confirmed: Islanders Reacquire F Matt Martin from Leafs for G Eamon McAdam

[Phil]

I don't think that's entirely true. What we had was a marshmallow coach, whose Gospel of Matthew adherence neutered otherwise physical presence players like Kreider and Smith to appear unlike themselves. Quinn wants to be "in the opposition's faces." I'm pretty sure the choke collars are getting clipped and players like Kreider, Smith, and probably Beleskey, are going to be told "do what need be done."

[phillyb]

I'm happy we didn't give a prospect for Matt Martin.

[Shane Falco]

Do we? We still don't know what the opening night roster will look like. All we know for sure is AV and his stand down approach is gone. Howden and Andersson are both hard nosed leaders. One of them has a good shot to make the team. Young are not I bet the team won't be as 'soft' as AV's teams...

 

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I don't think that's entirely true. What we had was a marshmallow coach, whose Gospel of Matthew adherence neutered otherwise physical presence players like Kreider and Smith to appear unlike themselves. Quinn wants to be "in the opposition's faces." I'm pretty sure the choke collars are getting clipped and players like Kreider, Smith, and probably Beleskey, are going to be told "do what need be done."

 

Hope you both are right.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I don't think that's entirely true. What we had was a marshmallow coach, whose Gospel of Matthew adherence neutered otherwise physical presence players like Kreider and Smith to appear unlike themselves. Quinn wants to be "in the opposition's faces." I'm pretty sure the choke collars are getting clipped and players like Kreider, Smith, and probably Beleskey, are going to be told "do what need be done."

 

Please let this be true. Cant wait to watch Kreider without AV's bullshit "rules".

[Giacomin]

It's a rebuild. Cheer effort. And losses.

 

Cheer losses?!? Phil, can you explain this? Better, can you rethink this?

 

Are you advocating that you and all the thousands of Ranger fans [particularly all of us who read what you write here and elsewhere] watching at MSG or at home, cheer each goal against? And ultimately cheer each loss?

 

The season hasn't started. It's hard to understand how a fan, player, coach, GM is really supposed to change their wiring (mindset, instincts and competitiveness) and actually cheer for bad things to happen on the ice for 82 games. All while hoping we have a good coach, our young vets are improving and our kids are talented and developing? Can the Rangers actually build team chemistry and a winning playing style, while racking up loss after loss?

 

If your explanation is that we should cheer for losses right out the gate for at best a 16% chance at Hughes, then all you are advocating is gambling. With atrocious odds, no less. If it is just for better draft positioning, think about this. Had we won the 3rd slot in the draft or fell to 11, we still would have drafted Kravtsov. That is how little W-L record impacted the draft.

 

Now that we've added new players, youth and picks we begin the process of getting better. Expect losing, but don't hope and root for a constant barrage of bad things to happen to the team, coaches and individuals in order to be the league's worst team. That sounds like a horrible existence and risky path to success.

 

Think about it this way. If your son is interested in hockey and a fan of the Rangers, do you sit him down in October and teach him to start rooting for losing?

[Giacomin]

A more reasonable stance would expect a non-playoff year, but hope to see marked improvement across the board in all aspects of the org. Just don't make moves or decisions that hurt the future. No compromising the team 2-3 years from now, bring in as much upside potential as possible.

 

So far, by signing the only non-overpaid UFA, we are doing great. If we suck, we'll suck. No need to cheer for it. Sure, if we are God-awful and vying for a top pick late in the season, it's understandable to root for a shot at a star. But that's about the extent of it.

[siddious]

As far as I?m concerned we?re going for Hughes next season.

 

And I?m rooting for Tampa in the playoffs.

 

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[SaveByRichter35]

I'm with Phil. I am hoping for one more season of mediocrity to help build for the next decade. I don't know that I would go as far as hoping they lose, but, I sure won't complain. I most definitely will hope they lose to certain teams, notably those closest to them in the standings.

[Giacomin]

I'm with Phil. I am hoping for one more season of mediocrity to help build for the next decade. I don't know that I would go as far as hoping they lose, but, I sure won't complain. I most definitely will hope they lose to certain teams, notably those closest to them in the standings.

 

Well So Nashty wants the leagues worst record for about a 16% chance at Hughes, assuming he doesn't blowout his knee. A total tank job. Asking for mediocrity, you sound like you just want another good draft. Hard to argue with that. I'm not sure where Phil stands, maybe I'm holding out hope that he'll rethink cheering for mounting losses right out of the gate.

 

I hope for a Vegas like season, but expect we'll be out of the playoff hunt pretty early and mgmt will respond accordingly.

 

Yet, I want to see everyone play well and improve. For talent to emerge, team chemistry to develop and a solid winning system that can adapt and thrive against other good systems deployed by playoff teams.

 

That doesn't mean vodka or I don't want us to draft well, or that we want to trade away good picks or prospects. Or that we shouldn't sell older vets for promising youth. Or be sellers at the deadline.

 

If Phil gets to cheer for Tampa to lose the ECF when a 1st rounder is on the line under the assumption that it wasn't going to be a top 10 pick (notice we gave up a mid 2nd just to move from #26 to #22), we get to cheer for the Rangers to play well and improve from that shitshow last year.

 

Like you, I'm not going to whine about a good draft slot if we suck. But if we suck, we'll suck. I don't need to make that the prime directive, goal and focus of my 2018-19 Ranger season. Mgmt is not making a total tank job their plan. Coaches and players better not be. Why should we fans put much energy, hope and discussion into it now?

 

More relevant is assessing what we have, see who is getting better and not mortgaging any future assets.

[SaveByRichter35]

Well So Nashty wants the leagues worst record for about a 16% chance at Hughes, assuming he doesn't blowout his knee. A total tank job. Asking for mediocrity, you sound like you just want another good draft. Hard to argue with that. I'm not sure where Phil stands, maybe I'm holding out hope that he'll rethink cheering for mounting losses right out of the gate.

 

I hope for a Vegas like season, but expect we'll be out of the playoff hunt pretty early and mgmt will respond accordingly.

 

Yet, I want to see everyone play well and improve. For talent to emerge, team chemistry to develop and a solid winning system that can adapt and thrive against other good systems deployed by playoff teams.

 

That doesn't mean vodka or I don't want us to draft well, or that we want to trade away good picks or prospects. Or that we shouldn't sell older vets for promising youth. Or be sellers at the deadline.

 

If Phil gets to cheer for Tampa to lose the ECF when a 1st rounder is on the line under the assumption that it wasn't going to be a top 10 pick (notice we gave up a mid 2nd just to move from #26 to #22), we get to cheer for the Rangers to play well and improve from that shitshow last year.

 

Like you, I'm not going to whine about a good draft slot if we suck. But if we suck, we'll suck. I don't need to make that the prime directive, goal and focus of my 2018-19 Ranger season. Mgmt is not making a total tank job their plan. Coaches and players better not be. Why should we fans put much energy, hope and discussion into it now?

 

More relevant is assessing what we have, see who is getting better and not mortgaging any future assets.

 

Yea no. I do not want to be anywhere close to the playoffs. The last thing I want is a Vegas like season and flame out in the Final. Fuck that. I will be happy with last place in the league and a 16% better chance to draft number one. I want to see everyone play well and grow, just not win too many games. 2 bad seasons to ensure another 10-12 good years is fine with me.

[Long live the King]

Yea no. I do not want to be anywhere close to the playoffs. The last thing I want is a Vegas like season and flame out in the Final. Fuck that. I will be happy with last place in the league and a 16% better chance to draft number one. I want to see everyone play well and grow, just not win too many games. 2 bad seasons to ensure another 10-12 good years is fine with me.

 

Hell of a gamble. Ton of examples showing how unlikely it is to work out, but I don't feel like posting it again.

[SaveByRichter35]

Awesome

[Long live the King]

Totally

[Giacomin]

I just don't think the chance is worth purposely sabotaging the roster or making it some effective strategy (since the lottery went to 15) to pursue to win a Cup. Mgmt must reasonably facilitate the opportunity for the coaches and players to best develop their system, fundamentals, skills, talents, chemistry and winning attitudes. Lias and Chytil are not going to grow optimally if they are saddled with crappy linemates, for instance. A team needs to learn how to win hockey games and see some results from the right efforts.

 

Just not realistic to want guys and the team to be better, yet finish last overall. If guys play well, they will increase their trade value. It would seem a better gamble is put Zuc, Vesey, Spoons, etc in a position to succeed and then Zuc gets you a 1st at the deadline. Others return value too. Put the kids in a position to succeed and their confidence grows and they become threats. The team establishes a direction, a new core and some chemistry.

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

I SAY:

 

GO RANGERS!!

[Phil]

Cheer losses?!? Phil, can you explain this? Better, can you rethink this?

 

Are you advocating that you and all the thousands of Ranger fans [particularly all of us who read what you write here and elsewhere] watching at MSG or at home, cheer each goal against? And ultimately cheer each loss?

 

The season hasn't started. It's hard to understand how a fan, player, coach, GM is really supposed to change their wiring (mindset, instincts and competitiveness) and actually cheer for bad things to happen on the ice for 82 games. All while hoping we have a good coach, our young vets are improving and our kids are talented and developing? Can the Rangers actually build team chemistry and a winning playing style, while racking up loss after loss?

 

If your explanation is that we should cheer for losses right out the gate for at best a 16% chance at Hughes, then all you are advocating is gambling. With atrocious odds, no less. If it is just for better draft positioning, think about this. Had we won the 3rd slot in the draft or fell to 11, we still would have drafted Kravtsov. That is how little W-L record impacted the draft.

 

Now that we've added new players, youth and picks we begin the process of getting better. Expect losing, but don't hope and root for a constant barrage of bad things to happen to the team, coaches and individuals in order to be the league's worst team. That sounds like a horrible existence and risky path to success.

 

Think about it this way. If your son is interested in hockey and a fan of the Rangers, do you sit him down in October and teach him to start rooting for losing?

 

I don't need to clarify what I said. It was perfectly succinct.

 

But I'll try an even more terse version: cheer for better efforts, hope for a lottery pick.

 

 

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[Giacomin]

I don't need to clarify what I said. It was perfectly succinct.

 

But I'll try an even more terse version: cheer for better efforts, hope for a lottery pick.

 

It was precisely your succinctness that led to the invitation to discuss and explain your thinking, with considerations to specific realities. I thought this subject and your opinion deserved more discussion. Is there a better place to engage smart fans like you on this, than your discussion forum? Apparently, you took it another way and would rather not elaborate on some of the considerations mentioned.

[Phil]

It was precisely your succinctness that led to the invitation to discuss and explain your thinking, with considerations to specific realities. I thought this subject and your opinion deserved more discussion. Is there a better place to engage smart fans like you on this, than your discussion forum? Apparently, you took it another way and would rather not elaborate on some of the considerations mentioned.

 

It's self-explanatory. But since you want me to over explain, fine:

 

I expect to see better effort on the ice this season and next. More physical. More in your face. Better driving to the net, and better response to not having the puck (no more peeling off and giving up volume chances against to spring odd man rushes the other way). I want relentless puck pursuits and relentless forecheck.

 

I also want them to lose more than they win because for all they've done right regarding this rebuild, they still have, maybe, one game-breaking talent on the way (Kravtsov). They need more. They need Jack Hughes. Given how unlikely it is they'll be a playoff team this season, especially if they trade Zuccarello and/or Spooner, I want them to embrace the tank on a short-term plan to inject the roster with high-end talent. And I mean high. As in taken in the top-five, if not top-three, or the draft. If they can do that this season, they can go into the following maybe being a playoff team, but probably still one year away from contention, similar to the Leafs. Tap free agency and trades and boom ? 2020/2021 Cup contender.

 

I didn't think this needed to be spelled out, but does this sufficiently answer your question? Oh. And no, I'm not rethinking it. This is, mathematically speaking, the most likely route to building a quality contender with balance throughout. Nearly every Cup winning team proves it, to varying degrees.

 

 

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[Giacomin]

It's self-explanatory. But since you want me to over explain, fine:

 

I expect to see better effort on the ice this season and next. More physical. More in your face. Better driving to the net, and better response to not having the puck (no more peeling off and giving up volume chances against to spring odd man rushes the other way). I want relentless puck pursuits and relentless forecheck.

 

I also want them to lose more than they win because for all they've done right regarding this rebuild, they still have, maybe, one game-breaking talent on the way (Kravtsov). They need more. They need Jack Hughes. Given how unlikely it is they'll be a playoff team this season, especially if they trade Zuccarello and/or Spooner, I want them to embrace the tank on a short-term plan to inject the roster with high-end talent. And I mean high. As in taken in the top-five, if not top-three, or the draft. If they can do that this season, they can go into the following maybe being a playoff team, but probably still one year away from contention, similar to the Leafs. Tap free agency and trades and boom — 2020/2021 Cup contender.

 

I didn't think this needed to be spelled out, but does this sufficiently answer your question? Oh. And no, I'm not rethinking it. This is, mathematically speaking, the most likely route to building a quality contender with balance throughout. Nearly every Cup winning team proves it, to varying degrees.

Appreciate you taking the time. Didn't want to eat up your time on the self-explanatory. It is the deeper more interesting issues regarding a total tank, that I'm curious if people consider. Here's a list. Not trying to suck you into a long debate or anything like it.

 

1. Is it really a viable/good strategy? Even the worst record only gets 16% odds for #1, most likely #4 (at 50%). The odds weren't remote like this for Pitt or Chicago or Wash. Having the worst record is tough to do and trying for it is a gamble.

 

2. If we are atrocious, slot #3 is still a longshot and would be good fortune. This year, a great draft, we choose the same prospect at #3, #6, #9, or #11. How much does it really matter to the Rangers?

 

3. With odds so low, is it really worth the pain for all? What about the concerning lack of progress and lack of individual and coaching successes it would mean? Is it worth your time to cheer for that? Is it worth the negativity, bad vibe, unintended consequences for a questionable return?

 

4. Is this really Ranger mgmt's plan? They say no. So if we are not trying to tank, isn't it a bad sign if our team is horrific? Isn't it foreboding to know we assessed our talent so inaccurately? Aren't the fans rooting for an immediate tank in conflict with our mgmt, coaches and players approach? This seems different than Toronto (where fans and mgmt were on the same page) and the rules were different.

 

5. Is losing more than most any other team good for our players and coaches? Does losing breed losing? How much does it effect confidence long term or impact certain individuals?

 

6. If guys play well (which should result in more wins than you want) doesn't that give us something to build from and bode well? Doesn't it improve some of our assets trade value?

 

7. Is it even sporting?

 

8. Love Hughes, agree he would really launch us. A #1 OA should do that. Yet, might other great players be found outside the Top 10. Plenty of guys who are their team's most valuable asset currently:

 

Guys like Kuz at #26, or at #16 there's Barzal and Tarasenko. #15 for Karlsson. #11 for Kopitar and Forsberg. #38 for Josi. #46 for Subban. #22 for Giroux. #58 for Kucherov. #158 for Benn. #20 for Burns. #25 for Paternck. #45 for Bergeron #30 for Rakell.

 

Let alone all stars or budding stars that went in the 3rd round or beyond like Gaudreau, Ghost, Klingberg, Guentzal, Point, Trochek, Yandle, Letang, Marchand, Pavelski, Panarin

[Drew a Penalty]

The lottery is even more incentive to gamble. You don't need to finish dead last to potentially win big.

[Future]

It's too early to talk about the lottery.

 

Hope that the team plays hard and lays some foundation and *culture* to build upon. Think the Renney Rangers.

[Long live the King]

Team: Play hard, improve over the course of the season

 

Fans: If ^^ happens, accept the result win or loss