gdt: [RS] (#47) Rangers v. Philadelphia Flyers // Jonesing for a Win

[Phil]

It's this, 100%.

 

If you want to say that they don't play a diverse game, theyre one dimensional, they lack tools - sure, great. But you can't tell me that players aren't growing under him when our entire top 6 and three of our six defenders are having career years every year.

 

It's a tired criticism that hasn't got factual merit.

 

And this is a bad faith argument. No one is saying NO ONE is having growth. What's being charged is that the team's most important u23s aren't having enough growth, of which there is legitimate evidence. There are also a ton of mitigating factors -- pandemic, stiff competition, lack of PP opportunity -- but the general argument isn't without merit.

 

That said, as we've discussed offline as well, the REAL issue is breaking the team's homogeneity. If we're weighting it, it's something like 70-30 composition to coaching.

 

The Rangers as a team are incredibly easy to game plan against, because they're overloaded with the exact same types of players. It's why they constantly lose in emphatic fashion against teams like the Hurricanes, Islanders, and Penguins -- clubs that aren't one dimensional, and can play a hard, relentless attacking game that neutralizes Panarin and Zibanejad's space and time, thus neutralizing the Rangers.

 

It's becoming clearer by the day that a "type for type" trade is needed this off-season to attempt to cure this. It's what Brooks has been banging the drum about for a year and a half. He was right.

 

 

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[MuddyInTheMiddle]

You mean Chytil with the first overall pick this year and the second overall pick from last year is not talent on his wings?

 

No. Are you trying to imply that Lafrenaire and Kakko are elite talent based on their production?

[Ozzy]

Is this a bad time to bring up that shorthanded tap-in Howden gagged on??? ;)

 

Holy shit!! Howden has to improve greatly just to "suck"!!!

[BrooksBurner]

Is this a bad time to bring up that shorthanded tap-in Howden gagged on??? ;)

 

Holy shit!! Howden has to improve greatly just to "suck"!!!

 

He's like the plasma pistol without the BR am I right Ozzy?

[siddious]

Is this a bad time to bring up that shorthanded tap-in Howden gagged on??? ;)

 

Holy shit!! Howden has to improve greatly just to "suck"!!!

 

Howden was a first round pick.

 

 

:rofl:

[BrooksBurner]

I think the Rangers as a team have shown some progress the last two years. but they are in a frustrating stage where they generally beat bad teams consistently and usually play well against bubble teams in the standings. I can't pretend that's not progress from two years ago. And this year compared to last year they tightened up defensively more. It's just the style they are relying on to win those games doesn't generally work against tougher and structured playoff quality teams - except for the Capitals for some odd reason. That's the next step though, and I think that requires more NHL experience from the coaching position.

 

From a player development aspect, totally agreed with Phil on player development under 23. It's the most important point to judge in terms of player development if we want to see this team be a dynasty. Quinn has utterly failed to get the most out of those guys. I just don't see him as the guy who is going to progress this team, or these young players, any further IMO.

[Ozzy]

He's like the plasma pistol without the BR am I right Ozzy?

 

Ok, this made me piss my pants!!!! :rofl:

 

EXACTLY!!!!!!

 

Howden was a first round pick.

 

:rofl:

 

....'Fucker was booby trapped!!! ;)

[siddious]

I think the Rangers as a team have shown some progress the last two years. but they are in a frustrating stage where they generally beat bad teams consistently and usually play well against bubble teams in the standings. I can't pretend that's not progress from two years ago. And this year compared to last year they tightened up defensively more. It's just the style they are relying on to win those games doesn't generally work against tougher and structured playoff quality teams - except for the Capitals for some odd reason. That's the next step though, and I think that requires more NHL experience from the coaching position.

 

From a player development aspect, totally agreed with Phil on player development under 23. It's the most important point to judge in terms of player development if we want to see this team be a dynasty. Quinn has utterly failed to get the most out of those guys. I just don't see him as the guy who is going to progress this team, or these young players, any further IMO.

 

We cant discount the fact that they are the youngest team in the league. Its not even necessarily that they're young but HOW young. You cant expect 18/19 year olds to make huge impacts on the success of a team, no matter how good or bad they are or how highly they are touted. And there are currently 3 of them on the team. If they had no skill or were just playing bad all around then I say go at it but the way they play and lose is exactly how you imagine a young team would play- inconsistent, no kill instinct, and plenty of defensive lapses. Those should all improve with time regardless of coach.

 

That is why I am saying next season is going to be the real litmus test. I dont think you can discount how important a training camp is, especially for young kids. Kakko will have a real full season under his belt and with more improvement should actually become a legit player. Laf needs to re-assess his game, get stronger and most importantly work on his skating- I swear at times I feel like I could out skate him. Miller will hopefully continue to improve. And most importantly, even if they re-sign Smith the D should be improved simply by eliminating Bitteto, & Johnson and instead playing Jones, Lundqvist, or who ever. I will also point out that the first 1/3 of the season this team had absolutely no goal tending and its top two scorers were MIA- not exactly development issues.

 

I think Quinn makes some really stupid in-game decisions but I also think there is pressure on him to win now just as much as there is to develop guys. Unfortunately Blackwell is one of the top scorers on the team and neither kakko nor laf nor chytil or any one else has really looked amazing to deserve permanent top line spots. Now that theyre out of playoff contention I would like to see him give them more ice time but I get why he hasnt been giving it to them before.

[Phil]

I think the Rangers as a team have shown some progress the last two years. but they are in a frustrating stage where they generally beat bad teams consistently and usually play well against bubble teams in the standings. I can't pretend that's not progress from two years ago. And this year compared to last year they tightened up defensively more. It's just the style they are relying on to win those games doesn't generally work against tougher and structured playoff quality teams - except for the Capitals for some odd reason. That's the next step though, and I think that requires more NHL experience from the coaching position.

 

Right. They're an elite defensive team (9th GA/GP, 5th PK, etc) with tremendous offensive talent (7th GF/GP). They are making progress. They're just hitting a wall because they're homogeneous. They need another gear. Another option. Like what the Leafs did, who were facing the same issue the last two years. So they intentionally went out and acquired pieces that gave them what they were missing.

[Pete]

And this is a bad faith argument. No one is saying NO ONE is having growth. What's being charged is that the team's most important u23s aren't having enough growth, of which there is legitimate evidence. There are also a ton of mitigating factors -- pandemic, stiff competition, lack of PP opportunity -- but the general argument isn't without merit.

 

That said, as we've discussed offline as well, the REAL issue is breaking the team's homogeneity. If we're weighting it, it's something like 70-30 composition to coaching.

 

The Rangers as a team are incredibly easy to game plan against, because they're overloaded with the exact same types of players. It's why they constantly lose in emphatic fashion against teams like the Hurricanes, Islanders, and Penguins -- clubs that aren't one dimensional, and can play a hard, relentless attacking game that neutralizes Panarin and Zibanejad's space and time, thus neutralizing the Rangers.

 

It's becoming clearer by the day that a "type for type" trade is needed this off-season to attempt to cure this. It's what Brooks has been banging the drum about for a year and a half. He was right.

 

 

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But there isn't evidence of that. Laf is a rookie. Kakko is better this year than last. Miller is doing great. Chytil is progressing as his peers (look at Rob Thomas...8 points in 20+ games?).

 

There's not real evidence. It's all subjective argument. What you really mean is not enough progress to make certain people happy. Which isn't the same.

[Pete]

No. Are you trying to imply that Lafrenaire and Kakko are elite talent based on their production?

 

Why do we need him if the only way he's productive is with elite talent? I mean everyone can't play with Panarin.

 

Lafreniere is 1OA...He's got talent. I can't understand how that's even being questioned now. If he's not talented why are so many people upset that he sucks and Quinn ruined him.

[Phil]

But there isn't evidence of that. Laf is a rookie. Kakko is better this year than last. Miller is doing great. Chytil is progressing as his peers (look at Rob Thomas...8 points in 20+ games?).

 

Kakko is on pace to produce less than he did last season, and he was arguably the worst NHL regular in the entire league then. So, sure, he's shored up what he was giving up, but he has miles to go to on becoming a productive NHL player — you know, what he was drafted to be. They surely didn't take him second overall because they were enamored with his ability to be defensively responsible.

 

Miller is fine. He's not wowing anyone but for the fact he's an NHL regular at 21. But I alos don't ever expect him to be a major offensive contributor. He's Bouwmeester in my eyes. Steady, reliable, ice in his veins.

 

Chytil is in his third year in the league and is showing year-over-year progress, but it's marginal/incremental. He looks like a 45~ point player. That's what he's on pace for this season, at least, over 82 games. That's fine, but there are others taken right around him who are doing much better. Yamamoto, taken one pick later, has regressed this season but was a near point-per-game player last season. Josh Norris is second on a really bad Senators team in scoring this season. Eeli Tolvanen put it together and is a 0.63 P/GP player (52 over 82) for the Preds.

 

The late first round class from 2016 isn't doing much, but the late class from 2015 (20s picks) have also made major inroads. Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic.

 

Again — how much of this is Quinn's fault versus players? I don't know. I just know you can't fire teams, and coaches tend to take the fall when promising young players don't pay dividends not too long after they're drafted. Especially a first- or second-overall pick.

 

There's not real evidence. It's all subjective argument. What you really mean is not enough progress to make certain people happy. Which isn't the same.

 

And of course I mean to make "certain people happy." Me. I'm talking about me. All my arguments are my arguments. :rofl:

[MuddyInTheMiddle]

Why do we need him if the only way he's productive is with elite talent? I mean everyone can't play with Panarin.

 

Lafreniere is 1OA...He's got talent. I can't understand how that's even being questioned now. If he's not talented why are so many people upset that he sucks and Quinn ruined him.

 

You are being argumentative and taking what I said out of context(feel free to insert a snarky comment in your rebuttal).

 

I'll repeat my point again in case you just skimmed my post for what you wanted to argue about. I was articulating that now that the Rangers are just about mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, they should be using the last 9 games as an assessment period and an opportunity to build confidence for the U23 forwards on the roster. We know what we have right now at this point in their development playing with Lafrenaire, Kakkko, and Chytil together as a unit.

 

As for your Lafrenaire point, I think most here agree that he has talent; but guess what? It's not showing through at the level everyone would expect out of him being a number one overall draft pick. You could probably come up with a half dozen legitimate explanations as to why he is not breaking out and hitting the ground running with a 40+ point rookie campaign like alot of other top 3 draft picks(lack of training camp, deployment, power play time, conditioning, lack of confidence, physical development, etc....). What they should be doing by mixing up the lines and dispersing the "elite talent" with the 4 "U23 forwards" is using this as important assessment of what they will need to work on in the off season, and how the front office wants to position themselves against upcoming inevitable contract raises that are due to Strome and Buchnevich.

[Pete]

You are being argumentative and taking what I said out of context(feel free to insert a snarky comment in your rebuttal).

I'll repeat my point again in case you just skimmed my post for what you wanted to argue about. I was articulating that now that the Rangers are just about mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, they should be using the last 9 games as an assessment period and an opportunity to build confidence for the U23 forwards on the roster. We know what we have right now at this point in their development playing with Lafrenaire, Kakkko, and Chytil together as a unit.

 

As for your Lafrenaire point, I think most here agree that he has talent; but guess what? It's not showing through at the level everyone would expect out of him being a number one overall draft pick. You could probably come up with a half dozen legitimate explanations as to why he is not breaking out and hitting the ground running with a 40+ point rookie campaign like alot of other top 3 draft picks(lack of training camp, deployment, power play time, conditioning, lack of confidence, physical development, etc....). What they should be doing by mixing up the lines and dispersing the "elite talent" with the 4 "U23 forwards" is using this as important assessment of what they will need to work on in the off season, and how the front office wants to position themselves against upcoming inevitable contract raises that are due to Strome and Buchnevich.

 

I stopped reading here because it seems you just can't handle when someone rebuts your argument.

[Phil]

You are being argumentative and taking what I said out of context(feel free to insert a snarky comment in your rebuttal).

 

I'll repeat my point again in case you just skimmed my post for what you wanted to argue about. I was articulating that now that the Rangers are just about mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, they should be using the last 9 games as an assessment period and an opportunity to build confidence for the U23 forwards on the roster. We know what we have right now at this point in their development playing with Lafrenaire, Kakkko, and Chytil together as a unit.

 

As for your Lafrenaire point, I think most here agree that he has talent; but guess what? It's not showing through at the level everyone would expect out of him being a number one overall draft pick. You could probably come up with a half dozen legitimate explanations as to why he is not breaking out and hitting the ground running with a 40+ point rookie campaign like alot of other top 3 draft picks(lack of training camp, deployment, power play time, conditioning, lack of confidence, physical development, etc....). What they should be doing by mixing up the lines and dispersing the "elite talent" with the 4 "U23 forwards" is using this as important assessment of what they will need to work on in the off season, and how the front office wants to position themselves against upcoming inevitable contract raises that are due to Strome and Buchnevich.

 

Right. At the very least, at this point in the season, flip Blackwell and Kravtsov the same way you flipped Kreider and Kravtsov. I'd even flip those two on the power play. Lean on the kids. See what they have. It's a small sample size, but what's to lose?

[MuddyInTheMiddle]

Kakko is on pace to produce less than he did last season, and he was arguably the worst NHL regular in the entire league then. So, sure, he's shored up what he was giving up, but he has miles to go to on becoming a productive NHL player — you know, what he was drafted to be. They surely didn't take him second overall because they were enamored with his ability to be defensively responsible.

 

Miller is fine. He's not wowing anyone but for the fact he's an NHL regular at 21. But I alos don't ever expect him to be a major offensive contributor. He's Bouwmeester in my eyes. Steady, reliable, ice in his veins.

 

Chytil is in his third year in the league and is showing year-over-year progress, but it's marginal/incremental. He looks like a 45~ point player. That's what he's on pace for this season, at least, over 82 games. That's fine, but there are others taken right around him who are doing much better. Yamamoto, taken one pick later, has regressed this season but was a near point-per-game player last season. Josh Norris is second on a really bad Senators team in scoring this season. Eeli Tolvanen put it together and is a 0.63 P/GP player (52 over 82) for the Preds.

 

The late first round class from 2016 isn't doing much, but the late class from 2015 (20s picks) have also made major inroads. Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic.

 

Again — how much of this is Quinn's fault versus players? I don't know. I just know you can't fire teams, and coaches tend to take the fall when promising young players don't pay dividends not too long after they're drafted. Especially a first- or second-overall pick.

 

 

 

And of course I mean to make "certain people happy." Me. I'm talking about me. All my arguments are my arguments. :rofl:

 

The only thing that I would point out on your Chytil assessment is that marginal improvement is almost a doubling of his goals and points totals(yes completely agree that it is easier to double smaller point totals than larger ones), all with less average ice time than last season and almost no power play time.

 

It's worth noting that Buchnevich kind of followed a similar trajectory before breaking out as almost a point per game player this season, and he had the benefit of 3 full KHL seasons before coming to the NHL, compared to Chytil who made the jump to the NHL at 19 years old. If Buchnevich's point production is what Chytil ends up developing into(and I realize that is a big IF), I don't think anyone here would have a problem with that if it took another 2-3 seasons of that same kind of marginal improvement to get there.

[Ozzy]

Chytil's production is one thing, and that's cool if he can marginally increase like Buch. I like Chytil's promise, and I think he has a lot of talent. The thing about Chytil is that I'm not sure where he fits on this team....or if he actually does.

 

He's not really a 3rd/4th line center in my eyes, because I don't feel he's very physical, and is a tough match up against bigger teams. Strome has seemingly locked up that #2 center spot, and I think it's his going forward. That being said, Chytil is a great bargaining chip in my opinion, to bring in a much more physical player that can add to the mix of what I believe we need to be a playoff team next season.

 

The Rangers seem to be very soft team, and one-dimensional.

 

A Tom Wilson type I think would do this team wonders.

 

Who knows, maybe we have that player in our system already, but Chytil I think serves more of a purpose being a bargaining chip to acquire some pieces to the puzzle that we're going to need going forward.

[Keirik]

Kakko is on pace to produce less than he did last season, and he was arguably the worst NHL regular in the entire league then. So, sure, he's shored up what he was giving up, but he has miles to go to on becoming a productive NHL player — you know, what he was drafted to be. They surely didn't take him second overall because they were enamored with his ability to be defensively responsible.

 

Miller is fine. He's not wowing anyone but for the fact he's an NHL regular at 21. But I alos don't ever expect him to be a major offensive contributor. He's Bouwmeester in my eyes. Steady, reliable, ice in his veins.

 

Chytil is in his third year in the league and is showing year-over-year progress, but it's marginal/incremental. He looks like a 45~ point player. That's what he's on pace for this season, at least, over 82 games. That's fine, but there are others taken right around him who are doing much better. Yamamoto, taken one pick later, has regressed this season but was a near point-per-game player last season. Josh Norris is second on a really bad Senators team in scoring this season. Eeli Tolvanen put it together and is a 0.63 P/GP player (52 over 82) for the Preds.

The late first round class from 2016 isn't doing much, but the late class from 2015 (20s picks) have also made major inroads. Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic.

 

Again — how much of this is Quinn's fault versus players? I don't know. I just know you can't fire teams, and coaches tend to take the fall when promising young players don't pay dividends not too long after they're drafted. Especially a first- or second-overall pick.

 

 

 

And of course I mean to make "certain people happy." Me. I'm talking about me. All my arguments are my arguments. :rofl:

 

And guys like Chytil go back to your argument about a homogeneal nature. Great, he’s making some progress but he’s giving you exactly the same type of player and play as other lines. He does not give you one thing you don’t have. Can he win faceoffs? No. Can he shut down anyone in a third line role? No. Is he even a third line type player in ANY way? No. So if you keep him you are only doing so to replace Strome to hope he one day matches what Strome already does. Does that even make sense? I’m not sure that’s the best strategy to build a team. That part is on Gorton.

[josh]

fuck this game. Isn't there another one tonight? Where's the fucking thread?!?!

 

 

[RJWantsTheCup]

When will the Rangers ever get a center that can win a faceoff?

[Phil]

The only thing that I would point out on your Chytil assessment is that marginal improvement is almost a doubling of his goals and points totals(yes completely agree that it is easier to double smaller point totals than larger ones), all with less average ice time than last season and almost no power play time.

 

It's worth noting that Buchnevich kind of followed a similar trajectory before breaking out as almost a point per game player this season, and he had the benefit of 3 full KHL seasons before coming to the NHL, compared to Chytil who made the jump to the NHL at 19 years old. If Buchnevich's point production is what Chytil ends up developing into(and I realize that is a big IF), I don't think anyone here would have a problem with that if it took another 2-3 seasons of that same kind of marginal improvement to get there.

 

Definitely. He's who I'm least concerned over among the U23s, too, even though I think he's probably trade bait. He feels like Elias-lite to me. Kind of slow and steady each year.

 

And guys like Chytil go back to your argument about a homogeneal nature. Great, he’s making some progress but he’s giving you exactly the same type of player and play as other lines. He does not give you one thing you don’t have. Can he win faceoffs? No. Can he shut down anyone in a third line role? No. Is he even a third line type player in ANY way? No. So if you keep him you are only doing so to replace Strome to hope he one day matches what Strome already does. Does that even make sense? I’m not sure that’s the best strategy to build a team. That part is on Gorton.

 

Right. That's why he's trade bait, IMO. The guys lower in the lineup are less productive clones of the ones higher in it. I'm not even sure he's a center. He's a perimeter player, so he's probably better on the wing by default.

[Ozzy]

When will the Rangers ever get a center that can win a faceoff?

 

Now I gotta come outta retirement??? ;)

 

...I'm even older than Jagr!!!

[RJWantsTheCup]

Now I gotta come outta retirement??? ;)

 

...I'm even older than Jagr!!!

 

There’s always the 40 and over league. You can play against Dan Hill.

 

 

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[Ozzy]

There’s always the 40 and over league. You can play against Dan Hill.

 

 

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I'd rather play guitar with him!!

 

That mad man called me up on stage at Irish Times 3 weeks ago to do a few songs with him. We did an unreal version of Won't get Fooled Again!! I wish you wouldda been there for that one!!!

 

Ronin the bartender goes to me, "Ozzy, I didn't know you knew how to play guitar!"....I told him "Neither did I!!!" :rofl:

[CBrowningPI]

I thought Laffy played one of his best games last night. Moving him up with Zib should have happened 20 games ago. Chytil has made a major jump over last season on his board work and being more relentless. I keep thinking about his beautiful pass to Bread for an easy goal. Would Chytils game improve if he took Stromes spot? Absolutely. Would he get the same level of production as Strome? Unfortunately we'll never know. The whole "kid line" philosophy about getting better matchups on the 3rd line was unsuccessful and should have been broken up after 20 games or so. Kreider looked good playing with Strome so I'd love to see Panarin- Zibanejad- Kravtsov for a couple of these shit games. I'd love to see Quinn really mix it up with like Panarin- Howden- Kakko or with Barron in place of Howden. I guess I'm saying I want to see the kids playing with vets in all kinds of combinations so we have a better understanding of what we have in our U23 players.