Who Will Be the Next Coach?

[Br4d]

Panthers bouncing back from the President's Trophy 1st round exit last year.  Avs won the year after they won the President's Trophy.  Bruins looking good next season.

[Pete]

People need to stop looking at Cups as the measure of good coaching. 

 

Barry Trotz has one and it took him almost his whole career to win it. Pat Quinn, Roger Nielsen, Jacques Martin, Lindy Ruff, all good coaches with no Cups. Pat Burns only had one.

 

Guys, the Cup is hard to win. Stop conflating winning a Cup with being a good coach.

[Cash or Czech]

2 hours ago, Br4d said:

Panthers bouncing back from the President's Trophy 1st round exit last year.  Avs won the year after they won the President's Trophy.  Bruins looking good next season.

Have you looked at their cap situation and pending UFAs? They’re losing Bergeron, Bertuzzi, Hathaway, Orlov, Krejci and filling that gap with $6mil. 

[jsm7302]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

People need to stop looking at Cups as the measure of good coaching. 

 

Barry Trotz has one and it took him almost his whole career to win it. Pat Quinn, Roger Nielsen, Jacques Martin, Lindy Ruff, all good coaches with no Cups. Pat Burns only had one.

 

Guys, the Cup is hard to win. Stop conflating winning a Cup with being a good coach.

So would you equate a solid regular season as good coaching? GG got us there and also won a few rounds in the playoffs last year.

 

What metric would you say is pertinent to a good coach?

[Albatrosss]

1 minute ago, jsm7302 said:

So would you equate a solid regular season as good coaching? GG got us there and also won a few rounds in the playoffs last year.

 

What metric would you say is pertinent to a good coach?

Penis size

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, CCCP said:

Penis size

 

You beat me to it!!!  LOL

[siddious]

14 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So would you equate a solid regular season as good coaching? GG got us there and also won a few rounds in the playoffs last year.

 

What metric would you say is pertinent to a good coach?

Winning in general is so dependent on a number of factors. Put quenville behind the bench of the flyers and I don’t think he turns them around any more so than Torts has for example. 
 

Like most things in life it’s nuanced and is a mix of having a good system, communication skills, hockey iq, motivation skills, and generally being a good man-manager. Having a solid roster and knowing how to make up deficiencies is a skill as well and one our last coach was oblivious to. 
 

its nearly impossible to answer that question with a straight forward answer. I’d say different guys can coach different teams better. But that’s on the GM. 
 

edit: and of course pen*s size

Edited May 26, 2023 by siddious

[Pete]

29 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So would you equate a solid regular season as good coaching? GG got us there and also won a few rounds in the playoffs last year.

 

What metric would you say is pertinent to a good coach?

GG didn't get us anywhere, Shesty did. 

 

I'd say a good coach is anyone who can get the players to buy into what they're selling in terms of systems and philosophies, and for what they're selling to be effective, and that leads to wins. 

 

But that's not the point, the point is there are plenty of good coaches who never won a cup

Edited May 26, 2023 by Pete

[jsm7302]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

GG didn't get us anywhere, Shesty did. 

 

I'd say a good coach is anyone who can get the players to buy into what they're selling in terms of systems and philosophies, and for what they're selling to be effective, and that leads to wins. 

 

But that's not the point, the point is there are plenty of good coaches who never won a cup

Valid point that goes for players also *cough* Hank *cough*.

 

I'm gunna stick with Phil here and go with Leach due to being around the winning cultures of different successful organizations. Obviously multiple people have seen something in this guy.

[The Dude]

15 hours ago, jsm7302 said:

More recent success for Sullivan.

He's done jack shit in 6 years with Crosby, Malkin and an array of decent players. A bunch of 1st round exits and missed the playoffs this year.

 

I'd think Laviolette has had less to work with in the same timespan. Sullivan won his last cup against Laviolette. 

 

IDK, Laviolettes overall body of work should make him a much more talked about candidate. A bit more than Sullivan (IMO), who needed  a dynasty type roster to win his cups and has done nothing before or after those years. 

 

I don't get the appeal in some of the favorites being named and lauded (besides Q).  

 

 

 

 

[The Dude]

13 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

 

Laviolette hasn't won anything in 20 years.

 

Crosby carried him to a couple cups, what happened the prior years?

 

The Rangers were collection of 60 point players when he was an assistant.  Of course the PP sucked.

 

Laviolette atleast has gone to conference finals and a couple more cup appearances over those years. He has kind of a track record. He's won and has been close many times. I think that demands some merit. 

 

He hasn't needed dynasty type rosters or all time greats (like Sullivan) to achieve what are very good results. He's shown an ability to win with mixed rosters as well as develop some of the games better players over that timespan (except in Washington). Something that doesn’t get any attention. Odd , since that's exactly the type of roster the Rangers have right now.  They need a coach that can develop while trying to win  

 

Sullivan wouldn't be the worst hire, but it's also a lot of plotting and hoping, just to get a guy that doesn't wow you with any sort of consistency of winning or developing. Now that I think about it.  I don't understand how Sullivan wasn't tossed with Hextall. The Penguins haven't been much to talk about since their last cup. 

 

 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, jsm7302 said:

What metric would you say is pertinent to a good coach?

IMO, consistency should be a gauge. Not necessarily winning the cup, but division record,  how often the coaches teams advance in the playoffs. The mix of the players he does this with. 

 

With that last sentence,  I suggest looking at the rosters Laviolette has done well with. "Well"- meaning, regular season accomplishments,  conference finals and cup finals.

 

He's brought along a lot of rookies and young players up until he got to Washington.  He also has a knack for getting use out of scrap heap players (which he did with Washington, but didn't get winning results). 

 

I'll do a list if anyone is interested. 

 

 

By the way he's a former Ranger player, for those who need this homegrown "our guy" attachment. 

 

[Long live the King]

23 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

Laviolette atleast has gone to conference finals and a couple more cup appearances over those years. He has kind of a track record. He's won and has been close many times. I think that demands some merit. 

 

He hasn't needed dynasty type rosters or all time greats (like Sullivan) to achieve what are very good results. He's shown an ability to win with mixed rosters as well as develop some of the games better players over that timespan (except in Washington). Something that doesn’t get any attention. Odd , since that's exactly the type of roster the Rangers have right now.  They need a coach that can develop while trying to win  

 

Sullivan wouldn't be the worst hire, but it's also a lot of plotting and hoping, just to get a guy that doesn't wow you with any sort of consistency of winning or developing. Now that I think about it.  I don't understand how Sullivan wasn't tossed with Hextall. The Penguins haven't been much to talk about since their last cup. 

 

 

 

Sullivan was in Pitt for 7 and a half years.  They had 2 first round picks and traded all their prospects during that time.  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Guentzel, a 3rd round pick?  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Rust, a 3rd round pick?  John Marino was a 6th rounder and finished 8th in Calder voting.  Coach had nothing to do with it?  Jared McCann didn't develop at all in Pitt?  He also coached 18 and 20-year-old Bergeron.

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, Long live the King said:

 

Sullivan was in Pitt for 7 and a half years.  They had 2 first round picks and traded all their prospects during that time.  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Guentzel, a 3rd round pick?  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Rust, a 3rd round pick?  John Marino was a 6th rounder and finished 8th in Calder voting.  Coach had nothing to do with it?  Jared McCann didn't develop at all in Pitt?  He also coached 18 and 20-year-old Bergeron.

Maybe he can make Laf and Kakko into Sid and Malkin!!!

[Sod16]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

 

Laviolette atleast has gone to conference finals and a couple more cup appearances over those years. He has kind of a track record. He's won and has been close many times. I think that demands some merit. 

 

He hasn't needed dynasty type rosters or all time greats (like Sullivan) to achieve what are very good results. He's shown an ability to win with mixed rosters as well as develop some of the games better players over that timespan (except in Washington). Something that doesn’t get any attention. Odd , since that's exactly the type of roster the Rangers have right now.  They need a coach that can develop while trying to win  

 

Sullivan wouldn't be the worst hire, but it's also a lot of plotting and hoping, just to get a guy that doesn't wow you with any sort of consistency of winning or developing. Now that I think about it.  I don't understand how Sullivan wasn't tossed with Hextall. The Penguins haven't been much to talk about since their last cup. 

 

 

Incidentally, if you didn't like the fact that the Rangers did not show up for a Game 7, you might note that Sullivan's team did not show up for a pivotal game that would have put them in the playoffs, losing at home to the mighty Blackhawks. 

[The Dude]

36 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Sullivan was in Pitt for 7 and a half years.  They had 2 first round picks and traded all their prospects during that time.  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Guentzel, a 3rd round pick?  Sullivan gets no credit for developing Rust, a 3rd round pick?  John Marino was a 6th rounder and finished 8th in Calder voting.  Coach had nothing to do with it?  Jared McCann didn't develop at all in Pitt?  He also coached 18 and 20-year-old Bergeron.

And what'd he win when he developed them? I'm talking about getting results and advancing in the playoffs,  while also developing young players. The Pens haven't gotten out of the 1st round inn4 years. Out of the 2nd in 5. 

 

You're kinda missing the objective of my post. Did I even say Sullivan hasn't developed ANY players? I've reserved that take for Knoblauch. But.. OK. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by The Dude

[Long live the King]

23 minutes ago, The Dude said:

And what'd he win when he developed them? I'm talking about getting results and advancing in the playoffs,  while also developing young players. The Pens haven't gotten out of the 1st round inn4 years. Out of the 2nd in 5. 

 

You're kinda missing the objective of my post. Did I even say Sullivan hasn't developed ANY players? I've reserved that take for Knoblauch. But.. OK. 

 

During the 2nd Cup Sullivan won, 22 year old Guentzel led the team with 13 goals and had 21 points in 25 games.  22 year old Olli Maatta was their #3 dman playing over 20 min a night.

 

Laviolette in Washington:  2 first round exits and a missed playoff

Laviolette in Nashville:  first round exit, second round exit, cup final loss to Sullivan, second round exit, first round exit, fired mid season

Laviolette in Philadelphia:  Took over mid-season went to the cup, 2 second round exits, missed playoffs, and fired after 3 games.  Seems they went downhill under him.

Laviolette in Carolina:  Took over mid-season missed the playoffs, won a cup, 2 missed playoffs, fired mid-season (1 of only 3 teams to miss the playoffs after winning the cup in the last 50 years).

Laviolette on Long Island: 2 first round exits

 

Color me unimpressed with Laviolette's ability to advance in the playoffs.

[Scott]

LaGreca on the Kay show just said he believes there's a real shot Sullivan is cut loose in Pitt and if it's not him he believes Laviolette will be the guy. 

 

[Albatrosss]

Gerad Gallant is available. Two 100 point seasons back to back and the ECF appearance in the last 2 years. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

I still think it’s going Knoblauch or someone else Drury thinks he has control of.  

[Br4d]

This is one of the really crappy openings right now.

 

Yes, it's an original 6 team.

 

Yes, it's in the Big Apple.

 

Yes, it will pay pretty well.

 

However

 

The team is half NMC's and young guys not fully productive.

 

The last coach just got fired after 2 seasons and 219 pts after getting to the ECF his first year.

 

There's no obvious answer to the even strength malaise that the team seems to have every season since the core was assembled in 2019 when Panarin and Trouba came onboard.

[Scott]

53 minutes ago, Br4d said:

This is one of the really crappy openings right now.

 

Yes, it's an original 6 team.

 

Yes, it's in the Big Apple.

 

Yes, it will pay pretty well.

 

However

 

The team is half NMC's and young guys not fully productive.

 

The last coach just got fired after 2 seasons and 219 pts after getting to the ECF his first year.

 

There's no obvious answer to the even strength malaise that the team seems to have every season since the core was assembled in 2019 when Panarin and Trouba came onboard.

Answers are:

- system

- system

- system

 

It's the Rangers it's one of the premier jobs in the league. A vet coach is gonna get that big guaranteed money for a few years. Although I do think you would have to be willing to kiss the ring on the GM, especially a first timer.  Little league Championship ring whatever it maybe., ok Avs 2001 .  

 

GG is gonna get 7M over the next two years after being shown the door. Not too shabby.

Edited May 26, 2023 by jsrangers

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

During the 2nd Cup Sullivan won, 22 year old Guentzel led the team with 13 goals and had 21 points in 25 games.  22 year old Olli Maatta was their #3 dman playing over 20 min a night.

 

Laviolette in Washington:  2 first round exits and a missed playoff

Laviolette in Nashville:  first round exit, second round exit, cup final loss to Sullivan, second round exit, first round exit, fired mid season

Laviolette in Philadelphia:  Took over mid-season went to the cup, 2 second round exits, missed playoffs, and fired after 3 games.  Seems they went downhill under him.

Laviolette in Carolina:  Took over mid-season missed the playoffs, won a cup, 2 missed playoffs, fired mid-season (1 of only 3 teams to miss the playoffs after winning the cup in the last 50 years).

Laviolette on Long Island: 2 first round exits

 

Color me unimpressed with Laviolette's ability to advance in the playoffs.

Odd you didn't compare the youth Laviolette had developed along the way. 

 

Cup win, 2 cup losses, bunch of advancement passed the 1st round, looks OK to me as far as advancing in the playoffs.  Sullivan won 2 cups and then nothing but 1st round outs since. 

 

Not sure how you can say one is unimpressive while the other is, despite only having 2 actual advancement years. 

 

But ok. 

[Long live the King]

14 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Odd you didn't compare the youth Laviolette had developed along the way. 

 

Cup win, 2 cup losses, bunch of advancement passed the 1st round, looks OK to me as far as advancing in the playoffs.  Sullivan won 2 cups and then nothing but 1st round outs since. 

 

Not sure how you can say one is unimpressive while the other is, despite only having 2 actual advancement years. 

 

But ok. 

 

Where is this going? Laviolette has coached like 3 times as many seasons.  He has more missed playoffs and first round exits than Sullivan has seasons coached.

 

The Penguins mortgaged their future to go for those cup wins.  We surprised they're old and injury plagued 4-5 years later?

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

This is one of the really crappy openings right now.

 

Yes, it's an original 6 team.

 

Yes, it's in the Big Apple.

 

Yes, it will pay pretty well.

 

However

 

The team is half NMC's and young guys not fully productive.

 

The last coach just got fired after 2 seasons and 219 pts after getting to the ECF his first year.

 

There's no obvious answer to the even strength malaise that the team seems to have every season since the core was assembled in 2019 when Panarin and Trouba came onboard.

Please stop LOL. Head Coach of the NY Rangers is never a crappy job.

 

The obvious answer to 5:5 is better coaching.