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No Respect


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Phil
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Kick save and a beauty was awarded the badge 'Great Content' and 1 points.

Guys, sorry for War and Peace but i started this vent and the words just kept on flowing.

 

Do we ever get respect?  Who knows, probably not and I am fine with under the radar.  I think it suits us but it is pretty astonishing to watch week in and week out supposed experts invent different reasons for why what is happening is not really happening.  Ken Daneyko has been one exception to this rule over at NHL.com.  He picked up on our imprevements pretty early on.  Maybe because he lives and works in the area.  Anyhow here is my list of the times (and narratives) of how everyone has gotten it wo wrong all year.

 

Plus it is an off day today. What else is there to do?

 

 

 

  1. The East is just too strong
    Nobody predicted that the Islanders and the Canadiens would miss the playoffs entirely.  Everyone knew the the East was loaded but preseason evaluations was that it was even stronger.  Everyone thought Montreal would not be as good as they were last year, but no one had the EC finalists missing out on the post season entirely this year.  Most thought (including me) that two young teams, the Devils and the Rangers would be in the WC chase conversations for most of the year and that would be progress for a young team.
     
  2. Underestimated this team’s ability to contend quickly (everyone)
    Most people praised the new coaching hire and the roster changes intended to bring in some experience and toughness, but I am not sure how many people thought that the new make up of the team was a recipe for success this year.  If you followed the power rankings all year long (as I did) you would know that the Rangers were consistently ranked far, far below teams that they were far above in the standings.  In other words the “wise men” of the NHL were telling us to not believe our eyes and that we were really not as good as our record said we were.

    This was simply a case of Analysts not being willing to revise their initial opinions based on what was happening on the ice and searching around for any excuse to support why they were really correct all along.  Trust me and not the standings!
     
  3. It is all just Igor Shesterkin who is stealing us games
    This "narrative" has lasted to one degree or another all season long.  Even now.  The problem is that it completely fails to notice the other changes that were happening for this team throughout the year.  Fast forward to the January time frame and the Rangers did not fall off a cliff in the standings.  In fact, we were hovering around the #1 overall spot in the NHL for a while before Florida stretched out their lead.  It was at this point that almost overnight every expert came to the same conclusions.  1) That the Rangers were still not a good team but rather a bad one with some luck and an all-planet Goalkeeper, and 2) that we could not beat the good teams (we will get to that one next)

    By January we were already beginning to settle in to enjoying improvements in front of Igor even though these changes we all but invisible to the expert community.  The blue line make up was better and, more importantly the team defense being played by the Rangers forwards was already different from the beginning of the year.  Analysts were yet again searching for reasons why their initial analysis was correct and completely missing out on the evolution that was taking place with the Rangers.
     
  4. Rangers cannot beat good teams
    In other words the Rangers record is fake, and it does not bode well for the Rangers in the playoffs when they will be playing other good teams.  We give up too many high value chances in front of Igor and all our points had pretty much come against bad teams.  When we played good teams, we were not even a playoff caliber team.

    While this may have been true to some degree at the very start of the year, we actually started to beat (and beat up on) good teams in this time frame.  Analysts kept on repeating this “wisdom” all the way through until the end of the year, WAY after it was clearly not true anymore
     
  5. NHL “Wise men" completely missed the blue line getting better and the improvement in overall team defense getting MUCH better
    This team evolved and changed a lot during the year as they adapted to what the coaching staff was asking them to do.  Not limited to these players but Miller, Lindgren, Schneider were all significantly different by mid-season and different again by year end compared to where they were at the start of the year.  All of this was invisible to the smart analysts over at the NHL
     
  6. NHL “Wise men” overvalued the TDL acquisitions as a way to explain why we were all of a sudden a team that could be in the conversation (and why they were right all along)
    NHL analysts saved by the trade deadline!   Having spent all year downplaying the Rangers and the Rangers chances to be really good this year, the NHL analyst community massively endorsed the moved the Drury made at the TDL

    I know we ere are all happy (read ecstatic) with the players we picked up at the deadline but the team was already pretty damned good even before this moves.  The new conventional wisdom in analyst-land was now that we were a legitimate playoff team albeit one that could not really be mentioned in the same breath as the Elite teams in the east (Florida, Carolina, Tampa and Toronto) let alone the best teams in the West.
     
  7. Playoff hockey – A dog in every series
    Against the Pens we were underdogs to the Penguins because that was a more experienced team over there and we were just a bunch of babies after all.  After the series we won it because we were facing a backup goaltender.  That and Crosby was injured for much of the series.  In other words we got lucky.

    Fast forward to Carolina.  We won because we faced a backup goalie and I saw several post-series analyses that literally posed the question would the result be the same if we were playing Freddie Anderson? The answer was no.  So once again we got lucky to be playing a backup goalie and watch out we will not get so lucky again against the mighty Tampa Bay

    "Rest vs Rust".  We crush the bolts in game 1 and the reason (excuse) being offered up this morning is that once again we got lucky to enjoy the whole “Rest vs. Rust” differential.  You cannot make this stuff up.  Yes they say the Rangers played well but Tampa has another gear at least and we will be seeing that in game #2.

    If we win again of Friday I wonder excuse will be used this time?

 

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A lot of is just anti-NYC bias and the media just feeds it to the people anymore. I really don't care what the talking heads at ESPN or TNT or anywhere are saying. Just going by the eye test to the regular NHL fan, you can see what this team is all about. The 'all Igor' narrative was accurate for the first two or three months of the season, but since then they really got better defensively and rounded into form. They could still be better in that area, but there was a large stretch of games where they made Igor's job a little bit easier.

 

Other than that, it's like these people haven't even been paying attention or are just totally naive. They got even better at the trade deadline, getting guys who have fit like a glove here. Overall, I just don't see how you can talk shit about this team where they play hard, they battle, they come back, they're physical and they're just really fun to watch offensively. It's just grasping and straws, the nitpicks, and again feeding the anti New York crap.

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First off - I fuckin love it when folks do this. Thanks for an awesome post.

 

I don't care if this team gets the respect of the NHL world. It doesn't matter. We weren't supposed to be here yet. Our analytics were shit. We hit backs-against-the-wall four games into the playoffs. If we knock off the Lightning, we'll hear all the reasons why we can't beat Colorado or Edmonton. And if we hoist the hardware, all we'll hear about is how we were a flash in the pan who caught lightning in a bottle and really pulled this off far earlier than we should have. 

 

There's also a weird element of us being the spoilers pissing in the punchbowl right now. The NHL is this close to having a team going for a dynasty facing a team that's been pegged for greatness for a few years now. We're the guys standing in the way. And hey, that it's New York is a great secondary story.

 

The fact of the matter is that good teams find ways to win, and the Rangers seem to find endless ways to win. So, fuck it. We're here, let's win some games and rub some noses in shit.

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3 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

First off - I fuckin love it when folks do this. Thanks for an awesome post.

 

I don't care if this team gets the respect of the NHL world. It doesn't matter. We weren't supposed to be here yet. Our analytics were shit. We hit backs-against-the-wall four games into the playoffs. If we knock off the Lightning, we'll hear all the reasons why we can't beat Colorado or Edmonton. And if we hoist the hardware, all we'll hear about is how we were a flash in the pan who caught lightning in a bottle and really pulled this off far earlier than we should have. 

 

There's also a weird element of us being the spoilers pissing in the punchbowl right now. The NHL is this close to having a team going for a dynasty facing a team that's been pegged for greatness for a few years now. We're the guys standing in the way. And hey, that it's New York is a great secondary story.

 

The fact of the matter is that good teams find ways to win, and the Rangers seem to find endless ways to win. So, fuck it. We're here, let's win some games and rub some noses in shit.

One of the ESPN guys actually said it last night, that the Rangers are ahead of schedule as far as being a top tier team goes. Ya think?

Edited by Sharpshooter
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Fuck these so-called "experts".

 

I said it last night in the GDT thread..."We're all in this together".  We don't need these fucking announcers to tell us what this team can/can't do!  We've watched every second of this team ALL YEAR!!  Now these pecker-heads are going to tell us how good Igor is, or how the kids are "surprising everyone"??  ....or how we don't match up well against any other playoff team because of (insert reason here)??

 

Make no mistake fellas, we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg here!  The core of this team is going to be around for a LONG fucking time, and these experts are going to have to kiss our ass in Macy's window for a lot of years, so they better not dig their graves too deeply with the bullshit they spew!

 

...and no matter what happens the rest of the way, this team has now firmly planted their flag in the rectal region of the NHL as one of the ELITE teams in the league.  You best take these guys seriously, or they're going to lift that silver chalice, and stick it right up all their asses!

 

We know what we have here, fellas.  We don't need any expert's approval!  Fuck 'em!

 

 

 

 

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I mean it's really all about #3. It's all Igor. You can't argue with the stats. They are out-chanced almost every game, most of the time by a wide margin, and their xGF was one of the lowest throughout the playoffs. 

 

It's Igor, and timely powerplay goals, or we'd have been knocked out of the first round.

 

There's nothing wrong with it now we're in the post season and it's a race to 16 wins, so I don't much care how the Rangers get them. I never thought they'd get this far with that formula, but here we are.

 

It's largely the reason I keep saying stop talking about the off-season...Very good chance this team is a good bit worse next season. So just enjoy this ride and worry about the off season in the off season.

Edited by Pete
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15 minutes ago, Pete said:

I mean it's really all about #3. It's all Igor. You can't argue with the stats. They are out-chanced almost every game, most of the time by a wide margin, and their xGF was one of the lowest throughout the playoffs. 

 

It's Igor, and timely powerplay goals, or we'd have been knocked out of the first round.

 

There's nothing wrong with it now we're in the post season and it's a race to 16 wins, so I don't much care how the Rangers get them. I never thought they'd get this far with that formula, but here we are.

 

It's largely the reason I keep saying stop talking about the off-season...Very good chance this team is a good bit worse next season. So just enjoy this ride and worry about the off season in the off season.

 

It should be said that it became less about Igor as the season went on, especially after January and by the trade deadline when the team's margins began to significantly balance, but it never stopped being about him. He is absolutely key to this, and that's perfectly fine. Goalies are part of teams, too, and they shouldn't apologize for having a great one. Or a great PP, for that matter.

 

Like you said, just enjoy the ride.

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As i said i understand the benefits of the underdog no bandwagon position.  I welcome it in fact.  The thread is more about the herd mentality in the analyst community and my astonishment at the pretzels of tortured "logic" that they are collectively able to twist themselves into rather than concede that they may have been mistaken on this one all along.

 

The Rangers have been a good team almost from the get go and all year long but admitting the obvious clearly sticks in the craw of some people who make a living being well.... experts.

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23 minutes ago, Kick save and a beauty said:

As i said i understand the benefits of the underdog no bandwagon position.  I welcome it in fact.  The thread is more about the herd mentality in the analyst community and my astonishment at the pretzels of tortured "logic" that they are collectively able to twist themselves into rather than concede that they may have been mistaken on this one all along.

 

The Rangers have been a good team almost from the get go and all year long but admitting the obvious clearly sticks in the craw of some people who make a living being well.... experts.

 

I don't mean to attempt to boil your argument down to a singularity, but if we were to, to me, that issue — which I agree with your assessment of — is pretty easily diagnosed. These folks live for large sample sizes, because the larger the sample, the more plot points, and the more plot points, the richer the estimation. The problem is, the NHL exists in a duality. The 82-game regular season gives them exactly this. The sprint of the playoffs largely doesn't. A team that plays a maximum number of games would still only end up playing 28 games — approximately 35% of the length of the regular season.

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32 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I don't mean to attempt to boil your argument down to a singularity, but if we were to, to me, that issue — which I agree with your assessment of — is pretty easily diagnosed. These folks live for large sample sizes, because the larger the sample, the more plot points, and the more plot points, the richer the estimation. The problem is, the NHL exists in a duality. The 82-game regular season gives them exactly this. The sprint of the playoffs largely doesn't. A team that plays a maximum number of games would still only end up playing 28 games — approximately 35% of the length of the regular season.


Yeah, but a team in November ain’t the same as a team come March. The stats might no longer apply. Full season stats become worthless. They aren’t applying them correctly.

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This is partly why I take analytics with a grain of salt sometimes, especially come playoff time. While I do agree that there is a place in sports for advanced stats, they need to be used in conjunction with other things rather than being the foundation of an argument played by human being. 
 

most of our “no respect” comes from the shouting of “look at stats x, y, or z! There  is no way they can keep this up” style arguments and I think that does an extremely disservice from the guys on this roster specifically. Its not all one person. It’s just not. It’s a very good roster that was bolstered at the trade deadline to perform in these exact games we are playing right now. 

Edited by Keirik
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1 hour ago, Kick save and a beauty said:

As i said i understand the benefits of the underdog no bandwagon position.  I welcome it in fact.  The thread is more about the herd mentality in the analyst community and my astonishment at the pretzels of tortured "logic" that they are collectively able to twist themselves into rather than concede that they may have been mistaken on this one all along.

 

The Rangers have been a good team almost from the get go and all year long but admitting the obvious clearly sticks in the craw of some people who make a living being well.... experts.

I mean... They aren't wrong. They've been right about everything except the situation being unsustainable... So far it's been a winning playoff formula, with a dose of good fortune. 

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1 minute ago, Pete said:

I mean... They aren't wrong. They've been right about everything except the situation being unsustainable... So far it's been a winning playoff formula, with a dose of good fortune. 

The arguments were not wrong as much as they were incomplete.  They basically missed the improvement in out defensive play from nearly half the season because the Igor narrative was so supportive of their going in positions.

 

How hard is it to say that yes, the goaltending has been great but there have also been other changes going on with this team too? Those began way before the TDL  Personally i think Millar tightening up his game and the emergence of Schenider were major developments.  Not as sexy as Igor but nevertheless.

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26 minutes ago, rmc51 said:


Yeah, but a team in November ain’t the same as a team come March. The stats might no longer apply. Full season stats become worthless. They aren’t applying them correctly.

 

It's not that they don't apply, it's that they're less applicable because the nature of the "second" season is a rush tournament to 16 wins, not a marathon 82-game season where teams flat out don't play half as hard in November and December.

 

There's a downside to this, too. Sometimes a guy "breaks out" big time and ends up signing a huge contract he can't live up to come the next regular season (Ville Leino), but for me personally, I care very little about the analytics the moment the calendar rolls over from regular season to playoffs.

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10 minutes ago, Pete said:

I mean... They aren't wrong. They've been right about everything except the situation being unsustainable... So far it's been a winning playoff formula, with a dose of good fortune. 

 

Right. And that's something we should probably separate more — the data is the data. The numbers don't lie. But the conclusions we draw from what those numbers indicate can (and have, to some degree).

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44 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

It's not that they don't apply, it's that they're less applicable because the nature of the "second" season is a rush tournament to 16 wins, not a marathon 82-game season where teams flat out don't play half as hard in November and December.

 

There's a downside to this, too. Sometimes a guy "breaks out" big time and ends up signing a huge contract he can't live up to come the next regular season (Ville Leino), but for me personally, I care very little about the analytics the moment the calendar rolls over from regular season to playoffs.


I’m not sure what you mean. Why are they applicable in any capacity what the team Corsi was between October-December when determining whether they might have playoff success? When we look at the full 82 game sample size, that might account for close to half of the full season picture which is what is being used by stat nerds to predict playoff matchups. Yet the team is very clearly much different than back then. Wouldn’t the more accurate way to predict playoff performance be to look at more recent slices of data? How’s the team been playing last couple of months? What’s their strength of schedule looked like? Etc.

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1 hour ago, Kick save and a beauty said:

The arguments were not wrong as much as they were incomplete.  They basically missed the improvement in out defensive play from nearly half the season because the Igor narrative was so supportive of their going in positions.

 

How hard is it to say that yes, the goaltending has been great but there have also been other changes going on with this team too? Those began way before the TDL  Personally i think Millar tightening up his game and the emergence of Schenider were major developments.  Not as sexy as Igor but nevertheless.

I mean the numbers don't support your narrative. They get outshot regularly. There hasn't been a real improvement in team defense. It's just Igor. 

 

Miller has been great but that's just a nice side note. Schneider plays like 10 mins a game... 

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Good post and yeah we get no respect and I actually love it. We don't have "the best" player in the league. We don't have Ovi or Crosby or McDavid or McKinnon so national hockey media don't really give a shit. They celebrate players over teams. That's why their takes are lazy. 

 

Connor McDavid and Nate McKinnon are great, but no matter who comes out of the East, the East has my pick to win the cup because neither of the western teams can keep the puck out of their net.

 

 

 

 

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