ok - and the MVP is often given to the best scorer, not the most valuable player. What's your point? Wheeler hasn't done enough to be the MVP of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Unless Wheeler goes all 2006 Joe Thornton the last few weeks, he's not in the top 3, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Unless Wheeler goes all 2006 Joe Thornton the last few weeks, he's not in the top 3, IMO So scores 45 points in the last 9 games, sure then he can be MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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