Long live the King

Lindholm doesn't have to be a rental.  I wouldn't be opposed to this next year:

Panarin - Lindholm - Laf

Othmann - Zib - Vatrano

Cuylle - Tro - Kakko

Trading Krieder recoups assets you spent on Lindholm and gives you money to keep Lindholm. 

21 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

Zib scored 40 once and look at him now. 

Wait until March. 

6 hours ago, Br4d said:

Lindholm has 5 EVS goals this season.  He doesn't solve anything.

 And two years ago he scored 31.  Playing with Panarin instead of the crap in Calgary will change that.

He's not a kid.  He's 27.  It's super unrealistic to expect him to maintain how he played on a consistent basis.

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Awesome, thanks for the insight. When I aw the news of that you popped into my thoughts so I figured i'd ask. Hey, at least you'd get a local game when the boys are in town, right? 

 

   I'm all for expansion in cities that make sense. Can't say I'm all too familiar with Utah but a nice outdoor game in MOAB would be pretty damn cool. Overland to pregame lol

An outdoor game with the snow capped mountains would look pretty cool. 

20 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

Are we gonna lose you as a rangers fan?

Never

4 hours ago, Keirik said:

@Long live the King you in Utah?  Maybe you can give some insight as to the area and how big of a hockey town it is? 

The Delta Center sucks for hockey.  If you've watched any of the preseason games they've played there the stands block the camera view of the corners.

But as it says that would just be temporary until a new arena is built.

As far as the market we have an ECHL team, in a less than ideal location, that draws over 5k in attendance.  The Jazz consistently average 18k in attendance.  I think they'd easily be able to draw similarly for a NHL team.  An NHL arena in Salt Lake City or Draper would offer far more in terms of other attractions than the ECHL arena location.

Everything is about the 2034 Olympics.  I think a fancy new arena gets built regardless.  

3 hours ago, Br4d said:

The Rangers just need to figure out who the big subtraction is.  The team doesn't come out to play some nights.  This has been true through 3 HC's now.  It's not the coach.  Subtracting the coach will do nothing.

People keep saying this.  Quinn sucks.  GG never lasted any more than 3 years.  How are they relevant? 

Is he allowed to wear the home helmet? 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

Yeah, I detailed some of it recently. They've added exactly one non-first round draft pick (Cuylle) to their full-time roster in nine drafts. Technically two if you count Zac Jones, who barely qualifies (considering he never plays), or three if you count Morgan Barron, who they traded.

 

I also don't think Kakko and Laf are victims of bad development. They are who they are. They woudl have benefitted from AHL time, probably, maybe, but a year in the A isn't pushing their ceilings any. They'd likely have developed as the players they are today, just a little sooner or smoother.

 

This is largely why I draw a hard line in the sand on drafting at the Othmann draft. It was the first full draft with Drury running show. He hasn't had any late-draft luck yet either, but these players feel more hopeful. Specifically guys like Othamann, Sykora, BMB, Perreault, and Fortescue. It was before the cutoff, but I'm not writing off Brett Berard, either, though I freely admit that's for selfish reasons.

Hard to say 9 drafts.  Looking at 2020, there are only 2 non first rounders that have played more than 80 games and one was the 3rd pick in round 2.  If you're looking for good late round picks gotta give them 4-5 years to develop.  There a good number of kids with a shot in that group.

Just because he shouldn't unseat someone off the league's top PP =/= he wouldn't produce on the PP

21 minutes ago, Phil said:

No one does it perfectly, but most other clubs who've gone through similar organizational rebuilds have more to show from it. Using your examples, Edmonton have two generational centers and a #1 PP defenseman. Toronto have the (pending) greatest American goal-scorer of all-time, William Nylander, and Mitch Marner. Arizona never actually rebuilt — they're just a giant money laundering operation with no long-term future in Arizona. Once that's settled (or the team moves), we can start the clock (again).

 

But yes, I'm just complaining because the Rangers' luck was shit and without Panarin, they'd be so much worse. It would feel more like Hall-era Oilers, but even less productive.

To my point:

2007: Gange #6

2009: Paajarvi #10

2010: Hall #1

2011: RNH #1

2012: Yakupov #1

2013: Nurse #7

2014: Draisaitl #3

2015: McDavid #1

2016: Puljujarvi #4

2018: Bouchard #10

2019: Broberg #8

They just happen to suck long enough until they sucked in the "right" years.  Even with their generational centers they missed the playoffs 3 times, lost in the Covid qualifying round, lost in the first round, lost in the second round twice, and made one conference final.  

The Rangers had 4 down years and were back in the conference finals.  Does Edmonton have more to show for it?

Toronto missed the playoffs 10 out of 11 years.  All they have to show for their draft picks is 1 playoff series win.  

Just because they have flashy names doesn't mean they were any more successful at rebuilding than the Rangers.

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

OK, then let me clarify/rephrase:

 

Laf's doesn't own a specific skill that would warrant supplanting anyone currently on the first unit. He's not a better playmaker than Panarin, a better one-timer than Zibanejad, a better netfront than Kreider, etc. etc. It's not meant as a slight against him. It was a low bar to clear, but I'm genuinely impressed with how well he's playing this year. It's very encouraging, especially given how ineffective Kakko still looks five+ years since his draft.

 

I'd classify him as "blocked, but deserves to be" simply because I view everything top down, not bottom up. To me, players have to force their way on, not the other way around. When you have the best PP in the league, anyone looking to make a case they deserve a spot there over what's working needs to outperform the current members and/or bring a very unique quality that makes their addition "worth it."

This is the kind of thing that's keeping the argument going, lol.  Paranin is 3rd in the league in assists going back 5 years.  Laf obviously isn't bumping Panarin off the PP. That doesn't mean that Laf doesn't own that skill set and would be ineffective being the distributor from the circle.

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Both of whom play roles. Laf doesn't (until he does). He doesn't have Zibanejad's shot threat or Kreider's net-front presence and elite puck-tipping skills. What skills does he have? Again, this is the key question to ask because good as he's been this year finding a gear, I'm still not sure at all what he's actually good at.

Well, he plays Panarin's role on the 2nd unit.  We've already addressed the 2nd unit's usage, and he is trying to feed Brodzinski and Wheeler on the 2nd unit.  No wonder it looks like ass.  Now Kakko is back we'll see how it looks going forward, hopefully they get a center soon.

The only real mistake was Andersson over Necas, Suzuki, and Thomas.  Laf and Kakko were must picks.  Nothing really worth crying over after Krav as far as forwards.

Add that to the fact they are 5th in the league in wins over the last 3 years.  That's preferable to me rather than drafting in the top 5 for a decade until a true generational player comes along.

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

The PP is an extension of the coaching staff's confidence in a player based on the level of play/confidence/skill they show at even strength. What about Laf's game suggests he's going to be better setting up chances (or converting on them) when he doesn't even do it at evens?

He has identical ES numbers as Kreider and is better than Zib.  Again I'm not taking either off PP1, but this is starting to boarder on blind Laf hate because "He'S nOt A nUmBeR 1 oVeRaLl!"

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

It looks extremely consistent. He had one anomaly year which coincides with a career high in goals. Outside of that, he's averaging 8.3 PPG per season.

 

The other differentiating factor is this: Kreider plays a role on the power play that's discernible and measurable. Laf doesn't. He mostly floats around the circles. He's not the big shot (Trouba/Zibanejad), the one-time threat (Zibanejad/Panarin), the net-front presence (Kreider), the visionary (Panarin) or the QB (Fox). Which goes back to the fundamental criticism of him as a player: no one knows what he is or what he does well, because he doesn't actually do anything very well. Right now, the projections are hopeful that he'll develop into a solid 30-30 type, which makes him a complimentary winger — someone who will rely heavily on the strength of his line mates in order to make right by this.

 

So, I have three questions for you:

 

1. Who are you taking off the second-best (or first, depending on the day) power play in the league to get Laf the reps you think he needs to be more productive;

2. What role do you see him playing;

1. And what about any of this inspires the supreme confidence you seem to have in the idea this will all just magically translate to the power play?

I'm not taking anyone off.  That still doesn't mean he would be ineffective if he was on the first unit.

19 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Joel Eriksson Ek would be an ideal 20 something center target at a reasonable cap hit. Terrific 5v5 player. Near Selke quality two way player.

 

I don't think he's available (yet), but if Minny is too far out as the deadline approaches and decides to pull the plug, I wouldn't think twice about including Perreault in the package going back. A Perreault/Schneider package might get them thinking.

You'd need a d back if you trade Schneider.  More likely they'd be willing to move Hartman & Bogosian than Eriksson Ek.

4 minutes ago, Vodka Drunkenski said:

Why would someone break up the best line and practically the only line producing?

Maybe, if you split up Panarin and Tro, you'd get 2 lines that produce.  Only one way to find out.  If it doesn't work, put them back.

8 minutes ago, Flynn said:

Like they say about best laid plains.... I'll stand by my assertion that unless you have an appreciable upgrade over Tro, why would you mess with what's been the best line all season. I liked Strome when he was here, but that swap removes a great faceoff man, better defender and much grittier guy. If its me. I'd not want to disrupt the best line to make the 3rd line stronger  Lineup length, sure.. But at what cost.   

As has been mentioned numerous times by Pete, just because you try another center with Bread, doesn't mean you can't go back to Tro if you need to.  Panarin had 16 points in 10 games with Chytil.  It's not like he sucked until Tro was on the line.

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

It will always come back to  Laf not being much of a 1OA. If you need to be placed on a 30% power play to contribute on the PP, then...yea...

 

But good for him, he is indeed running with the opportunity. No one needs to make it more than what it is. The biggest difference is his level of effort. It just wasn't there game to game. This is the guy I thought he'd be a rookie. With any luck he's just scratching the surface. Panarin won't be here forever.

 

That's not really a fair assessment either.  Last year he averaged 1:23 per game on the PP.  We know based on usage that's on average the last 20-30 seconds of 3-4 PP's per game, and they come on while to puck is behind their own net.  Not really setting the second unit up for success.  And I'm not advocating for the first unit to come off sooner, just a by-product of having such a good first unit, the second unit gets crap opportunities.    

35 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Yeah, because he was a picture of consistency and competence there.

 

Kreider scored 26 PPG the year he had 52 total but he's always been a reliable PP presence since his rookie year. He scored 6, then 7, 5, 6, 7, 7, 9, 11. Then 26 in the 52 year, then 8 last year and 9 already this year.

 

Wanna know why Kakko and Laf aren't? Because they're not competent.

It doesn't look very consistent.  Looks like one anomalous year where he scored 3-4 years worth of goals.

So last year Kreider had 8 with the first unit in 272 minutes.  Laf had 3 on the second unit in 111.5 minutes.  There's no way you can sit there with a straight face and say Laf isn't competent enough to score around 10 goals if played 250+ minutes with the first unit.

In Laf's defense, without Chytil and Kakko, the 2nd unit was Laf, Gus, and a pile of trash.

53 minutes ago, Flynn said:

Not for nothing.. Moving Tro from his current spot is nuts unless you have a significant upgrade, especially considering how well Bread is playing.. I'm not upsetting the apple cart to add Strome, who is appreciable worse than Tro is every metric we care about so far this season- and it isn't even close. 

Bread is at a 1.4 ppg pace.  His 2 seasons with Strome he paced 1.38 ppg.  We know Bread and Butter works. 

What we're not currently doing is taking advantage of Tro's defense, which is why Lavi had him centering the 3rd line/checking line to start the season.

2 hours ago, Pete said:

The more I think about this, the more I think it needs to be an off the radar acquisition. 

 

I don't think they should be players for Lindholm. The cost to acquire that player, without a prayer in the world of resigning him, just doesn't make it a wise move. Especially after what they had to give up over the last couple of seasons at the deadline just to have all those players walk.

 

Similarly with Monahan, I don't think he helps. Half his points are on the power play, and he isn't going to get that time here, so would we still want him if he was pacing 25 points instead of 50 points? Unlikely. He's like the food stamps version of Zib.

 

I think they should try to acquire a young center with term, and I would actually pay a little more for that. I thought it was crazy when @Kevin mentioned flipping Perrault already... But... I would part with him for a center.

 

Sadly I think Chytil is toast, and even if he plays again, he should be on the wing. 

Would you break up the bread line for this?  Go Cuylle-Tro-Vesey as the 3rd line?