[brooks] Hayes or Zibanejad: Which Should the Rangers Trade?

[Pete]

People are blowing Z's concussions out of proportion. It's not like he returned and was a shell like Nash.

 

Yes it took him time to get his rythm back while the team was hot trash but he ended season on fire.

[torontonyr]

People are blowing Z's concussions out of proportion. It's not like he returned and was a shell like Nash.

 

Yes it took him time to get his rythm back while the team was hot trash but he ended season on fire.

 

This.

[Future]

People are blowing Z's concussions out of proportion. It's not like he returned and was a shell like Nash.

 

Yes it took him time to get his rythm back while the team was hot trash but he ended season on fire.

Eh, he was streaky like he's always been. Over his last 30 games:

 

12 games - 3G, 0A, -14

11 games - 10G, 5A, +7

7 games - 0G, 1A, -9

 

With the roster surrounding him there's variance, but he was inconsistent through the end of the year.

[Ozzy]

I'm with ya Giac...absolutely. The thing is I keep seeing the whole underlying theme of "we're trying to improve this year's team"; which I agree with, simply in different manner of theory. The point I guess I'm not expressing is that I get we're trying to improve, but this year is the first stepping stone type year where, we're not going to be a good team by any stretch, and bringing in players to "improve" the team is actually hurting our rebuild in 2 ways:

 

1. They actually do improve the team and god forbid we make the playoffs it significantly drops us in the draft order for next year.

2. These older or experienced players will eat up roster spots that should be taken by younger players that we're trying to figure out whether they have a future here or not.

 

Giac, you know me man...I'm as big a Ranger sick freak as anyone LOL.....but I've bought into the fact that we're going to have to eat a gigantic bowl of shit for 3 years before we start to see this franchise rise from the ashes of what Sather did to this system. I'd rather us rebuild this thing from zero, and let the kids dictate where we go from there.

 

I just think all these high priced free agents and so called "experienced" players guys wanna bring in are a significant deterrent to what this team needs to accomplish in order to get this thing back where it belongs. But you're right man, the Rangers have NEVER done this correctly! So I know what I'm looking for them to do is most likely a pipe dream that will get derailed as soon as they see they "have a chance to make the playoffs".

 

I can just see it now; {Dream sequence}

It's February 24th, and we just won 4 games in a row....

Hank has just stopped 1506 shots in a row

The team has scored like they're going to the electric chair

We've gotten contributions from a lot of the kids and they're "starting to come of age so suddenly"

 

....enter the trade deadline

 

I can just see Gorton trading away every prospect and draft pick, with Dolan holding a gun to his head, just to bring in the next Marcel Dionne or Milan Lucic or whoever, and the rebuild get shit canned. We get ousted in the first round 4-1 and we're right back in the same shit house as every other year.

 

I just think we have to think differently going forward, and now's the perfect time. The season I believe we really should be focused on is 2021-2022....

 

The only things I think we should be looking at in the next 2-3 years is how to compile as many "darts" as Franny likes to say (Draft picks), and young talented players to rebuild this team into a perennial powerhouse. It can be done very easily, because there are so many teams out there right now who are so close to winning that they will most definitely mortgage their future to get to that promised land....and we have experienced player that they can certainly use.

 

What it takes is what the Rangers have proven time and time again that they don't have: Patience....

 

...and a lot of our fellow fans aren't patient either, but we're gonna have to suck it up and be bad for a while....until we get this shit fixed. It's been broken for quite some time, and it's that 10,000 lb elephant in the middle of the room. Quite simply I think just going by our track record, we're not doing it right; One cup in how many years?

 

Yeah, there's gotta be a better way. Just my thoughts dude. I wanna see a winner just as bad as anybody but it's time to grab the bull by the balls and do this thing the right way. Right now I look at this franchise as the example of "what NOT to do". That shit's gotta change in my opinion.

[Pete]

Eh, he was streaky like he's always been. Over his last 30 games:

 

12 games - 3G, 0A, -14

11 games - 10G, 5A, +7

7 games - 0G, 1A, -9

 

With the roster surrounding him there's variance, but he was inconsistent through the end of the year.

Nothing to be gleaned from last 10 games, honestly. Team was on autopilot and playing guys like Spooner and rookies to see what they had.

 

As said, lit up Worlds.

[Giacomin]

Z is the bomb, underrated. When he is playing his game his linemates (who at times were playing real well) could not keep up or understand the level he is thinking the game. Kreids really got it, once back from his clot. If we had a RW 2 way point getter like Stone to add to that top line, they'd matchup with anybody.

 

If he can avoid concussions, he is core to the future. Let's hope he can.

[Long live the King]

Eh, he was streaky like he's always been. Over his last 30 games:

 

12 games - 3G, 0A, -14

11 games - 10G, 5A, +7

7 games - 0G, 1A, -9

 

With the roster surrounding him there's variance, but he was inconsistent through the end of the year.

 

It's easy to break up his season however you want into small sample sizes....

 

He also had 11G, 11A for 22 points in the first 24 games (.92) before missing about 3 weeks. Then only 9 points in if first 30 games (.3) back from injury. But finished the year with 16 points in the last 18 games (.89) and went on to have a strong performance at the World's.

 

Similar to the prior year. 15 points in 19 games (.79). Injury. 9 points in first 20 games (.45) back. 13 points in last 17 games (.77) and 9 points in 12 playoff games.

 

All together, if you remove the 2 segments of games coming off an injury, he's put up 66 points in 78 games. And the numbers last year were better than the year before. If he stays healthy there's no reason he doesn't top 70 points.

[Future]

It's easy to break up his season however you want into small sample sizes....

 

He also had 11G, 11A for 22 points in the first 24 games (.92) before missing about 3 weeks. Then only 9 points in if first 30 games (.3) back from injury. But finished the year with 16 points in the last 18 games (.89) and went on to have a strong performance at the World's.

 

Similar to the prior year. 15 points in 19 games (.79). Injury. 9 points in first 20 games (.45) back. 13 points in last 17 games (.77) and 9 points in 12 playoff games.

 

All together, if you remove the 2 segments of games coming off an injury, he's put up 66 points in 78 games. And the numbers last year were better than the year before. If he stays healthy there's no reason he doesn't top 70 points.

I know - I think he's a 70-point player. I was just responding to the comment about how he ended the season and 30 games is a round number lol

[lefty9]

not even close ,Z

[Respecttheblue]

Blue my friend, see my post above and consider that Gorton should have some flexibility in assessing how the rebuild is going, who we are selling, when and who we are keeping and for how long. The coach will have a say in where guys play and when and how good they are performing on all levels. Therefore, just not dumping our vets plus rolling with a bunch of kids in their early 20's means we are not going with a lineup of 18/19 year olds.

 

We are getting too literal, dissecting every word and desire instead of understanding the big picture. Simply, we are not tearing it down and completely starting over. But we are willing to load up on young guys who we can develop and be cost-controlled here for years. All the while going into the season with the ability to ice a lineup that doesn't force all the kids to NY, or too far up the lineup, too soon.

 

We can't trade everyone before the season. We are better off finding a few good targets and see if they are available. Otherwise, remain opportunistic and talk to GMs. If one or more of our RFAs and vets like Zuc or Shatty can bring what we want in return, then we can make a move. No point in just hanging a for sale, clearance items, sign on our door.

 

Now what we do in January to the trade deadline is a different agenda. We will have assessed the players and the team. Thus we can move forward accordingly. Dump players for 1st rounders or top prospects, where it makes sense.

 

I am in complete agreement. I got sucked into that bait/discussion and I lost my point in the process.

 

Big picture I think — and I've said it before: I do not believe this is a "full" or "down to the ground" rebuild.

I just don't.

I don't buy that premise at all. And have not since the thing kicked in.

 

As such I think this team needs and wants to go into the season with some substance — i.e. Hayes and Zibs at center and see how things go, and let their new forward talent develop around a functioning and reasonable NHL team framework — Zibs, Hayes, Fast, Kreider, Zucc, Buchnevich. Kick the tyres on Namestnikov. Figure out what to do with useful and productive Spooner. Fully expect any player who plays like they don't want to be here to be dealt, as there is no room for that kind of player, vibe or bad karma.

 

Defense is another story. There we are at the mercy of how well some young players can adapt, at least sufficiently well to avoid nightly fan meltdowns at MSG. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

 

IMO Hayes/Zibs trade talk is premature. (but food for thought 6-months from now, and depending on various factors.) I don't see the team starting the season with two rookies (Chits and Lias) plus Namestnikov/Spooner and assorted cannon fodder. That just does not seem realistic, to me at least. I am not gonna lie though, about concussion concerns with Zibs, but I give the guy credit, he recovered and played well in the expected amount of time. He is still a legit 1C and wicked talented in his own way. Team needs him and others to avoid the above-mentioned meltdowns while in this stage of an imperfect transition.

 

And like you said, what happens at the trade deadline/offseason is totally another story — depends a lot on how the season shakes out and who is developing well enough to force certain trades that might not otherwise happen. Zibs has great value, but would require a very high first round draft pick return+plus+plus, IMO. But that's talk for December January early February depending again on where the big picture is by then.

[Giacomin]

I am in complete agreement. I got sucked into that bait/discussion and I lost my point in the process.

 

Big picture I think — and I've said it before: I do not believe this is a "full" or "down to the ground" rebuild.

I just don't.

I don't buy that premise at all. And have not since the thing kicked in.

 

As such I think this team needs and wants to go into the season with some substance — i.e. Hayes and Zibs at center and see how things go, and let their new forward talent develop around a functioning and reasonable NHL team framework — Zibs, Hayes, Fast, Kreider, Zucc, Buchnevich. Kick the tyres on Namestnikov. Figure out what to do with useful and productive Spooner. Fully expect any player who plays like they don't want to be here to be dealt, as there is no room for that kind of player, vibe or bad karma.

 

Defense is another story. There we are at the mercy of how well some young players can adapt, at least sufficiently well to avoid nightly fan meltdowns at MSG. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

 

IMO Hayes/Zibs trade talk is premature. (but food for thought 6-months from now, and depending on various factors.) I don't see the team starting the season with two rookies (Chits and Lias) plus Namestnikov/Spooner and assorted cannon fodder. That just does not seem realistic, to me at least. I am not gonna lie though, about concussion concerns with Zibs, but I give the guy credit, he recovered and played well in the expected amount of time. He is still a legit 1C and wicked talented in his own way. Team needs him and others to avoid the above-mentioned meltdowns while in this stage of an imperfect transition.

 

And like you said, what happens at the trade deadline/offseason is totally another story — depends a lot on how the season shakes out and who is developing well enough to force certain trades that might not otherwise happen. Zibs has great value, but would require a very high first round draft pick return+plus+plus, IMO. But that's talk for December January early February depending again on where the big picture is by then.

 

You've come back to your senses. ;)

 

It's gonna be fun to see things shake out under a new coach and system. Still a few steps to go before the coach and players get to camp. Let's see if we bargain shop a FA or two.

 

Then there may be a trade. Could see a team wanting to shed cap, as the season nears. Like if Boston or Tampa land Tavares.

 

There are also 2 huge holes and the Rangers may still try to fill one and let the other fill organically.

 

#1 - A top pair RHD. No one on the roster. If Lundkvist can reach that potential it will take at least 4 years.

 

#2 - A second pair LHD. We have them in our system, just may not be ready this year. This is solved with a little patience.

 

Here's my take. We are rumored to be interested in Trouba (again) and I think management takes a run at him or possibly another RHD who can be paired with Skjei. Then we know what we have with Skjei too, which I'm optimistic.

 

Trouba is going to cost a quite a bit and I'm skeptical we'll be able to pull it off. Maybe we'll wait till the Jets realize they have pending cap issues and start making calls.

 

BTW, Not ignoring the gigantic hole - a top line RW who can score, skate and play D with Zib and Kreids. Right now there is Fast (who can't score enough to be that guy) or Buch, who has a ways to go to be that. Thought Wahlstrom could be that guy in a year or two, once his D improved. Now we hope for Kravtsov, except he is LW. Maybe a C, but still not a sniping RW who can play D

[The Dude]

I would honestly be fine with the Rangers just going with youth from the end of this year forward. I really don't think it's an absolute necessity to bring in these so called "experienced players" to "teach" the kids. Fuck 'em! Let them learn the ropes on their own, and have someone emerge as a leader.

 

I know baseball and hockey are 2 different animals, but athletes are athletes. Jeter, Mo, Andy, and Jorge all pretty much came up together...maybe a year or 2 apart in most cases, and only a few years from Bernie. There were no leaders on that team until Jeter grabbed the bull by the balls and helped spin that franchise into a perennial powerhouse.

 

Yeah salary cap and all that bullshit aside, the point is that I don't feel as if you HAVE to have some old players in the lineup to teach this shit...it's hockey, not brain surgery. Can it help in some cases, yeah maybe a little...mostly in playoff hockey...but I don't see this franchise even sniffing a playoff game for at least 3 years. And as tough a pill that is to swallow, the fact remains that bringing in older players like Grabner, Lucic and the rest of these fossils in my eyes, doesn't help the progression of a rebuild. I think it actually detracts from it's progress because I think it clogs up spots that younger players can be playing in.

 

I say fuck it all...dump the rest of this entire shit show Sather put here at some point this season or next if possible, and lets get our shit together for the 2021-2022 season. No use in debating about Hayes, Zibby, Hank, Zucc or any of the other shit balls stuck to the hairs of my ass on this team; I think we should set our sights on guys like Jack Hughes types that are franchise players and can help build us a solid core of players we can build on for many years.

 

...I suppose I'm looking further down the road, because I just see this coming season as a complete nose dive from day 1....seriously, I'm expecting about 67-72 points this year. Which I think is the PERFECT training ground for younger players with little to no experience. Let them all go play and pay their fucking dues and learn from the ground up....and I hope Quinn beats the piss out of them until they GET IT RIGHT.

 

Ummmmm, the Yanks had Tino, O'Neil, Brosious, Chad Curtis, Wade Boggs, Cone, Cecil Fielder, Gooden, Strawberry, Wells, Raines, Charlie Hayes and countless other vets to show that core the ropes. Sorry Ozzman. Terrible example.

 

I'm all for going with the youth. But NY can eat them up. Gotta have a vet or three around for guidance, to show them how to be a pro, as well as a baby sitter... Definitely need some little bit of protection.

[josh]

So, Frat boy vs house DJ. Pick your side!

[Ozzy]

Ummmmm, the Yanks had Tino, O'Neil, Brosious, Chad Curtis, Wade Boggs, Cone, Cecil Fielder, Gooden, Strawberry, Wells, Raines, Charlie Hayes and countless other vets to show that core the ropes. Sorry Ozzman. Terrible example.

 

I'm all for going with the youth. But NY can eat them up. Gotta have a vet or three around for guidance, to show them how to be a pro, as well as a baby sitter... Definitely need some little bit of protection.

 

Paulie 'O, and Tino were still in their youthful days, but yeah I hear ya. I'm trying to liken this move to the Edmonton boys of the 80's but it's so long ago, I doubt it even fits the scheme nowadays.

 

I'm just tired of seeing the same old fucking song and dance from this franchise:

 

Trade all the youth and promising players for big names and get shit canned in round 1 or 2. Then go blow smoke up our asses to drive ticket sales that we're gonna draft this big star, and we get more dog shit that never turns into an Ovi or a Sid, or anything close to a franchise player.

 

Kreider is the closest we've come to gold since Leetch.

 

Haven't we seen enough of that?

 

You're right though Dude...the Yanks had a shit load, but somehow that team can eat six apples and shit a fruit salad, and the Rangers just plain out seem to have no idea of how to draft, or re-tool a franchise.