Do the Rangers Still Win in '94 if They Got Lindros in '92?

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Sharpshooter said:

Yeah, that 2001-2002 season was really fun, for a little while anyway. lol

Till that 10-game winless streak in December/January 

 

That one I vividly remember 

[Sharpshooter]

9 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Till that 10-game winless streak in December/January 

 

That one I vividly remember 

Me too. Pre-holidays was the most fun I had watching the Rangers at that time in four or five years. lol

[RangersIn7]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Me too. Pre-holidays was the most fun I had watching the Rangers at that time in four or five years. lol

Yeah.

They looked very good for about 2 1/2 months that season. They never recovered from that stretch though.

 Ron Low was a terrible coach.

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

They looked very good for about 2 1/2 months that season. They never recovered from that stretch though.

 Ron Low was a terrible coach.

Awful. I've said for awhile on here that bad coaching has almost always been a thing with the Rangers. They usually have rather talented teams, but if you look at the coaching selections they've made over the years it's pretty terrible. This past season was another perfect example.

[RJWantsTheCup]

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

They looked very good for about 2 1/2 months that season. They never recovered from that stretch though.

 Ron Low was a terrible coach.

Ron Low might be the worst Rangers coach ever.

[Sharpshooter]

Muckler, Ron Low, Trottier....dark times. lol

[Pete]

10 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

It didn’t help that the Flyers mishandled several significant medical issues with him. It didn’t help though that his father acted as his agent and made things more difficult too. 
But I wonder had they not failed to diagnose the collapsed lung and at least one concussion, if he might have stayed healthier and not completely fractured the relationship between him and the Flyers.

 

The term “generational player” gets thrown around a lot.

Lindros thought truly was that. 
Just so many injuries. Not just the concussions. 

Had a knee injury as a rookie, then his knee, shoulder, and back the following year. Then injuries to knee, groin, and calf over next few seasons.

Thats all before he had 6-7 concussions over like an 18 month period, first of which wasn’t until late in 1997-98 season. That’s including one that they missed and he continued playing for like a week, then they tried to put him on a plane with a collapsed lung and could have killed him. 
 

Just horrible luck with his health and lots of poor handling by the Flyers.

I read a long article accompanied by a ton of video awhile back that basically outlined that because he was so big and strong and unstoppable, nobody ever really paid attention to his mechanics (and the level of attention paid to mechanics in this day and age is light years more than when he played) and everything from his skating stride to keeping his back straight and head up was atrocious. That's what led to a lot of his injuries. For someone that big, a lot of his injuries stemmed back to really bad form while skating and leaving himself exposed. 

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Awful. I've said for awhile on here that bad coaching has almost always been a thing with the Rangers. They usually have rather talented teams, but if you look at the coaching selections they've made over the years it's pretty terrible. This past season was another perfect example.

Yeah.

That team had holes, but was pretty talented and should have certainly been a playoff team.

Shame he couldn’t get more out of them. 

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

That team had holes, but was pretty talented and should have certainly been a playoff team.

Shame he couldn’t get more out of them. 

That team and the 2002-2003 team were probably the only two squads from that time period that should have been in the playoffs. They just missed in that season as Dunham almost single-handedly got them into the postseason. The following year was one of the worst seasons ever and the '97-'98 and '99-'00 were also especially terrible.

[RangersIn7]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

I read a long article accompanied by a ton of video awhile back that basically outlined that because he was so big and strong and unstoppable, nobody ever really paid attention to his mechanics (and the level of attention paid to mechanics in this day and age is light years more than when he played) and everything from his skating stride to keeping his back straight and head up was atrocious. That's what led to a lot of his injuries. For someone that big, a lot of his injuries stemmed back to really bad form while skating and leaving himself exposed. 

Now that you mentioned that, yeah, I can see it.

 

Like I said, everyone focuses on the concussions with him, and I get that.

But he had tons of other issues with injuries, and right away in his career it was an issue. Knee, back, wrist, groin, calf, etc. 

And back spasms were a regular thing for him from early on. 

I think over his first 5 seasons, he had already missed something like 80-90 games to injuries, and he didn’t have his first concussion until Kasparaitis late in his 6th season. 

[RangersIn7]

8 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

That team and the 2002-2003 team were probably the only two squads from that time period that should have been in the playoffs. They just missed in that season as Dunham almost single-handedly got them into the postseason. The following year was one of the worst seasons ever and the '97-'98 and '99-'00 were also especially terrible.

If they had been able to keep a few key guy’s healthy in those seasons and gotten even average coaching, things could have been different 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

Now that you mentioned that, yeah, I can see it.

 

Like I said, everyone focuses on the concussions with him, and I get that.

But he had tons of other issues with injuries, and right away in his career it was an issue. Knee, back, wrist, groin, calf, etc. 

And back spasms were a regular thing for him from early on. 

I think over his first 5 seasons, he had already missed something like 80-90 games to injuries, and he didn’t have his first concussion until Kasparaitis late in his 6th season. 

Right...All the bolded can be attributed back to poor mechanics, leading to bad spatial awareness (head down, can't see what's coming)

Edited August 10, 2023 by Pete

[Scott]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I read a long article accompanied by a ton of video awhile back that basically outlined that because he was so big and strong and unstoppable, nobody ever really paid attention to his mechanics (and the level of attention paid to mechanics in this day and age is light yea more than when he played) and everything from his skating stride to keeping his back straight and head up was atrocious. That's what led to a lot of his injuries. For someone that big, a lot of his injuries stemmed back to really bad form while skating and leaving himself exposed. 

Somewhat along the same lines that may have contributed to some of that. My wifes best friend was his personal banker when he first arrived in Philly, she didn't know jack shit about hockey nor did she care, she had the personality of a flea.

So when she was introduced to him and his agent for the first time it meant nothing to her. Her take away over the next few years in working with him was he really had a hard time telling his left from his right most days. His attention span was virtually none. She had and continued to deal with other pro athletes from down in that area and until this day he's far and away the one that sticks out in that manner.  I wonder if he had the ability to grasp whatever he might of been taught (coached) along the way?  He was blessed to be a manchild which carried him to be one helluva player when he was healthy.

[Ozzy]

After reading through all of these again, and again, I've come to one conclusion:

 

August is FUCKING BORING!

[RichieNextel305]

4 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

That team and the 2002-2003 team were probably the only two squads from that time period that should have been in the playoffs. They just missed in that season as Dunham almost single-handedly got them into the postseason. The following year was one of the worst seasons ever and the '97-'98 and '99-'00 were also especially terrible.

Agreed. With the start they got off to, 01-02 easily should have made the playoffs. They had 22 wins by like late-December and didn’t win their 30th game until close to St. Patrick’s day. 8 wins out of like, what? 30 games? A little less than 3 months and you win 8 games? It was a brutal, brutal stretch. And it eventually led us to getting Bure, who was absolutely incredible once he got here. But the team was so dead and lifeless, even him playing at a goal-a-game level couldn’t drag us in.

 

The following year, on paper, that team had everything they needed. But they were so brutally mismanaged right from the jump, then Richter got hurt, Holik missed a lot of time at the beginning of the year, Bure got hurt for good once he got red hot, and Lindros did a 180 from the year prior and had arguably his worst season ever. Dunham was literally the only reason we had a chance down the stretch, as he played unbelievably. Kovalev was also good after being re-acquired. But there were way too many leaky holes in that ship to stay afloat.

 

And yeah, 03-04 was a nightmare. Lindros was better, but the team was horrible. Kovalev became a diva, egomaniac who refused to shoot and only talked about himself. It was painful seeing him get booed. Jagr was acquired as a last ditch effort but that team was horrific, even with Jagr playing good. That was when the purge happened at the trade deadline.

 

August is boring.

Edited August 10, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Rangers1994]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:12 PM, Br4d said:

 

Lindros never won a Cup.  He never lead a team to a Cup.

 

He'd have won one with the Rangers with Messier just like all the other Rangers eventually did.

 

Especially with Mike Keenan as coach.

[Rangers1994]

10 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

That team and the 2002-2003 team were probably the only two squads from that time period that should have been in the playoffs. They just missed in that season as Dunham almost single-handedly got them into the postseason. The following year was one of the worst seasons ever and the '97-'98 and '99-'00 were also especially terrible.

 

The 2001-2002 team had playoff potential too.  Had they gotten Bure earlier or if they had been active in the 2001 FA market, they probably would have made the 2002 playoffs.

[RichieNextel305]

27 minutes ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

The 2001-2002 team had playoff potential too.  Had they gotten Bure earlier or if they had been active in the 2001 FA market, they probably would have made the 2002 playoffs.

They were too preoccupied on the trade market in 2001. Yeah, there were rumors of being interested in Sakic and Blake, but they were never coming here. The biggest piece was on the trade market in Jagr, who for the longest time seemed to be on his way to Broadway for the beginning of the 2001-02 season. They went back and forth with Pittsburgh for a while and because of his price tag, it seemed we were the eventual destination. And then Craig Patrick pulled a fast one and shipped him to the Caps. So Sather had to pivot to Lindros and got him for what he was essentially offering the Penguins for Jagr, and then signed him to a deal at a little over $9 Million a year for 4 years.

[goondman]

18 hours ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

Since Amonte would have gone to the Nords, whom would the Rangers have traded to get Matteau and Noonan?

Great question! Allow me to recant 

[Rangers1994]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:50 PM, RangersIn7 said:

Gretz didn’t come till 96-97. 
Mess do that with Graves and Verbeek, huge season from Leetch, Kovalev, Robitaille, and Ray Ferraro rounded out the top-6. 

 

I can understand why they traded Nedved.  But they should have kept Zubov.

[Rangers1994]

On 8/9/2023 at 10:41 AM, LindG1000 said:

 

The domino effect here is wild, though.

 

Assuming Beezer goes, you begin 1992 with Lindros over whomever you see as the 2c here (Turcotte or Weight), but literally no wing depth below Gartner/Graves. You almost have to bring one of them to the wing - likely Weight - or make a trade. Doug Weight had like 40 points as a depth player on the Rangers - now you're going to bump him (and maybe Turcotte too?) up to play with Lindros? Suddenly, the Tikkanen deal looks far less likely to happen. Olczyk still comes here. Gartner probably never leaves. And I wonder if this team is actually bad enough (*or as the case was, injured enough) to get Roger Neilsen fired and bring Keenan in as both coach and GM. 

 

Now, you're in 93-94.

 

You don't have Beezer. Thus, you don't get Doug Lidster. You can't make the deal that brings Kypreos and Larmer in - you don't have James Patrick anymore, and Darren Turcotte is still here. You can't make the Noonan-Matteau deal - Amonte is gone. You can still make the Glenn Anderson deal, but it is FAR riskier without Kovalev or Larmer in tow. 

 

Now, all of that said - it's Eric Lindros. Lindros and probably adding and keeping or swapping elsewise a lot of youth we offed in side-deals - Weight may never leave. Turcotte may never leave. Marchant may never leave. 

 

Yeah, it fundamentally alters the franchise trajectory, and given what some of those players did elsewhere (specifically Lindros, but also Weight and Marchant) - I think the Rangers probably had a second cup in that team.

 

1) They still would have traded Marchant for MacTavish

2) They still would have traded for Kevin Lowe.

3) Without Amonte, the Rangers could have gotten Matteau or Noonan but not both.

4) Since Keenan really wanted Larmer, he would have made it happen. Probably Turcotte and Phil Bourque.

5) They still would gave gotten Anderson for Gartner.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rangers1994

[LindG1000]

5 hours ago, Rangers1994 said:

 

1) They still would have traded Marchant for MacTavish

2) They still would have traded for Kevin Lowe.

3) Without Amonte, the Rangers could have gotten Matteau or Noonan but not both.

4) Since Keenan really wanted Larmer, he would have made it happen. Probably Turcotte and Phil Bourque.

5) They still would gave gotten Anderson for Gartner.

 

1) Maybe. We don't know that. MacTavish burnished the center depth; that may never have become necessary if you had Lindros. 

2) Probably, but none of the pieces to Quebec were involved in the Lowe trade. 

3) Again, we don't know that. Not having Amonte - even an Amonte having a down year - doesn't necessarily mean we only get one. Maybe it's where Turcotte ends up going in this alternate future, or maybe we end up picking up another deadline guy 

4) Maybe. I think there's a big variable in assuming we'd even get Keenan since getting Lindros likely saves Roger Neilson's job. You're talking about plugging in a 40-goal rookie center over Sergei Nemchinov here. Nemchinov was no slouch - he had 50 points or so - but he wasn't Eric Lindros, and that's +20 goals right there. Huge difference when the team missed the playoffs by all of 8 points. 

5) Maybe. I hate that trade with the fire of a thousand suns. Glenn Anderson stunk for us and the endless strategy of "just get Mark Messier's friends" for a goddamn decade undid years of good work. Gartner was still a good player for a few years post-trade too

[Rangers1994]

8 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

1) Maybe. We don't know that. MacTavish burnished the center depth; that may never have become necessary if you had Lindros. 

2) Probably, but none of the pieces to Quebec were involved in the Lowe trade. 

3) Again, we don't know that. Not having Amonte - even an Amonte having a down year - doesn't necessarily mean we only get one. Maybe it's where Turcotte ends up going in this alternate future, or maybe we end up picking up another deadline guy 

4) Maybe. I think there's a big variable in assuming we'd even get Keenan since getting Lindros likely saves Roger Neilson's job. You're talking about plugging in a 40-goal rookie center over Sergei Nemchinov here. Nemchinov was no slouch - he had 50 points or so - but he wasn't Eric Lindros, and that's +20 goals right there. Huge difference when the team missed the playoffs by all of 8 points. 

5) Maybe. I hate that trade with the fire of a thousand suns. Glenn Anderson stunk for us and the endless strategy of "just get Mark Messier's friends" for a goddamn decade undid years of good work. Gartner was still a good player for a few years post-trade too

 

1) MacTavish was not just a great checking center.  He also brought in a lot of leadership and experience which would have removed more pressure from Lindros and Messier.

2) They definitely would have gotten Lowe since one of the pieces had gone to the Nords.

3) If NYR had traded Turcotte to get Matteau and Noonan, then whom would they have traded to get Larmer?

4) Lindros wouldn't have saved Roger's job.  The division b/w Neilson and Messier was so irreparable that it affected the whole team.  Plus, the injuries to Messier and Leetch further hurt NYR's playoof chances in 1993. So, Keenan's coming to the Rangers was almost inevitable .

5) I thought that the Rangers had offered Doug Weight to the Nords instead of Sergei Nemchinov.

6) Keenan did have a point about Gartner.  He was great during the regular season but not so much during the playoffs.  Anderson was a good trade. 

[RangersIn7]

Everyone is assuming it’s still Keenan at the helm. 
Not a guarantee.

Even with Leetch hurt and Mess and Neilson having their bullshit.

Things could very easily had been different.

Who are we assuming is still on the roster in 92-93?

Assume, Amonte,Nemchinov, Kovalev, Patrick, Beezer.

Plus a 1st and like $15 million in cash, in 1992 dollars, which is 2-3x that now.

 

 

They don’t necessarily trade for MacTavish.

They still need a 4C. 

They still needed another LD in the top-4. But it’s not tied to Kevin Lowe.

They're less likely to trade Weight for Tikk in 92-93, which is a trade they ultimately lost.

They’d have had only Graves and Gartner on the wing, so Turcotte goes for a W.

Again, lots of moving parts.

And it cuts their depth.

Youre adding Lindros.

But you lose 3 top-6 forwards in the process.

Clearly you have Mess, Graves, Lindros, Gartner, as your top-4 forwards.

Then you have Weight. And whomever you bring in for Turcotte. 

You still have Marchant but he’s like 19-20 and not there yet.

 

And not much else upfront.

Guys like Kocur, Broten, Bourque 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by RangersIn7

[Rangers1994]

13 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Everyone is assuming it’s still Keenan at the helm. 
Not a guarantee.

Even with Leetch hurt and Mess and Neilson having their bullshit.

Things could very easily had been different.

Who are we assuming is still on the roster in 92-93?

Assume, Amonte,Nemchinov, Kovalev, Patrick, Beezer.

Plus a 1st and like $15 million in cash, in 1992 dollars, which is 2-3x that now.

 

 

They don’t necessarily trade for MacTavish.

They still need a 4C. 

They still needed another LD in the top-4. But it’s not tied to Kevin Lowe.

They're less likely to trade Weight for Tikk in 92-93, which is a trade they ultimately lost.

They’d have had only Graves and Gartner on the wing, so Turcotte goes for a W.

Again, lots of moving parts.

And it cuts their depth.

Youre adding Lindros.

But you lose 3 top-6 forwards in the process.

Clearly you have Mess, Graves, Lindros, Gartner, as your top-4 forwards.

Then you have Weight. And whomever you bring in for Turcotte. 

You still have Marchant but he’s like 19-20 and not there yet.

 

And not much else upfront.

Guys like Kocur, Broten, Bourque 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Didn't NYR offer Weight instead of Nemchinov?