What Other Teams Were Interested in Mark Messier in '91?

[RangersIn7]

3 minutes ago, CCCP said:

Mess took the money. Nothing wrong with that 

Yup.

No issue with him cashing in.

 

 

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

Mess had no other choice but to accept Vancouver's offer. MSG lied about what they were offering him. 

That's certainly one side of the story. 

 

The other side is that management didn't want to pay him more than Wayne Gretzky, and rightfully so. Wayne was making 6.5 a year. 

[Keirik]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sure but it's a master class in "the grass isn't always greener". He want the ticket paid, so he went to one of the shittiest divisions for travel in the entire league, and he admittedly regretted leaving New York. It was all about ego, it was never about hockey. That's a really shortsighted way to make decisions. 

Definitely a lot of truth there. I have a hard time though really shitting too much on Mess since he delivered what many of us waited an entire lifetime to finally see. I don’t really agree that it’s always been about him though. I think it morphed into him expecting to forever be Pat on the back but him asking out of Edm was just a formality. The team was getting dismantled, he already won without Gretz, and every great competitor looks for a new challenge. There was nothing left for him to do in Edmonton. Coming to NY was the ultimate challenge honestly. Many have tried and all failed before. 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Definitely a lot of truth there. I have a hard time though really shitting too much on Mess since he delivered what many of us waited an entire lifetime to finally see. I don’t really agree that it’s always been about him though. I think it morphed into him expecting to forever be Pat on the back but him asking out of Edm was just a formality. The team was getting dismantled, he already won without Gretz, and every great competitor looks for a new challenge. There was nothing left for him to do in Edmonton. Coming to NY was the ultimate challenge honestly. Many have tried and all failed before. 

I get it, like I said I was a huge fan until I read his biography, start to see the stuff behind the scenes and it kind of makes you sour on him, especially for his second stint here. 

 

Also things like forcing out Nedved and Zubov are almost unforgivable. 

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I get it, like I said I was a huge fan until I read his biography, start to see the stuff behind the scenes and it kind of makes you sour on him, especially for his second stint here. 

 

Also things like forcing out Nedved and Zubov are almost unforgivable. 

Yup. One of the worst trades in the franchises post cup history. 

[Sharpshooter]

28 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Yup. One of the worst trades in the franchises post cup history. 

In the franchise's history, period. 

[RangersIn7]

That Vancouver team regressed back to average pretty quickly after their success in the early-90’s. Even when they added Mogilny, depth wasn’t great, McLean became an average goalie, and Linden and Bure both had serious injuries by then.

Linden in fact would never be the same. Never topped 20 goals in a season again. 

36-year old Mess wasn’t changing them from also ran to contender. He wanted the money. Which is fine.

Issues and all with the Rangers, if he wanted to play out the string for a contender, he easily could’ve taken less money and done so. 

I’ll admit I don’t remember the stuff in 97.

 

But I do quite clearly remember the stuff after the Cup in 94. The contract he signed in October of 91 when he was traded to the Rangers ran through 95-96, and that contract actually upped his salary considerably as it aged. Kept him among the highest paid in the game through its life. He was set to make nearly $6 million over those 2 seasons. 
That business was over Mess wanting a renegotiated extension where they ripped up the last 2 years of his deal. And he got it. Wound up with something like $16 million over the next 3 years. 

So there was some shit on both sides. 
And there’s precedent enough to say Mess chased the bag. 

 

 

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Definitely a lot of truth there. I have a hard time though really shitting too much on Mess since he delivered what many of us waited an entire lifetime to finally see. I don’t really agree that it’s always been about him though. I think it morphed into him expecting to forever be Pat on the back but him asking out of Edm was just a formality. The team was getting dismantled, he already won without Gretz, and every great competitor looks for a new challenge. There was nothing left for him to do in Edmonton. Coming to NY was the ultimate challenge honestly. Many have tried and all failed before. 

He had to leave Edmonton once the inevitable fire sale started. Can’t blame him for rejecting their offer and asking out. And everyone knew that day would come there. 

[Keirik]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

He had to leave Edmonton once the inevitable fire sale started. Can’t blame him for rejecting their offer and asking out. And everyone knew that day would come there. 

Yeah that’s where I’m at. And the fact he came here knowing we hadn’t won in 50 years  gets my respect every time. Very few would agree with that knowing that pressure. 

[RangersIn7]

3 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Yeah that’s where I’m at. And the fact he came here knowing we hadn’t won in 50 years  gets my respect every time. Very few would agree with that knowing that pressure. 

Totally agree with that.

Took huge balls to come here given the circumstances.

 

Kinda rubbed me the wrong way though when he had a contract dispute after winning the Cup… when he already had 2 years on a pretty lucrative contract. 
 

[Keirik]

Little known fact btw, or at least one I never hear anyone say, is that when the Rangers traded the free agent rights of Messier to San Jose for future considerations, that future consideration became the 4th round pick of Ryan Callahan. 

[Rangers1994]

10 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yup.

No issue with him cashing in.

 

 

 

 

You should read these --

 

1) https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/31/sports/in-signing-messier-canucks-persistence-paid-off.html?searchResultPosition=2

 

2) https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/29/sports/a-bad-feeling-chases-messier-out-of-new-york.html?searchResultPosition=3

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Rangers1994

[Sharpshooter]

7 hours ago, Keirik said:

Little known fact btw, or at least one I never hear anyone say, is that when the Rangers traded the free agent rights of Messier to San Jose for future considerations, that future consideration became the 4th round pick of Ryan Callahan. 

Wow. I had no idea they traded his rights at one point.

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

 

You should read these --

 

1) https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/31/sports/in-signing-messier-canucks-persistence-paid-off.html?searchResultPosition=2

 

2) https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/29/sports/a-bad-feeling-chases-messier-out-of-new-york.html?searchResultPosition=3

 

 

Lol

I cant

Not a subscriber and I’m out of free reads. 

[Sharpshooter]

Say what you want about Messier and the situation in general, but him leaving for Vancouver was a huge kick in the gut. Obviously he was still beloved despite what contract disputes there were, and he was still good. I don't know how much better that Rangers team would have been because that '97-'98 squad was pretty brutal. But, it was just the fact every Rangers fans hero at the time was gone. Although, as much as I loved Messier, I was always a bigger Leetch and Richter fan.

[The Dude]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:29 AM, Sharpshooter said:

Say what you want about Messier and the situation in general, but him leaving for Vancouver was a huge kick in the gut. Obviously he was still beloved despite what contract disputes there were, and he was still good. I don't know how much better that Rangers team would have been because that '97-'98 squad was pretty brutal. But, it was just the fact every Rangers fans hero at the time was gone. Although, as much as I loved Messier, I was always a bigger Leetch and Richter fan.

People don't think about how Neil Smith was maybe just tired of being pushed around by Keenan and then Messier.  

 

Wasn't the goal to land Sakic on an offersheet that same summer? THAT would have been an interesting path to go down had Colorado not matched. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by The Dude

[Rangers1994]

16 minutes ago, The Dude said:

People don't think about how Neil Smith was maybe just tired of being pushed around by Keenan and then Messier.  

 

Wasn't the goal to land Sakic on an offersheet that same summer? THAT would have been an interesting path to go down had Colorado not matched. 

 He should have done both -- Re-sign Mess and Sign Sakic.

[Sharpshooter]

45 minutes ago, The Dude said:

People don't think about how Neil Smith was maybe just tired of being pushed around by Keenan and then Messier.  

 

Wasn't the goal to land Sakic on an offersheet that same summer? THAT would have been an interesting path to go down had Colorado not matched. 

Yeah, I remember hearing about the offer sheet.

[RangersIn7]

36 minutes ago, The Dude said:

People don't think about how Neil Smith was maybe just tired of being pushed around by Keenan and then Messier.  

 

Wasn't the goal to land Sakic on an offersheet that same summer? THAT would have been an interesting path to go down had Colorado not matched. 

Ding ding ding  

And the plan was to exchange his money for Sakic that summer. 

 

Smith was tired of Mess.

Period.

The issues with Neilson.

Bringing in all of his over the hill Oiler buddies. Which was done at his behest, let’s make no mistake. 
The contract issues in 94-95, when he had 2 years left and $5.4 million coming to him. 

Mess was 36.

Yes. He’d been better than a PPG player that previous season, but if you remember the ECF that spring, Mess was vastly outplayed by Brind’Amour. 
I don’t remember his exact numbers, but I know he didn’t score many goals in a run all the way to the ECF. And Graves was invisible. I believe Graves was playing pretty badly hurt. His back was fucked by then. Though I’m a little cloudy. 
 

Mess never played in another playoff game after that. 
He was a middle-6 player after that point, wanting top of the league money. 

 

[RangersIn7]

35 minutes ago, Rangers1994 said:

 He should have done both -- Re-sign Mess and Sign Sakic.

That makes one of those 2 or Wayne Gretzky your 3C.

And they weren’t about to pay all 3 something above $20 million to 3 centers.

 

The plan for Smith was bye to Mess, try to bring in Joe. And he knew LaFontaine was available as a fall back, IIRC. 
 

He had a plan.

It was sound.

Just didn’t happen. 

[RangersIn7]

Even with Sakic, they’d have still needed major help elsewhere on that roster in 97-98.

He would have made the destination more desirable to FA’s.

But turning that roster over quickly would have been near impossible.

 

Forward group in the top-6, even with Sakic, was not great and the bottom-6 was poor at best.

The blue line, after Leetch, was downright wretched and ancient. 

And the cupboard was bare. 
 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by RangersIn7

[Rangers1994]

8 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

That makes one of those 2 or Wayne Gretzky your 3C.

And they weren’t about to pay all 3 something above $20 million to 3 centers.

 

The plan for Smith was bye to Mess, try to bring in Joe. And he knew LaFontaine was available as a fall back, IIRC. 
 

He had a plan.

It was sound.

Just didn’t happen. 

 

So he could have used one of the 3 as a winger.  LIke I said, he should have done both -- Re-sgn Mess

-- Sign Sakic.

[RichieNextel305]

9 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Even with Sakic, they’d have still needed major help elsewhere on that roster in 97-98.

He would have made the destination more desirable to FA’s.

But turning that roster over quickly would have been near impossible.

 

Forward group in the top-6, even with Sakic, was not great and the bottom-6 was poor at best.

The blue line, after Leetch, was downright wretched and ancient. 

And the cupboard was bare. 
 

 

The roster in 97-98 looks different with Sakic on the roster, wearing the ‘C’ and getting rid of some of the stink that came with losing Messier. Leetch taking the Captaincy really weighed on him, especially taking it from Messier. It sounds goofy and whatnot, but it did effect his play a bit. Sure if you look at the numbers, they were still wildly good.  But he was off here and there after that all happened, and he was vocal about not wanting to wear it. I still think they should have just given it to Gretzky or even Graves. Leetch didn’t want it. But again, if Sakic had ended up here, he would have gotten it in all likelihood.

 

And as bad as the 97-98 roster was, getting Sakic likely meant getting Bure in 98-99 at some point. And they both would have been here, in their primes, with Leetch and Richter still relatively still in theirs. The roster would have needed work, but the Rangers would have a good start to building after Messier with all of that in place.

Edited August 19, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, RichieNextel305 said:

The roster in 97-98 looks different with Sakic on the roster, wearing the ‘C’ and getting rid of some of the stink that came with losing Messier. Leetch taking the Captaincy really weighed on him, especially taking it from Messier. It sounds goofy and whatnot, but it did effect his play a bit. Sure if you look at the numbers, they were still wildly good.  But he was off here and there after that all happened, and he was vocal about not wanting to wear it. I still think they should have just given it to Gretzky or even Graves. Leetch didn’t want it. But again, if Sakic had ended up here, he would have gotten it in all likelihood.

 

And as bad as the 97-98 roster was, getting Sakic likely meant getting Bure in 98-99 at some point. And they both would have been here, in their primes, with Leetch and Richter still relatively still in theirs. The roster would have needed work, but the Rangers would have a good start to building after Messier with all of that in place.

I don’t disagree that having Sakic helps bring in some pieces that would have been significant, like Bure.

 

But look at the roster in terms of the D corps.

Awful. Old. Slow. 

Turning that over, almost exclusively through free agency, with very little to trade from, would have been so hard.

 

 

[RangersIn7]

5 hours ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

So he could have used one of the 3 as a winger.  LIke I said, he should have done both -- Re-sgn Mess

-- Sign Sakic.

No coach was moving any of those 3 to W.

Getting one of those 3 to play fewer minutes would have been a challenge. 
Mess was really the best suited of the 3 to play a 3rd line role, and I have my doubts about whether he’d have accepted such at that time. 
 

And again- That’s Sakic at $7 million. Gretzky at $6.5. Mess at $6. 
$20 million on 3 C’s.

Not a great group on the W.

Poor bottom-6 F group that was very old.

And arguably the worst D corps in the league below Leetch. 
 

Not a good plan.

I know there was no salary cap, but they only had so much money to spend and there were only so many players available, so it would’ve been a terrible use of resources to spend all of that on 3 centermen with the dogshit on the rest of the roster.