gdt: [RS] (#71) New York Rangers vs Pittsburgh Penguins // Snap Back to Reality

[Pete]

What message does that send to your guys in the A? How would you like to be any of those guys who have sacrificed their childhoods and dedicated their lives to play at the highest level possible, get to that point, then get passed over because the team that drafted you wants to now put an ECHL roster on the ice? Don?t you WANT guys to WANT to be here? The Rangers never gave kids a look years ago and part of the reason why guys like Zidlicky were happy they were traded. Why? Because they want to fuckin play, and if they?re the next man up, they earned it. They at least owe those guys that opportunity to impress for next year.

It's a really simple message. Stay down here and win rather than go up to the NHL and be in a toxic losing environment.

[Long live the King]

Except 5-2-2 in their last 9 isn't a toxic losing environment. I'm sure their confidence is growing each game. In fact, looking at the schedule, good chance they win 3 of the next 4.

[Pete]

Except that you're saying that in hindsight. At the point these players were called up, it was a toxic losing environment where everybody was getting traded.

[Long live the King]

So then it didn't have a negative impact on them, as they were able to overcome that adversity.

 

One could argue that their perseverance under those circumstances was actually more beneficial for their development.

[Pete]

Sure. But that's not the point. Mikey asked what's the message to the kids if you don't bring them up.

 

The message is that this is messy and we're not exposing you to it.

 

The outcome is irrelevant to this particular discussion.

[Long live the King]

But Mikey's point is that the kids don't give 2 shits about any of that. Pionk, Gilmour, Georgiev these kids are fulfilling their life long dream of playing in the NHL. They earned it.

 

And what was toxic about it? They were dealing with a ton of injuries and losing games. Trading vets at the deadline. The team was going in a new direction. Those three things are true, but toxic?

[Pete]

You'd rather have young players in a winning environment.

 

The question was is there a way to message to young players that they're staying in the A. The answer is yes, there is a way to do it. I'm not debating the outcome. Simply saying there's a way to have that make sense to them.

[Mike]

You'd rather have young players in a winning environment.

 

The question was is there a way to message to young players that they're staying in the A. The answer is yes, there is a way to do it. I'm not debating the outcome. Simply saying there's a way to have that make sense to them.

 

Everyone is aware of the big club’s situation(s). If you gave a guy the choice of playing out the year in the A with the possibility of winning a championship versus playing the year out in the NHL, I don’t think you’ll find many guys that want to stay in the A. Yes, it’s great to be around a winning environment, but the AHL is a constant carousel and all these guys have been part of both winning and losing teams in all their years of hockey. Does a kid on Buffalo or Arizona’s A team care if the Sabres or Coyotes suck? Fuck no. Get me a bus/plane ticket, see ya.

[Mike]

But Mikey's point is that the kids don't give 2 shits about any of that. Pionk, Gilmour, Georgiev these kids are fulfilling their life long dream of playing in the NHL. They earned it.

 

And what was toxic about it? They were dealing with a ton of injuries and losing games. Trading vets at the deadline. The team was going in a new direction. Those three things are true, but toxic?

 

Right, if I’m a fringe player, I would be rooting for my NHL affiliate to suck shit or for a guy to break his arm. You’re not human if you don’t think that way.

[Long live the King]

You'd rather have young players in a winning environment.

 

The question was is there a way to message to young players that they're staying in the A. The answer is yes, there is a way to do it. I'm not debating the outcome. Simply saying there's a way to have that make sense to them.

 

So flip side. The Sabres and Coyotes both have playoff AHL teams. Do they use that same message to send all their 19-22 year old waivers exempt players down? I'm sure they'd all rather stay in the NHL.

[Pete]

Everyone is aware of the big club?s situation(s). If you gave a guy the choice of playing out the year in the A with the possibility of winning a championship versus playing the year out in the NHL, I don?t think you?ll find many guys that want to stay in the A. Yes, it?s great to be around a winning environment, but the AHL is a constant carousel and all these guys have been part of both winning and losing teams in all their years of hockey. Does a kid on Buffalo or Arizona?s A team care if the Sabres or Coyotes suck? Fuck no. Get me a bus/plane ticket, see ya.

Right but if you gave a player a choice coming out of the draft to play in the NHL or develop...they'd say play in the NHL.

 

It's the job of the team to develop players. Not give them what they want.

[Mike]

So flip side. The Sabres and Coyotes both have playoff AHL teams. Do they use that same message to send all their 19-22 year old waivers exempt players down? I'm sure they'd all rather stay in the NHL.

 

Stay in the show. No doubt. 90% of these kids have already won a lot of shit in their lives. Playing in the NHL trumps winning the Calder Cup every day. It’s great to be a part of a championship team, no doubt, but that’s the trickiest trophy in sports. Lol

[Long live the King]

Right but if you gave a player a choice coming out of the draft to play in the NHL or develop...they'd say play in the NHL.

 

It's the job of the team to develop players. Not give them what they want.

 

These aren't just drafted teenagers (hence why Holland and Carey are still here instead of Chytil or Andersson). The players we're talking about are all 22+ and have earned their spots in the organizational depth chart.

[Mike]

Right but if you gave a player a choice coming out of the draft to play in the NHL or develop...they'd say play in the NHL.

 

It's the job of the team to develop players. Not give them what they want.

 

They’re not getting what they want because they asked for it. They’re getting a well earned opportunity in a situation where the NHL team is not likely to make a playoff run. Playing 15-20 in the NHL isn’t stunting anyone’s development. As a GM or coach, you want to take the best guys possible and see what they got in that spot.

[Pete]

So flip side. The Sabres and Coyotes both have playoff AHL teams. Do they use that same message to send all their 19-22 year old waivers exempt players down? I'm sure they'd all rather stay in the NHL.

The Sabres are the Sabres and the Coyotes are the Coyotes. Neither team is the Rangers.

 

These aren't just drafted teenagers (hence why Holland and Carey are still here instead of Chytil or Andersson). The players we're talking about are all 22+ and have earned their spots in the organizational depth chart.

Chytil and Andersson are where they are because of entry level slide and no other reason. The Rangers aren't going to burn a year of their contract.

 

They’re not getting what they want because they asked for it. They’re getting a well earned opportunity in a situation where the NHL team is not likely to make a playoff run. Playing 15-20 in the NHL isn’t stunting anyone’s development. As a GM or coach, you want to take the best guys possible and see what they got in that spot.

Again, I'm not debating the outcome. You said "what kind of message does it send", I'm saying the message is that we want you to stay down here and be in a winning environment vs be in the NHL on a team that's not going to win.

 

What do you think it does to these kids when Zucc has basically said "We don't have the talent to compete with top teams"?

 

All I'm saying is that there is a completely viable and credible reason and message to keep our best prospects in the A right now.

 

You guys are acting like there is no reason or argument to do it. All I'm saying is...There is one. You might not like it or agree with it...But there is one.

 

And honestly idgaf if a player thinks he should be in the show. I'm sure Gilmour thinks he belongs here. BFD.

[Giacomin]

If you want to be mad that they win, I have no problem with that. It’s the finger pointing and blaming that’s ridiculous. To blame Gorton for not embarrassing this franchise by putting borderline AHL players on the ice is wrong. Not sure if most realize what that product would look like. It would be embarrassing for everyone involved, especially the players. Also, you’re risking getting guys hurt, especially your goalies. It’s just not smart to do for 15-20 games. Chance at a better lottery pick if you shit the bed the last 2 games? Sure, dress me, Pete, Josh, and Dunny. But not for 20 games.

 

Phil, you need to really embrace the tank properly. Dahlin smahlin, forget Hughes, we need to do this right. Two words. Quinton Byfield. There, your life is already changed. Start prepping for what is sure to be an amazing 2020 draft class . BTW, Byfield is 15 y/o 6'3" 190+ Center and paced 3PPG this year. Unstoppable. Gretzsky returns.

 

OK, I mean this in the nicest way, but you are getting dogmatic about tanking. Luck and lottery is not a strategy. Tankathon clearly shows us that even finishing dead last (how are we going to do that anyway?) you have an 18% chance at the #1. 51% to pick #4. So, say we somehow finish 2nd to last. The odds already start dropping big. Only 12% for #1 and 35% for top 3. Too much luck and planned misery is involved. A GM worth his salt is implementing a strategy that assumes no Dahlin, Hughes or Byfield.

 

Mikey is talking sense. I'm with you, I was hoping Malkin pots that penalty shot and we get 0 points instead of 2. But you can't get mad at mgmt, coaching or the players for winning Mgmt traded everyone expected (except maybe Zuc), plus Miller. All the talent they got back can be part of the rebuild. They stopped letting McD play injured, they brought up 4 AHL defenders, iced the most non descript bottom six and unintentionally impotent top six. And they obviously convinced AV to rest Hank more.

 

There is a point of diminishing returns. Supressing a 22 y/o who has earned the call up for a non prospect is bad mgmt on too many levels. Realize we are finding out that Pionk has a chance and Geogiev has a future, but also that O'Gara can't cut it and Gilmour has a dramatically uneven game. Beyond seperating the wheat from the chaff, we come away with game film detail against NHLers of exactly what Gilmour needs to improve to ever make it.

 

Once the moves were made there comes a times when there may be more benefit to raising players confidence, growing the right culture and even improving trade values, versus finishing two slots better. Fans hoping for a better draft pick can still take some solace that Zuc and Spoons stock is higher than it was a month ago. We also get a preview of next year's club, the new vets and how the remaining vets respond. There is value in what is happening. There is not much anyone can control, best let it unfold and use it to evaluate. Enjoy it all. Life blazes by.

[Gravesy]

It’s moot anyway because at this point it’s clear the tank isn’t happening.

The “best” we can hope for is being taken over by the Isles and the Hawks. The Oilers at a massive stretch.

Whether you finish 8th or 9th last is almost inconsequential for the lottery.

I think we can go back to enjoying watching our young team play at this point.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I haven't been able to watch the games lately, so I mostly just watch the highlights and read what you guys are saying.

 

I just took a look at the team stats and see that Pionk averages 21:51 a night, has 9 points in 17 games and is actually a 0 in +/- on this shit team (Skjei is -19!!). I get that the team (especially the D) suck, but those stats looks impressing either way. Is he good enough to play on a 2/3rd pair in the coming years when we're looking to compete again? Does anyone have a scouting report for the 17 games he's played? Being right handed is a huge plus too.

[Gravesy]

I’ve been really impressed with Pionk. He definitely belongs in the National.

[Mike]

The Sabres are the Sabres and the Coyotes are the Coyotes. Neither team is the Rangers.

 

Chytil and Andersson are where they are because of entry level slide and no other reason. The Rangers aren't going to burn a year of their contract.

 

Again, I'm not debating the outcome. You said "what kind of message does it send", I'm saying the message is that we want you to stay down here and be in a winning environment vs be in the NHL on a team that's not going to win.

 

What do you think it does to these kids when Zucc has basically said "We don't have the talent to compete with top teams"?

 

All I'm saying is that there is a completely viable and credible reason and message to keep our best prospects in the A right now.

 

You guys are acting like there is no reason or argument to do it. All I'm saying is...There is one. You might not like it or agree with it...But there is one.

 

And honestly idgaf if a player thinks he should be in the show. I'm sure Gilmour thinks he belongs here. BFD.

 

Sorry for responding like this, but I can’t quote everything separately on my phone. Lol

 

1. Yes, Sabres are Sabres, etc ... but they all have the same goal. Teams, both AHL and NHL, have to accept their current situations and it’s up to them on how and how fast they can improve it. Everyone involved, players included understand where they’re at and everyone wants to see how the next wave of guys can help the team, winning environment or not. I’m not saying anyone is OK with losing, I’m saying they understand it at the moment and can only hope to improve. This is the time for those opportunities.

 

2. 100% correct. Obviously we’d like to see Chytil or Andersson right now over Holland, but makes no sense. Not sure what the deal is with Lettieri’s movement, but he’d be another one to get a longer opportunity than what he had.

 

3. It sends a bad message to the young players here. It’s just the nature of it. Like I said to Phil, calling bottom guys up just to lose is a bad move for multiple reasons.

 

What Zuc said isn’t a secret. I’m not debating whether he should have said it or not, but it’s true, and I’m sure the whole room knew it. That’s probably something that he handled in the room on his own after he realized how it came out. If he didn’t, that’s another topic.

 

I don’t know how to say this without making it look like no one cares, but you’re smart enough to interpret it correctly ... The goal is to put or eventually put the best guys possible on the ice for your NHL club. Coaches, mgmt, and players know it. Winning in the A takes a back seat to that, always. Whether it’s to win now, or to take a look at what they could use next year. It’s just something that’s accepted.

 

 

I’m sure Gilmour thinks it too, but if he’s here imagine how bad the other guys would be.

[Pete]

Sorry for responding like this, but I can’t quote everything separately on my phone. Lol

 

1. Yes, Sabres are Sabres, etc ... but they all have the same goal. Teams, both AHL and NHL, have to accept their current situations and it’s up to them on how and how fast they can improve it. Everyone involved, players included understand where they’re at and everyone wants to see how the next wave of guys can help the team, winning environment or not. I’m not saying anyone is OK with losing, I’m saying they understand it at the moment and can only hope to improve. This is the time for those opportunities.

 

2. 100% correct. Obviously we’d like to see Chytil or Andersson right now over Holland, but makes no sense. Not sure what the deal is with Lettieri’s movement, but he’d be another one to get a longer opportunity than what he had.

 

3. It sends a bad message to the young players here. It’s just the nature of it. Like I said to Phil, calling bottom guys up just to lose is a bad move for multiple reasons.

 

What Zuc said isn’t a secret. I’m not debating whether he should have said it or not, but it’s true, and I’m sure the whole room knew it. That’s probably something that he handled in the room on his own after he realized how it came out. If he didn’t, that’s another topic.

 

I don’t know how to say this without making it look like no one cares, but you’re smart enough to interpret it correctly ... The goal is to put or eventually put the best guys possible on the ice for your NHL club. Coaches, mgmt, and players know it. Winning in the A takes a back seat to that, always. Whether it’s to win now, or to take a look at what they could use next year. It’s just something that’s accepted.

 

 

I’m sure Gilmour thinks it too, but if he’s here imagine how bad the other guys would be.

Fair enough.